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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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 Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | The people do not exist for the sake of the organization, as is the case with authoritarian religious groups including the Witnesses, but the church exists for the people. |
If the organization condones corruption, and doesn't try to follow Paul's counsel here, then the organization is not the true Christian organization. |
This is quite significant. Your "response" does not even address my point. It side-steps it or dismisses it. You don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole, do you?
Your point that the church should follow Paul's counsel is correct of course. But you do not even touch the issue of what spirit any action by the organization is done in. You've stated you disagree with my point that Paul was more concerned with this man's salvation than with "keeping the congregation clean". I wish every Witness out there could read that. I hope they find out the contempt that their organization really has for them.
People come to a Christian organization for help. They come with needs. And you deny that your organization is concerned about them, and is instead more focused on building a "congregation" where it looks like no one falls into any of the multitude of human weaknesses that there are, no one goes through any struggles, and everyone enjoys continuous victory. And if they fail, they're discarded as unfit for the organization. You've as much as told us then that the Witness organization has nothing to offer the needing and hurting.
I have pointed out already, all of the Witnesses, you included, and all of the rest of us as well still commit some of the sins we commited before becoming believers in Christ. Know what that means? You and the Witnesses all practice sin! There is a continuation, as you said! I wish the Witnesses would disfellowship all their members. It would be doing them the greatest favor they could do them.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | You speak against Jehovah's Witnesses for displaying works and pass a motive judgement saying they are trying to earn salvation. They are not. They are backing up their faith. Your motive judgement mean you lack love.  |
If the Witnesses truly believed that, then when there is a problem with someone's works, they would recognize that it is due to a root problem with that person's faith, and would trust God and preach the Word so that faith might come by hearing the Word, and the works resolve themselves, with the help of the Spirit of God.
Instead, they pass judgement on the works of others. And not only their own, but the Witnesses believe all of us who are not Witnesses are lost.
The Witness organization may claim they believe that salvation is by faith in Christ, but in practice, they demonstrate that their concern is with works, not faith, and that works are the yardstick by which they measure the righteousness of others. If the epistle of Jude applies to anyone, it is not me but the Witness organization.
| Quote: | 3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. |
The actions of the Witnesses speak louder than their words. I don't claim to be perceptive above anyone else, and I see clearly that the Witness religion is nothing but another snare set by fleshly minded men, luring people sincerely seeking God with promises of knowlege and truth and a better life in God's kingdom, but instead snaring them with condemnation, control, intimidation, and works-righteousness.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451
Last edited by Zathrus on Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:58 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:24 am Post subject: |
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Here is some more scripture to consider. A follow up on the action Paul took in response to the man having a relationship with his father's wife.
2 Corinthians 2
| Quote: | 1But I determined this with myself, that I would not come again to you in heaviness.
2For if I make you sorry, who is he then that maketh me glad, but the same which is made sorry by me?
3And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is the joy of you all.
4For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.
5But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.
6Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. |
Paul was not discarding the man who'd fallen into this fault, as todays authoritarian religious groups are prone to do. He was not considering the man as an unbeliever. it was with great pain that he took the action which he took, and the passage above shows that he later asked the Corinthian church to welcome the man back.
The leadership in today's controlling, authoritarian and fleshly minded religious groups have no grounds to compare themselves to Paul, nor their actions to his.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Regarding 1 Cor 5:5, read it carefully. It isn't speaking about the disfellowshiped man's spirit, but the spirit that effects the congregation, or gathered people who judge such matters.  Paul was absent in body but present in spirit, who judged already as if present. 
3 I for one, although absent in body but present in spirit, have certainly judged already, as if I were present, the man who has worked in such a way as this, 4 that in the name of our Lord Jesus, when YOU are gathered together, also my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 YOU hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
The spirit that may be saved is the spirit of the others. This is why reading in context is so important.
If this action shocks the man to his senses, and he repents and turns around, great!!! Regardless, the spirit of the congregation must remain without leaven.
