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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1902
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 Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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bart007,
| bart wrote: | | Ok, Why is the Mosaic Law worthless and useless? |
It isn't. It is God's perfect law. It served its purpose. It exposed all humans as sinners, and was a tutor leading to Christ. When Christ died he ended that law. Neither we nor the Jews are under that law anymore, however many of the principles from that law are included in the law of the Christ. LOVE! 
Gal 6:2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.
| bart wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | How many Gods do you worship??? |
This is like asking how many H2O's exist. |
There are innumerable H2O molecules. Yes they can exist in three forms.
That doesn't answer how many Gods you worship. Do you believe there is one God or multiple Gods you worship?
| bart wrote: | | God's Son clearly is Jesus in this psalm. |
So? God installed Jesus as king. Indeed! We should honor the king Jehovah set up. Indeed! So what is your point?
| bart wrote: | ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? 
Jesus is called God period. |
Is that how the apostles saw it?
1 Cor 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
Hmmm. They must be out of their mind as well.
Is this how you deal with people, making such grandious statements yet not trying to understand?
| bart wrote: | | Either Jesus is God, or the Apostle John is calling Him 'a god' meaning a pagan god, which is no God at all. |
Did you miss this verse?
Deut 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords,
Is Jehovah the God of pagan gods??? The Bible show Jehovah called Moses a god as Jehovah worked through him. Jesus showed the kings and judges of Israel were called gods by God himself. Did you know a psalm uses Elohim (gods) in reference to the angels? Jehovah is the God of gods. However, only Jehovah is to be worshiped.
| bart wrote: | | Don't you believe in context as an aid to understanding. |
Indeed! In context with other scriptures as well. If Jesus was with God then Jesus obviously isn't that one. The greek speaking people would have understood from John 1:1 that Jesus was not "the God".
| bart wrote: | | Jesus has the same origin as The Father, they must be one as in unity. |
Jesus was begotten. The Father had no origin.
| bart wrote: | 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Gee, i wasn't there for that, were you? The cosmos was created through Jesus, and nothing was created apart from Him. |
Jesus would be the obvious exception. Did Jesus create himself?
Listen closely bart. The scriptures show no man has seen God at any time. Did people see Jesus? How is it they saw Jesus but didn't see God? Jesus perfectly represented his Father, but is not his Father.
| bart wrote: | | If you looked at me, you are not seeing me, you are seeing my body. |
Philosophical gibberish.
| bart wrote: | | You're taking me through these God versus, where Jesus acknowledges the Father as the one True God. John has already established Jesus as being God, so John is not concerned about anyone thinking that Jesus is not God. But Jesus is saying that Father is the only true God, in opposition to all false gods. |
 This is your reasoning. No wonder people cannot respond to you. You use simplistic misleading logic. This scripture that shows the truth is simply dismissed by you because John already covered that Jesus is God? 
| bart wrote: | | On earth He did not seek equality with God the Father |
Nor in heaven.
1 Jn 5:18-20 Yes, the one Jesus revealed to us is the true God.
| bart wrote: | You not following the JW's handbook here. It should read:
"‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my 'a god' and YOUR 'a god'.” |
Perhaps my brothers stop responding to you, not because they didn't have an answer, but because of your ridicule.
I never said without the definite article it must be "a god". However it can be used and logic dictates it should at John 1:1.
Not according to you.
Literal:
Rev 1:1 unvieling OF Jesus Christ which Gives to Him the God.
Rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,
If Jesus is God why is he shown as seperate from God? Notice that scripture doesn't differentiate him from the Father, but from God? |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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bart,
I loved your testimony. Many who are tested in the manner you were tested do not pass the test. You passed! I am sure you will be greatly rewarded for it.
The JW's are able to gain such a strong psychological control over most of their adherents, that even when they see, plainly, the deception of JW teachings....they cannot bring themselves to leave, or even openly admit that something is definitely wrong. And no wonder....they have been led not to believe in God's word. They are taught that the Bible has been skewed and corrupted......CONSEQUENTLY, it is only the "spirit filled organization" that can be trusted.....The organization tells them what the Bible says, and what to believe. These adherents can move forward from this point, but can never contradict the organization.
Persuasively, JW adherents come to believe they have no foundation other than the organization. If they cross the organization, or leave it, they stand to lose, or do lose, the foundation of their very own family. They are simply STUCK, psychologically and emotionally...which prevents them from leaving physically.
So, once again, consequently, there are some JW adherents who are so unwilling to see/acknowledge the truth, that it absolutely does not matter how wonderful and Holy Spirit filled a point of truth presented to them may be....it's simply not what they want to hear....so they turn from it, twist it, or avoid it.
