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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
| atoz wrote: |
I am just WAAAAAAAAAAY more scientifically mindsetted than you are
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No, you really aren't.
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atoz: aha? Well it takes one to know one!
I tkink you are so scientific!
So what does that make me?smile
| P1234567890 wrote: |
| atoz wrote: |
in terms of verifying as AE and BS and CS wd have done!
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That's interesting; where do you think Einstein and Sagan sat on the evolution issue? Hint: You can watch Sagan's biochem buddy at Cornell doing a more sophisticated version of the Miller-Urey experiment in Cosmos. |
atoz: Let me get AE & BP on the net to answer you personally: we have that kinda realtionship, do AE, BP and me!smile
"What has perhaps been overlooked
[ in that experiment, due to irrational hatred of the irrational and masses of information and etc]
is
the irrational,
the inconsistent,
the droll,
even the insane,
which nature, inexhaustibly operative, implants into the individual, seemingly for her own amusement. These things are singled out only in the crucible of one's own mind."
Albert Einstein
"Love has reasons which reason [based on Hate of any reason or any fact or any word] cannot understand [or see and therefore is blind to]."
Blaise Pascal
Your motion, as BP wd say!smile
One more:
"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."
F. Scott Fitzgerald
How do you rate yourself on opposites?smile
in the humility & sanity of Love for the sane and insane, the arrogant and the humble, the imaginative and the unimaginative, and all pairs of opposite words or ideas,
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
"What has perhaps been overlooked
[ in that experiment, due to irrational hatred of the irrational and masses of information and etc]
is
the irrational,
the inconsistent,
the droll,
even the insane,
which nature, inexhaustibly operative, implants into the individual, seemingly for her own amusement. These things are singled out only in the crucible of one's own mind."
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And do you know what Einstein was talking about here? Hint: It wasn't evolution! He was an atheist!
| atoz wrote: |
"Love has reasons which reason [based on Hate of any reason or any fact or any word] cannot understand [or see and therefore is blind to]."
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First of all, Pascal lived well before the theory of evolution was developed, and secondly he certainly understood the evils of the excesses of religion.
And what about Carl Sagan? It seems you forgot to 'quote him on evolution'.
Atoz, I'm about to tell you a FACT, and I really want you to pay attention:
The people who are experts in science are called scientists. Scientists make up what is called the 'scientific community' or 'scientific mainstream'. They publish their work in journals and conference proceedings.
Now here is the fact: If you were to survey all of the members of the scientific community (and especially the relevant ones), they would *overwhelmingly* agree that evolution is true.
The people most qualified to do science agree with evolution, and the people who disagree with evolution are almost all non-scientists. What does that tell you?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
| atoz wrote: |
"What has perhaps been overlooked
[ in that experiment, due to irrational hatred of the irrational and masses of information and etc]
is
the irrational,
the inconsistent,
the droll,
even the insane,
which nature, inexhaustibly operative, implants into the individual, seemingly for her own amusement. These things are singled out only in the crucible of one's own mind."
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And do you know what Einstein was talking about here? Hint: It wasn't evolution! He was an atheist!
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atoz: do you know what an Axiom or Universal Constant is?
A principle that applies comprehensively to ALL situations!
smile
| P1234567890 wrote: |
| atoz wrote: |
"Love has reasons which reason [based on Hate of any reason or any fact or any word] cannot understand [or see and therefore is blind to]."
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First of all, Pascal lived well before the theory of evolution was developed, and secondly he certainly understood the evils of the excesses of religion.
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atoz; do you know what an Axiom or Universal Constant is?
A principle that applies comprehensively to ALL situations!
smile
| P1234567890 wrote: |
And what about Carl Sagan? It seems you forgot to 'quote him on evolution'.
Atoz, I'm about to tell you a FACT, and I really want you to pay attention:
The people who are experts in science are called scientists. Scientists make up what is called the 'scientific community' or 'scientific mainstream'. They publish their work in journals and conference proceedings.
Now here is the fact: If you were to survey all of the members of the scientific community (and especially the relevant ones), they would *overwhelmingly* agree that evolution is true.
The people most qualified to do science agree with evolution, and the people who disagree with evolution are almost all non-scientists. What does that tell you? |
atoz: P123, you are like a kid who takes security in the fact that so many adults believe so too!
What about you?
Wd you change if they ALL gave up on Evolution?
What about all the people who thought the world was flat?
Cd u imagine CC or AE saying:
Oh well, the overwhelming majority of the scientists in the known world believes that the world is flat! No use going over the deep end over this, guys.
ok?
Queen, here are your P and N and SM back to you!
Heya, let's go fishing!
Deal!
sigh
Take the road less traveled!
ThiMk!
with The Principle of Love that loves and so applies itself to all words and therefore to all situations expressed in words, which are all situations,smile
atoz |
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The Barbarian
Hamster
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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If even a significant percentage of biologists denied evolution, it would seriously shake my confidence in the theory, even if I continued to think it was the best explanation for life's diversity.
But that isn't likely to happen, given the evidence. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| The Barbarian wrote: | If even a significant percentage of biologists denied evolution, it would seriously shake my confidence in the theory, even if I continued to think it was the best explanation for life's diversity.
But that isn't likely to happen, given the evidence. |
And in fact, virtually NO professional biologists deny evolution... The people who understand science say that it's fact.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: |
In the mid 1990s I read "Shattering the Myths Darwinism" by Richard Milton. In chapter 18 Milton documents the rise and fall of Java Man...... here's the story:
In 1868 Ernst Haeckel predicted that a speechless ape-man, pithecanthropus, would be found somewhere between Madagascar and Indonesia. Then in 1887 a Dutch anatomist, Eugene Dubois, set sail for the Dutch colony of Java to search for Pithecanthropus. Dubois was given convict workers to do the excavations. Dubois didn't do any digging and didn't record the exact locations of the digs. The convicts simpy delivered about 10,000 cubic meters of sediments to his house in Java where he sifted through and found a tooth, a piece of skullcap, and a leg bone. Dubois had discovered Pithecanthropus erectus, upright ape-man, more commonly known as "Java Man".