6 YOUR [cause for] boasting is not fine. Do YOU not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump? 7 Clear away the old leaven, that YOU may be a new lump, according as YOU are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed. 8 Consequently let us keep the festival, not with old leaven, neither with leaven of badness and wickedness, but with unfermented cakes of sincerity and truth.
Hmmm. What did Paul mean by this leaven? What could be included in this leaven of badness and wickedness???
9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | I provide you with scripture, you provide me with your philosophies. |
Not to worry. I have not yet begun to quote scripture. |
Ooo. I can't wait. Are you going to show more wonderful insight like this?
All you are doing is trying to use scripture to support your philosophies. I can see how you could be confused with this one, but the fact is you speak against the Witnesses for following the scriptures like these. You are speaking against both the Witnesses and the first century Christians.
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | If the organization condones corruption, and doesn't try to follow Paul's counsel here, then the organization is not the true Christian organization. |
This is quite significant. Your "response" does not even address my point. It side-steps it or dismisses it. You don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole, do you?
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Another motive judgement. Because you cannot comprehend what I am saying I am not responding???
I don't disagree with your point, yet the organization must follow scripture if it is to benefit the people. Do you get it now? You were speaking against us for following this scripture in 1 Cor 5. You were wrong. The congregation exists for the people, yet if you purposly allow leaven in the congregation you harm those trying to be faithful.
| Zathrus wrote: | | If the Witnesses truly believed that, then when there is a problem with someone's works, they would recognize that it is due to a root problem with that person's faith, and would trust God and preach the Word so that faith might come by hearing the Word, and the works resolve themselves, with the help of the Spirit of God. |
So what you are saying is that we should ignor the counsel at 1 Cor 5. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | The actions of the Witnesses speak louder than their words. |
Agreed. Following the counsel in the scriptures proves who we are. You dancing around it indicates who you are. You appear to be the one turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 4) Your Bible says lasciviousness.
lasciviousness--1. Given to or expressing lust; lecherous.
2. Exciting sexual desires; salacious.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I see clearly that the Witness religion is nothing but another snare set by fleshly minded men, luring people sincerely seeking God with promises of knowlege and truth and a better life in God's kingdom, but instead snaring them with condemnation, control, intimidation, and works-righteousness. |
You made it clear you believe this way, however you are speaking against the first century congregation as well. To pretend the scriptures are on your side is contrary to your words. You say judging brothers for practicing gross sins is wrong. Paul showed you are wrong.
Regarding 2 Cor 2, the man repented and turned around. If he didn't then 1 Cor 5 would be applied.
6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him],
If the man rejected the rebuke and continue practicing the sin then 1 Cor 5 is applied.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | You appear to be the one turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 4) Your Bible says lasciviousness.
lasciviousness--1. Given to or expressing lust; lecherous.
2. Exciting sexual desires; salacious. |
I expected you'd zero in on that and try to suggest that my applying that passage in Jude to the Witnesses doesn't fit because they discard people for having hangups or struggles in the sex area.
Your applying Jude's statement to biological sexual behavior again demonstrates the fleshly mindedness of the Witness organization.
In the 1st century church, we read that there were those who taught that observance of Mosaic laws was still necessary, even to the inclusion of traditions such as ritual circumcision. Certainly these people would not have been encouraging sexual promiscuity.
And we read Paul's statement that because he taught that salvation was not dependent on one's works but on Christ's sacrifice, that others slanderously reported that the Christians were teaching one should do wrong so that good may come of it, as you appear to be saying of me.
I do not know of a place where it is documented that there were those who actually were encouraging the practice of sexual immorality using God's undeserved mercy as an excuse.