The deception of JW doctrine is not "masterful", as the heading of one thread here puts it. Many folks see the deception, and as is apparent, even some JW adherents see the deception too, at times, but because of the masterful way in-which the JW organization has a hold on these folks they can not acknowledge it, even in their most inner being, or they simply cannot act upon it, the consequences are to great.
My only question is....
The delusion is so strong and effective, is it only the JW organization (made of men)that institutes and perpetuates it?
Zathrus,
You are point on! Your biblical citations can not be contended with.
God, through Paul, said of Judaic believers (who also believe in salvation by works).......
Romans 10:2
I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge. |
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | bart007,
| bart wrote: | | Ok, Why is the Mosaic Law worthless and useless? |
It isn't. It is God's perfect law. It served its purpose. It exposed all humans as sinners, and was a tutor leading to Christ. When Christ died he ended that law. Neither we nor the Jews are under that law anymore, however many of the principles from that law are included in the law of the Christ. LOVE!
Gal 6:2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ. |
And this is where you go astray big time. Paul in Hebrews 7 calls the Mosiac law useless and worthless in that it can't save anyone. Even Jesus said this was true:
Jn 5:39-45
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.NASU
Those under the Mosaic Law all are condemned!
For more detail, see my post in "The Ten Commandments and Laws of the Bible" forum
The law of Christ is not the Mosaic Law. Jesus kept the whole Mosaic Law for those of us that believe in Him.
So as death to all came into the world through one man, salvation is granted to all who accept it Through Jesus finished work on the cross.
Paul states in Hebrews that Jesus is not a preist according to levi, Jesus is a priest of the Everlasting Priesthood of Melchelzidek. And that where there is a change in Priesthood, there is a change in LAW!
Would you like to know what the laws of Christ are?
BTW, Nice to meet you TBax. |
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | bart,
I loved your testimony. Many who are tested in the manner you were tested do not pass the test. You passed! I am sure you will be greatly rewarded for it.
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Thanks Zathrus,
I like your posts too, you understand the gospel. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1902
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:26 am Post subject: |
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bart007,
Hi,
In order for this to work you need to pay attention.
| bart wrote: | | And this is where you go astray big time. Paul in Hebrews 7 calls the Mosiac law useless and worthless in that it can't save anyone. Even Jesus said this was true: |
Please read carefully.
| TBax wrote: | It isn't. It is God's perfect law. It served its purpose. It exposed all humans as sinners, and was a tutor leading to Christ. When Christ died he ended that law. Neither we nor the Jews are under that law anymore, however many of the principles from that law are included in the law of the Christ. LOVE!
Gal 6:2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another, and thus fulfill the law of the Christ.
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In Hebrews Paul showed the law couldn't save people. It exposed them all as sinners worthy of death. Hence "The law made nothing perfect".(Heb 7:10) That law showed the Jews they needed a redeemer, and Jesus proved to be that one.
| bart wrote: | | Those under the Mosaic Law all are condemned! |
Indeed! That is why we need Jesus!
| bart wrote: | | The law of Christ is not the Mosaic Law. Jesus kept the whole Mosaic Law for those of us that believe in Him. |
Indeed! However there are principles that both the Mosiac law and the law of the Christ share. For instance if you have Christian love for your brother and his wife, would you commit adultery with his wife?
The Bible make clear the gross sins or action that defile us morally. You cannot practice such while obeying the law of the Christ. If you do practice such you are denying the law of the Christ, proving you do not love God whole souled, or your neighbor. 
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
Something I would like an answer to from the last post:
Literal:
Rev 1:1 unvieling OF Jesus Christ which Gives to Him the God.
Rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,
If Jesus is God why is he shown as seperate from God? Notice that scripture doesn't differentiate him from the Father, but from God?
Nice to meet you as well bart. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2162
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | Have you considered that you are advocating continuing to keep man under the law? |
Can spiritually minded people practice fornication? |
What has your question to do with the question I posed, TBax? Do you see some relationship between being spiritually minded and being under the law of the old covenant? I do too. But while you appear to be equating them, I see a mutually exclusive relationship between them taught in the new testament. And the fact that you appear to understand their relationship completely opposite from how I do would indicate one of us has it completely turned around.
So as to not leave your question answered with only a question, let me say this: If it is not possible for spiritually minded people to practice fornication, then it is also not possible for them to be judgemental, to condemn others, or to see others as less holy than themselves.
If committing one outward sin of the flesh disqualifies one from being spiritually minded, then any sin in the flesh would do so as well.
And if that is the case, then you and every one who believes Witness teaching must admit that you also are no more spiritually minded than your person practicing fornication. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2162
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | Persuasively, JW adherents come to believe they have no foundation other than the organization. If they cross the organization, or leave it, they stand to lose, or do lose, the foundation of their very own family. They are simply STUCK, psychologically and emotionally...which prevents them from leaving physically.
