The New Birth

JonMarie · Bear Cub Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 608 Location: Pa.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

A person has the ability to seek God. Every one of us has some motivation in this life.

desire for gain or fear of loss

Psalm 69:32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.

Deut 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Acts 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

JB, I am only half calvinist.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6886 Location: USA

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

I don't think the Bible teaches a natural desire for God on the part of sinners. Romans 2 seems pretty clear that people in their natural state try to stifle what they know of God, or as Jesus once said, they love the darkness more than the light.

Perhaps part of what is happening when someone actually does begin to take an interest in God or spiritual matters is the convicting work of the Holy Spirit. Prior to anyone's conversion, there is a "before". Sometimes it may be a short period of time; for others it may be years. The Holy Spirit blows where he wishes, and moves at his own speed. The Gospels and Book of Acts provide many examples of the convicting work of the Spirit taking place in a variety of ways within the hearts of a variety of people.

I praise God, personally, for the fact that the natural man apart from God's Spirit does not welcome the truths of the Spirit (1 Cor. 2) and cannot even grasp them. You and I both know that if a person by nature could grasp them, that person would take all the credit for being so smart and insightful!

JonMarie · Bear Cub Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 608 Location: Pa.

Rev JP:

JonMarie · Bear Cub Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 608 Location: Pa.

Hi Don, you sound like a calvinist. If it is 100% of the Holy Spirit as you say, and God is willing that none perish, then all people will be saved. Are you a Universalist?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

JonMarie · Bear Cub Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 608 Location: Pa.

Welcome Herold!, sorry this is late in coming, but I must say I do love your post!

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

No, I am not a Calvinist (except in those places where Calvin agrees with me!).

But the Bible is pretty clear - we are all, in our natural condition, under God's wrath. We are all enemies of God. We not only do not please him, but we cannot please him. Those are just a smattering of the truths the Bible states about people as they are. Human nature is not inclined to see after him, but to run in the other direction. As Jesus said, people see the light and prefer the darkness. All these statements are about individual people, not groups.

And I think this aspect of what the Bible teaches is fully supported by the reality we see around us all the time - -human experience does not support the notion that people are naturally looking for the God of the Bible and seeking him out. Quite the opposite.

Now, thanks be to God, he does not just walk away from us and say "good riddance". He seeks us! He pursues us!

A person's turning to Christ is 100% the result of God's grace, the initiative of the Holy Spirit. Arminians believe that as do Calvinists, by the way. The reason that does not result in universalism is because the work of the Holy Spirit can be resisted, as the Bible also makes clear.

Our mortal minds have a hard time making these two strands of Bible doctrine fit together in a nice, neat system; but the Bible isn't intended to provide nice, neat answers to solve our rational curiosity . . . it is meant to reveal God as he actually is, and let us know of his eternal purpose which centers on Christ and the salvation he has procured for us.

Pete · Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:38 am Post subject:

Romans 8:7; "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." 8; "So they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Human nature is all about justifying the "me first" attitude. It is completely inmeshed in the physical world, and has an amazing capacity for for justifying all its actions.

As the entire history of the world points out, we humans, left to our own devices, continually self-destruct, and organized religion, including "Christianity", so-called, has led the way. We never learn - nor do we want to.

We don't "seek and find." We prefer, like sheep, to be led down the "broad way" by "wolves" to our own destruction. Humans are spiritually lazy.

GospelCompilation · Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: An Alternative View

Someone above mentioned that "the Bible is pretty clear - we are all, in our natural condition, under God's wrath. We are all enemies of God."

Yes, that is what Scripture says. But my wife and I have taken a good hard look at that idea and have come to a different conclusion. Would anyone like to hear it?

We were alienated from God. And we were enemies of God. But... not in reality. Paul wrote in Colossians 1:21 that "you were once alienated and enemies [of God]." But where were we alienated and enemies of God? In reality? No, he said, but rather, "in your mind." And why did we think we were alienated and enemies of God? "Because of wicked works." Because we did bad things, we began to think that God was going to kill us. But Paul said, "This was only in your mind." It was not reality.

My wife just reminded me of that famous quote in Isaiah 59:2 that says, "your iniquities have separated you from your God; and your sins have hidden His face from you, so He cannot hear." We always interpret that to mean that God separates Himself from us because of our sin... but if Paul is correct, then it probably means that we think we are separated from God because of our wicked works, and we think that He will no longer hear us.

Is that possible?

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6886 Location: USA

GC, does not scripture tell us that God cannot look upon sin?

Don, for the most part I agree with you and I believe you've answered Jon Marie splendidly regarding the questions she post in response to my post, thus I find no need to repeat what you have already offered.
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JP's Mind - my blog

Pete · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:16 am Post subject:

God doesn't separate himself from us, we separate ourselves from him.

GospelCompilation · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:11 am Post subject: Upon Two or Three Witnesses

Hi JP, you've asked an excellent question: "Does not scripture tell us that God cannot look upon sin?"

Let's put our heads together, then, and see if we can find at least two verses that back up that idea. After all, Scripture tells us in Deuteronomy 19:15 that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established." Of course, that rule really applies to the death sentence... but I think we can safely apply the principle here. Personally, I'm not comfortable building a belief system on just one verse.

Let us consider Isaiah 28:9-10, which asks: "Whom shall He teach knowledge? And whom shall He make to understand doctrine? For precept must be upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little."

So, I say, if we can find at least two verses that demonstrate the idea that "God cannot look upon sin," then we can safely rest our faith upon that belief. But, on the other hand, if we can't find two verses to support that idea... well, then... I suggest we abandon the idea.

What do you say?

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

The Bible does not tell us that we only think we are God's enemies. It tells us we were his enemies. It is God who needed to be reconciled to us first, as Paul says plainly in 2 Cor. 5. Only after he reconciled the world to himself, by finding a way to no longer hold our sins against us, could he then send out the message of reconciliation to us, urging us to now be reconciled to him.

It was while we were enemies that Christ died for us, Paul says in Romans 5. Now I wasn't even around when Christ died for me. I wasn't God's enemy even in my own thinking. But the fallen human race was God's enemy. Not in their own minds (most people don't think God is their enemy at all if they believe in him). They were God's enemy because they were "dead in trespasses and sin". Not just that they thought they were dead, but they were. Spiritually dead. Spiritually made alive in Christ. Not make-believe dead (or then it would also have to be make-believe alive). But truly dead.

If we miss what the Bible says about the objective reality of how God saw us, we'll miss a lot of truth about why he showed his love by sending his Son as a gift to a world that was under his wrath and condemned. Not in their own eyes, or their own minds, but in God's eyes.

JonMarie · Bear Cub Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 608 Location: Pa.

Don Fisher:

JonMarie · Bear Cub Joined: 18 Feb 2008 Posts: 608 Location: Pa.

Matthew 13:
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Does this mean that all the seeds are predetermined?
What kind of seed would be evil for 50 or so years and then be a good seed?

Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Who is the he in verse 30?