It is far more believeable that Jude was speaking of spiritual adultery, which I will not go into a lesson on here, but which the Witness organization itself tries to commit.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451
Last edited by Zathrus on Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
 Do you actually believe the things you write?
| Zathrus wrote: | | I expected you'd zero in on that and try to suggest that my applying that passage in Jude to the Witnesses doesn't fit because they discard people for having hangups or struggles in the sex area. |
So we should ignor 1 Cor 5:13???
| Zathrus wrote: | | Your applying Jude's statement to biological sexual behavior again demonstrates the fleshly mindedness of the Witness organization. |
Sure. Why not? Oh! Because it speaks against your stand. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | I do not know of a place where it is documented that there were those who actually were encouraging the practice of sexual immorality using God's underserved mercy as an excuse. |
Just look at your beliefs. You have documented it for us.
| Zathrus wrote: | | It is far more believeable that Jude was speaking of spiritual adultery |
Friendship with the world is spiritual adultery. That is wrong as well.
Eph 4:17 This, therefore, I say and bear witness to in [the] Lord, that YOU no longer go on walking just as the nations also walk in the unprofitableness of their minds, 18 while they are in darkness mentally, and alienated from the life that belongs to God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the insensibility of their hearts. 19 Having come to be past all moral sense, they gave themselves over to loose conduct to work uncleanness of every sort with greediness.
Regardless, we can do neither if we want to please God.
Do you have moral sense?
Let me get this straight. Please answer: Is your current message that we shouldn't apply the counsel at 1 Cor 5:13???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Let me get this straight. Please answer: Is your current message that we shouldn't apply the counsel at 1 Cor 5:13??? |
| I wrote: | | Your point that the church should follow Paul's counsel is correct of course. |
Far be it from me to say that we know better than Paul, especially since we learn so much from Paul. Would God the Witnesses listened to him more carefully.
However, I am not so sure, as the Witnesses seem to be, that we are in the same situation as the Corinthian church nor of the man concerning whom this action was taken.
Your point concerning the spirit which Paul was concerned about saving is interesting, especially in light of the verses that come after. However, in verse 5 Paul plainly is contrasting the flesh with the spirit. Why would he contrast the flesh of the immoral man with the spirit of another group of people? And why one spirit? They were many.
Certainly, he was greatly concerned for the other members of the Corinthian church. Not for the organization, but for them as individuals. He cared for them as people. And he also cared for this man and took the action he did with great sorrow. From what you have posted, the Witnesses can claim none of these things.
It's also becoming evident that scriptures regarding the salvation of man need to be looked at, for it seems from this dialogue with you that the Witnesses have formulated their doctrine of salvation based not on salvation scriptures, but on passages dealing with these types of church discipline matters. And of course from their eschatology. I promised to quote more scriptures, and I shall. I'll be preparing a look at basic salvation according to the Bible.
PS: What you have referred to as "my philosophies" are understandings of over-arching Biblical principles. These cannot be understood by lifting snippets of scriptures out of context, but by understanding the message of the gospel as a whole.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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JimD
Cobra
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 499
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Zathrus:
| Quote: | | PS: What you have referred to as "my philosophies" are understandings of over-arching Biblical principles. These cannot be understood by lifting snippets of scriptures out of context, but by understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. |
Right on! Would to God that everyone could hear and heed this concept. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | However, I am not so sure, as the Witnesses seem to be, that we are in the same situation as the Corinthian church nor of the man concerning whom this action was taken. |
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
The scriptures are there for our benefit. You can pretend one scripture trumps another, but you should try to see how one scripture fits in with the others. For now, we have the scriptural counsel on how to deal with people in the congregation who practice gross sins.
1 Cor 5:9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
| Zathrus wrote: | | PS: What you have referred to as "my philosophies" are understandings of over-arching Biblical principles. These cannot be understood by lifting snippets of scriptures out of context, but by understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. |
Between the two of us the one lifting "snippets of scriptures out of context" is you. The one closing his eyes to other scriptures is you. Your whole point of 2 Cor 2 was out of context with this discussion as that man repented and was kept in the congregation.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Your point concerning the spirit which Paul was concerned about saving is interesting, especially in light of the verses that come after. However, in verse 5 Paul plainly is contrasting the flesh with the spirit. Why would he contrast the flesh of the immoral man with the spirit of another group of people? And why one spirit? They were many. |
I thought these different meanings of spirit were understood by most people.