Needless to say, Java Man is no longer considered evidence for evolution. But it was for nearly a century. |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
This is false. Java Man is no longer considered to be one of our ancestors, but is DEFINITELY still an excellent example for evolution. |
An excellent example for evolution? Do tell! If Milton reported this correctly then Java Man is about half a step above Nebraska Man.
| Quote: |
Dubois had persuaded the government to allow him to carry out a complete paleontological survey of Java under his full time supervision. He was given convict workers to carry out the excavations and military personnel to supervise the digging. Dubois himself, however, did not participate in the fieldwork and contended himself with examining each season's find on the veranda of his house where they were periodically delivered by the convict crew.
In 1891 Dubois made two important finds amongst the bones dumped on his veranda. The fossils were a tooth and a scullcap which had been found a month apart in the same fossiliferous bed but in locations that were not known exactly because no one was recording the finds.
~Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, chap 18~ |
Is that right!? "No one was recording the finds"! "Convict workers (convicts!) did the excavations! And this is an excellent example of evidence for evolution! For all we know some convict could have thrown a piece of bone in the dirt pile in hopes of Dubois finding it and then cancelling the digs so that the prisoner could get out of his work detail!
And they put Java Man in students science books for the next 80 years! Yes, an excellent example for evolution! Bene! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6279
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: | | You mean people like Michael Behe, author of "Edge of Evoution", who has a Ph.D. in Biology |
You meant "a B.S. in chemistry and a PH.D in biochemistry," right?
| rufus wrote: | | author of "Icons of Evolution", who also has a Ph.D. in biology? |
You mean "a Ph.D. in Religious Studies and a Ph.D. in molecular and cell biology," right?
| rufus wrote: | | Is that what you mean? |
Is that what you meant? Just because a degree has "bio-" in it doesn't mean it can be honestly classed as "a Ph.D. in biology."
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Bene! = Latin for excellent.
Sorry about that FFT. You must have thought I wrote Behe! My eyesight ain't as good as it once was either. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6279
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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What?
Look at what I quoted.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: | | In the mid 1990s I read "Shattering the Myths Darwinism" by Richard Milton. In chapter 18 Milton documents the rise and fall of Java Man. |
So tell me P1234567890 did you actually read the book?
What do you think about Richard Dawkins attempt to suppress any evidence that contradicts the accepted Darwinian doctrines including that which Dawkins never even read? Documented in Chapter 24 of Milton's book. Also in the Preface of the 1997 edition? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Milton really and truly doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't have any background in biology, so why on Earth would we put any stock into his anti-scientific claims?
All of the reviews of his book which were done by *real* scientists showed it to be the worst kind of anti-scientific, fallacy-ridden garbage.
Despite being a non-expert, his opinions are the exact opposite of mainstream scientific consensus IN A NUMBER OF SCIENTIFIC AREAS. He thinks that he knows better than all of the experts out there.
That goes beyond extreme arrogance. That's a delusion of grandeur.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: Whatever happened to Java Man? |
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He switched to decaf lattes'?
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
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rufus
Ferret
Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 113
Location: about 20 miles west of Lake Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Milton in chapter 24 of Shattering the Myths of Darwinism wrote: |
The taboo on debating Darwinism extends to the broadcast media as well...One rare and honorable exception was NBC's decision in 1996 to broadcast the film The Mysterious Origins of Man...The producers recieved dozens of abusive responses...They included such terms as; "horrible," "atrocious," "garbage," "anti-intellectual trash," "evil," "deliberate, fraudulent misinformaion," "claptrap," "utter rubbish," "nonsense," "unadulterated hogwash," "bullshit," "a piece of junk," "crap," and "shame on you, liars and opportunists."
You might imagine that these remarks came from the keyboards of pharmaceutically challenged undergraduates or semiliterate teenagers. In fact they are the words of senior scientists and academics (including several professors) from the University of California at Berkeley, State University of New York, and Wisconsin, New Mexico State, Colorado, Northwestern, and other universities. |
| rufus wrote: |
So tell me P1234567890 did you actually read the book? |
| P1234567890 wrote: | | All of the reviews of his book which were done by *real* scientists showed it to be the worst kind of anti-scientific, fallacy-ridden garbage. |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
I'm a grad student finishing my Ph.D. |
Considering that many of those "senior scientists and academics" who sent letters to the editor back in 1996 are now getting older and nearing retirement we can feel confident that there will be a new generation of scholars to replace them. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8206
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:34 am Post subject: |
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| rufus wrote: |
Considering that many of those "senior scientists and academics" who sent letters to the editor back in 1996 are now getting older and nearing retirement we can feel confident that there will be a new generation of scholars to replace them. |
Yes, and they will be *MORE* critical of this terrible, anti-scientific book than the previous generation.
The author is not an expert. He is writing outside his area of expertise. Virtually all of the experts disagree with him. The guy hates science. I can't for the life of me understand why you would give weight to his words.
Just because something is written down in a book doesn't make it true. You understand that, right?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 988
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
And in fact, virtually NO professional biologists deny evolution... The people who understand science say that it's fact. |
Scientists can only deal with the observable. Evolution has never been observed or substanciated in any way. It is still a theory, conjecture, biased opinion. To say that evolution is a scientific fact, is dishonest. |
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