Do you comprehend that people don't automatically become spirits when they die? Some will be resurrected as spirits to rule with Christ in God's kingdom. But not people that practice gross sins.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
If you believe "spirit here means such a one becomes a spirit creature, such an understanding of 1 Cor 5:5 would obviously not be correct. Direct contradiction with other scriptures. Such ones wouldn't be resurrected as spirits.
You evidently don't comprehend what spirit can mean. Spirit can have many meanings. Obviously, Spirit can refer to the Holy Spirit. Spirit can mean spirit creatures. There is the spirit, or life breath, in man that keeps him alive. There is a spirit of a man that dominates his thinking and guides his actions and life coarse. A group of people can have the same spirit as well.
Eph 2:2 the spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience.
To be clear about what you are saying, which of these meanings do you think 1 Cor is refering to? The entire context is about removing the leaven to keep it from spreading in keeping the congregation clean.
| Zathrus wrote: | | From what you have posted, the Witnesses can claim none of these things. |
Not if you read with closed eyes. Many who were disfellowshiped exert themselves vigorously, make the effort and come back. Disfellowshiping is an act of love, for both the congregation and the person disfellowshiped. To allow someone to continue unfettered in a coarse the means eternal destruction is not loving. Were you able to understand this?
| Zathrus wrote: | | It's also becoming evident that scriptures regarding the salvation of man need to be looked at, for it seems from this dialogue with you that the Witnesses have formulated their doctrine of salvation based not on salvation scriptures, |
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
Does that mean you can pick and choose which scriptures to follow? NO! We must understand them all, and how one fits another. To take a few, and use them to trump others is not the way of understanding, but of blindness.
Zathrus. Just because we cannot earn salvation by our works doesn't mean we do not need to try to do what is right. Without such works our faith is dead. If we gain life, it is by the grace of God, a gift, because even if we try we will not be perfect. BUT WE NEED TO TRY!!!!! Faith in Jesus gives us that gift of life. Without works that faith is dead, useless. Here are a few more that show we need to try.
Acts 26:20 ...to the nations I went bringing the message that they should repent and turn to God by doing works that befit repentance.
Eph 4:22 that YOU should put away the old personality which conforms to YOUR former course of conduct and which is being corrupted according to his deceptive desires; 23 but that YOU should be made new in the force actuating YOUR mind, 24 and should put on the new personality which was created according to God’s will in true righteousness and loyalty.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires.
Col 3:5 Deaden, therefore, YOUR body members that are upon the earth as respects fornication, uncleanness, sexual appetite, hurtful desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of those things the wrath of God is coming. 7 In those very things YOU, too, once walked when YOU used to live in them. 8 But now really put them all away from YOU, wrath, anger, badness, abusive speech, and obscene talk out of YOUR mouth. 9 Do not be lying to one another. Strip off the old personality with its practices, 10 and clothe yourselves with the new [personality], which through accurate knowledge is being made new according to the image of the One who created it,
Heb 13:16 Moreover, do not forget the doing of good and the sharing of things with others, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.
Phil 2:12 Consequently, my beloved ones, in the way that YOU have always obeyed, not during my presence only, but now much more readily during my absence, keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling;
Heb 12: 28 Wherefore, seeing that we are to receive a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us continue to have undeserved kindness, through which we may acceptably render God sacred service with godly fear and awe. 29 For our God is also a consuming fire.
Now it is your turn to say I took all these out of context.
To follow such scriptures in Zathrus' mind is following men. So be it!!! Men inspired of God as found in the Bible. The question is, why do you deny these scriptural thoughts???
You are indeed fighting against Jehovah's Witnesses, and the first century Christians as well.
Salvation isn't automatic. Great effort is required on our part.
Luke 13:23 Now a certain man said to him: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” He said to them: 24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
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Agape,
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Your whole point of 2 Cor 2 was out of context with this discussion as that man repented and was kept in the congregation. |
This is interesting. You have mentioned this before. So the man Paul writes of in 2 Cor 2 is not even the same man concerning whom he gave counsel in 1 Cor 5?
| TBax wrote: | | Do you comprehend that people don't automatically become spirits when they die? Some will be resurrected as spirits to rule with Christ in God's kingdom. But not people that practice gross sins. |
And you conclude that he is not the same man based on your doctrine of salvation which says it if he were snared in sexual sin, his spirit would be destroyed permanently upon his natural death? Therefore it couldn't be the man's spirit that Paul was concerned with saving?
Or perhaps because of his sin, the most he could hope for is an earthly existence in paradise if he turned from his ways, but your Witness doctrine says it would not be possible to, as you say, rule as a spirit with Christ in God's kingdom? And therefore Paul couldn't have been talking about his spirit being saved, nor could hte man in 2 Cor 2 be the same man?
| TBax wrote: | | Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom. |
For you to quote this in the context of what you're telling me here tells me you have no idea of the point Paul was making in writing it. But that's a bit off topic.
| TBax wrote: | | If you believe "spirit here means such a one becomes a spirit creature, such an understanding of 1 Cor 5:5 would obviously not be correct. Direct contradiction with other scriptures. Such ones wouldn't be resurrected as spirits. |
Never mind my questions above. You've answered them. Remarkable.
So according to Witness theology, if one messes up in the manner in which this man did in the 1st century, not only is that grounds for discarding him from the congregation like so much waste expelled from the body, but this person has no hope of an eternal afterlife, reigning with Christ.
And so you keep your Witness doctrine intact, though Paul disproves it in this very passage you've quoted numerous times, by denying the plain meaning of his words, speaking of the man's spirit, and twisting the passage so that Paul is all of a sudden talking about some other meaning of "spirit", and one belonging to someone else at that.
| TBax wrote: | | To be clear about what you are saying, which of these meanings do you think 1 Cor is refering to? The entire context is about removing the leaven to keep it from spreading in keeping the congregation clean. |
Well the plain meaning, from reading the passage for what it says, and taking into account old testament teaching, is that Paul is talking about the breath of this man's life, which Paul was concerned with preserving beyond this earthly life, because he had put his faith in Jesus Christ.
| TBax wrote: | | Not if you read with closed eyes. Many who were disfellowshiped exert themselves vigorously, make the effort and come back. Disfellowshiping is an act of love, for both the congregation and the person disfellowshiped. |
Not as you've been describing it. Now you say this? After admitting already that the Witnesses are more concerned with the "cleanliness" of the congregation than with the welfare of the individuals in it, or the welfare of those being expelled like so much waste?
If they "exert themselves" and come back, what do they return to? You say that those caught committing gross sins have no more hope of an afterlife ruling with Christ.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | So the man Paul writes of in 2 Cor 2 is not even the same man concerning whom he gave counsel in 1 Cor 5? |
1 Cor 5:13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
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2 Cor 2:6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad.
I am not sure why you think it is the same man, but whoever the man is in 2 Cor, he repented otherwise 1 Cor 5:13 would be applied.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
| Zathrus wrote: | | For you to quote this in the context of what you're telling me here tells me you have no idea of the point Paul was making in writing it. But that's a bit off topic. |
Not one bit off topic. Those resurrected to spirit life rule with Christ in that kingdom. Those who practice such sins are not resurrected as spirit creatures!!! You don't see that as "on topic"??? I wasn't sire what you believed, so I was covering that base.
| Zathrus wrote: | | So according to Witness theology, if one messes up in the manner in which this man did in the 1st century, not only is that grounds for discarding him from the congregation like so much waste expelled from the body, but this person has no hope of an eternal afterlife, reigning with Christ. |
Not "if one messes up"!!! Even disfellowshiped people can be reinstated if they repent and turn around.
To practice sin is not the same as "messing up". You cannot quite seem to grasp that.
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
| Zathrus wrote: | | Well the plain meaning, from reading the passage for what it says, and taking into account old testament teaching, is that Paul is talking about the breath of this man's life, which Paul was concerned with preserving beyond this earthly life, because he had put his faith in Jesus Christ. |
If the man repents and turns around, yes he does demonstrate faith in Jesus and will live. If he doesn't repent, no faith in Jesus. His actions reveal such faith and would be obvious in such instances.
| Zathrus wrote: | | You say that those caught committing gross sins have no more hope of an afterlife ruling with Christ. |
If that is how well you listen, it is pointless to discuss things with you. Do you comprehend what PRACTICING SIN means??????????????????? No wonder you are so confused.
You don't pay attention. You don't listen, as your statements are constantly revealing. I clarify things many times and you keep spouting what you think we believe despite what I have told you.
Zathrus. You obviously will believe what you choose to. But since you don't look at the Bible as a whole, you will fall short. Since you cannot comprehend what I have told you here you will gain no understanding, until you honestly appraise what has been said.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: |
I am not sure why you think it is the same man, but whoever the man is in 2 Cor, he repented otherwise 1 Cor 5:13 would be applied. |
It wasn't applied? Where do you get that from?
The man was put away from among them as Paul commanded in 1 Cor 5. In 2 Cor 2, Paul asks the Corinthians to later welcome the same man back. Sounds to me like 1 Cor 5:13 was applied, there was a change in the man, and there was reconciliation between him and his local assembly. Just because that idea causes problems with Witness doctrine on the requirements for salvation and the afterlife does not mean anything. It shows that there are problems with Witness doctrines of the afterlife, of salvation, and of handling matters such as the immoral conduct this man was practicing.
| TBax wrote: | | Those resurrected to spirit life rule with Christ in that kingdom. Those who practice such sins are not resurrected as spirit creatures!!! You don't see that as "on topic"??? I wasn't sire what you believed, so I was covering that base. |
You're appealing to the Winess doctrine of two separate classes of afterlife, or two classes of people in the afterlife. Those living in human bodies on an earth restored to the paradise one sees depicted in Witness literature, eating pineapples, living in huge suberban homes with immaculate lawns and smiling all the time, while others are resurrected as "spirit creatures" as you call them.
I don't subscribe to that.
| TBax wrote: |
To practice sin is not the same as "messing up". You cannot quite seem to grasp that.
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, |
You don't seem to grasp that your difference between "messing up" and practicing sin is a man-made distinction, and I do not recognize it, neither does God, and no matter how many times you misapply Heb 10:26, you cannot prove it from scripture. Sin is sin. God permits none of it in His presence. Either he holds us all guilty of all sin that we do, whether one time or regularly, or we are justified of all sin. It is only the Witnesses and some of organized Christianity who teach that God permits sin in His presence as long as we didn't know about it or do it regularly.
| TBax wrote: | | Do you comprehend what PRACTICING SIN means??????????????????? No wonder you are so confused. |
I know what it means and I know God does not care whether sin is done once or every day. In fact, without Jesus, a man is a sinner without having to commit any kind of gross sin, whether once or every day. And with Jesus, he is righteous. Paul said 1 Corinthians 6:11
| Quote: | | And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. |
Your works based Witness salvation teaching cannot comprehend this. It cannot comprehend the righteousness of God apart from works. It cannot accept the idea of being justified by the Spirit of our God rather than the works of our flesh. Your Witness salvation teaching is as Catholic as indulgences and the eucharist.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | It wasn't applied? Where do you get that from?
The man was put away from among them as Paul commanded in 1 Cor 5. In 2 Cor 2, Paul asks the Corinthians to later welcome the same man back. Sounds to me like 1 Cor 5:13 was applied, there was a change in the man, |
If that is the case, then that is fine. If disfellowshiped people repent and turn around they are welcomed back here as well. If the individual doesn't repent 1 Cor 5:13 continues to be applied. You just are not trying to understand.
| Zathrus wrote: | | and there was reconciliation between him and his local assembly. Just because that idea causes problems with Witness doctrine |
Problems with the Witness doctrine?????
That is the Witness doctrine. Yet you criticize us for that. You are so lost!
| Zathrus wrote: | Those living in human bodies on an earth restored to the paradise
...
I don't subscribe to that. |
Ps 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it.
Rev 21:And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Bold mine
Yes, you do not subscribe to many things the Bible teaches.
| Zathrus wrote: | | You don't seem to grasp that your difference between "messing up" and practicing sin is a man-made distinction, |
"Practicing sin" means something specific. It means to "deliberately keep on sinning". An attitude or a lack of effort to avoid such sins. You not understanding the meaning of words is paramount in your lack of understanding. This is appearently your method of blindness.
| Zathrus wrote: | | and I do not recognize it |
Obviously. And that is why you cannot grasp the truth in the Bible.
| Zathrus wrote: | | neither does God |
Yes, you have the mind of God.
I am sure God doesn't know what words, or the concept of to "deliberately keep on sinning " means either.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I know what it means and I know God does not care whether sin is done once or every day. |
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Your works based Witness salvation teaching cannot comprehend this. It cannot comprehend the righteousness of God apart from works. |
No. It cannot comprehend faith apart from works!!! We can be righteous through our faith, yet if we do not have works our faith is dead, useless. You fail to see this as well.
James 2:26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Zathrus. You obviously will believe what you choose to. But since you don't look at the Bible as a whole, you will fall short. Since you cannot comprehend what I have told you here you will gain no understanding, until you honestly appraise what has been said.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Sin is sin. God permits none of it in His presence. Either he holds us all guilty of all sin that we do, whether one time or regularly, or we are justified of all sin. It is only the Witnesses and some of organized Christianity who teach that God permits sin in His presence as long as we didn't know about it or do it regularly. |
| Zathrus wrote: | In fact, without Jesus, a man is a sinner without having to commit any kind of gross sin, whether once or every day. And with Jesus, he is righteous. Paul said 1 Corinthians 6:11
| Quote: | | And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. |
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TBax. I notice that your reponse to this point was conspicuously absent. There truly is wisdom in choosing one's battles.
| TBax wrote: | | If disfellowshiped people repent and turn around they are welcomed back here as well. |
I meant to ask you about this. In fact I did ask you and you have not replied. If such a person gets whatever situation in their lives that got them kicked out of the Witnesses straightened out, so that they are no longer a reject, and they come back to the Witnesses, what do they come back to?
A diminished hope of an afterlife? Knocked down one level in the hierarchy of possible afterlives?
More ostracism from other members of the congregation? Others in the congregation looking down their noses at them? Resentment? Jealousy, even?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1965
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| Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | TBax. I notice that your reponse to this point was conspicuously absent. There truly is wisdom in choosing one's battles. |
I understand what you are trying to insinuate. I don't have a problem with that scripture. However you say so many wrong things I do have to pick my battles. If we truly have faith in Jesus we are washed clean. If we truly have faith in Jesus our work will prove that faith.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I meant to ask you about this. In fact I did ask you and you have not replied. If such a person gets whatever situation in their lives that got them kicked out of the Witnesses straightened out, so that they are no longer a reject, and they come back to the Witnesses, what do they come back to? |
The answer is in the posts. If you bothered to try to understand you could have seen it.
If they come back they are our brothers once again.
| Zathrus wrote: | | A diminished hope of an afterlife? Knocked down one level in the hierarchy of possible afterlives? |
What??? Where do you get this level buisness. Those that become the 144,000, the ones that rule with Jesus are the firstfruits of the Christian congregation. When that number was filled then all others, including myself have the hope of everlasting life on earth. Disfellowshiping and then reinstatement doesn't change that.
| Zathrus wrote: | | More ostracism from other members of the congregation? Others in the congregation looking down their noses at them? |
Matt 6:14 “For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU; 15 whereas if YOU do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will YOUR Father forgive YOUR trespasses.
If an individual has a problem with this, or even resentment or jealousy, then they need to work on that.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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