So, once again, consequently, there are some JW adherents who are so unwilling to see/acknowledge the truth, that it absolutely does not matter how wonderful and Holy Spirit filled a point of truth presented to them may be....it's simply not what they want to hear....so they turn from it, twist it, or avoid it. |
This is a great point, Dust. When someone has too much invested in a teaching for too long, they are most unwilling to embrace the truth, even if it is plainly presented.
I commend the people whose testimonies you quoted in the "Joy or Sorrow..." thread who despite having been enslaved mentally and spiritually for years, did embrace the truth and receive freedom. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1902
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Your statement indicated that if one tries to avoid sin that will make them want to sin more.
| Zathrus wrote: | | In fact the more sin conscious a person is, focusing on doing everything right and not mis-stepping, the more power the temptation to do wrong has over them. |
Then you improperly pointed to "works-based righteousness". Your view was improper and I showed you the scriptures to prove that.
James 2:26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
How Paul viewed this. 1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
Paul put forth great effort to do what was right. So the question remains:
Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be?
You then improperly indicated that knowing and avioding gross sins is advocating keeping men under the law (My assumption-Mosiac law). The question "Can spiritually minded people practice fornication?" adresses that. The answer should have been obvious. NO! People cannot practice gross sin and be acceptable Christians.
You currently show you do not understand what "practice" of fornication means.
| Zathrus wrote: | | If committing one outward sin of the flesh disqualifies one from being spiritually minded, then any sin in the flesh would do so as well. |
No body said that here. Falling and getting back up is one thing, practicing fornication involves a continuation. It seems to me you are setting up a senerio to show there is no point in trying to do things to please God. Your senerio falls short. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | Do you see some relationship between being spiritually minded and being under the law of the old covenant? |
No! Is there a connection to being under the law of the Christ? Yes.
| Zathrus wrote: | | And the fact that you appear to understand their relationship completely opposite from how I do would indicate one of us has it completely turned around. |
Some of those principles that formed that law are also present in the law of the Christ.
| Zathrus wrote: | | So as to not leave your question answered with only a question, let me say this: If it is not possible for spiritually minded people to practice fornication, then it is also not possible for them to be judgemental, to condemn others, |
True. We aren't to judge or condemn people, that is for God and Jesus. However, the Bible does show the attitudes and actions that displease God, and if people continue to follow those things they are judging themselves. All have the opportunity to repent and turn around. If they choose not to they have to answer to God for that.
| Zathrus wrote: | | or to see others as less holy than themselves. |
True for those trying to do what is right. Not true for those not trying!!!
Rom 12:Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason.
Who was this to? People who didn't try to do what was right? Or people who follow the example of Jesus and Paul?
1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
That is what holy means for imperfect humans. Was Paul perfect? No! But he put forth great effort to do what was right. The same as we all must. Do you exert yourself? |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be? |
Yes!
It's faith that makes one righteous. It's faith that compels one to do righteousness.
TBax, your question rightly assumes that a righteous person does righteous things, but it wrongly assumes that if one does righteous things one will be made righteous.
| TBax wrote: | | Can spiritually minded people practice fornication? |
A spritual minded person serves the Law of God with his/her mind and heart, but the flesh of a spiritual minded person serves the law of sin.
Therefore a spritual minded person can commit fornication, and through Christ, be found acceptable, but not in the practice of fornication, but rather in the repentance of fornication......such repentance being compelled by faith. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2162
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
Your statement indicated that if one tries to avoid sin that will make them want to sin more.
| Zathrus wrote: | | In fact the more sin conscious a person is, focusing on doing everything right and not mis-stepping, the more power the temptation to do wrong has over them. |
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No, brother Bax, my statement indicated that if one is sin conscious, that will lead to them falling into the very behaviors they believe will condemn them. In their mind, they are "avoiding sin" as you say. And that mentality, which you also display in these statements of yours, binds sin to them.
| TBax wrote: |
Then you improperly pointed to "works-based righteousness". Your view was improper and I showed you the scriptures to prove that.
James 2:26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
How Paul viewed this. 1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow. |
You quoted the favorite Bible verse of legalists from James, as though by doing this, you might negate a wealth of gospel teaching in Romans, Galatians and other parts of the Bible.
Do you believe James taught something other than the other apostles? Do you believe that by believing your interpretation of his words and ignoring Bible teaching elsewhere in the Bible, that you're right? You cannot make new testament gospel teaching into a system of righteousness by works by quoting James 2:26.
And the quote by Paul from 1 Cor 9 is entirely out of context. Paul is speaking in that chapter of the sacrifices he made in ministry to win souls. The chapter is about ministry, not teaching on salvation.
| TBax wrote: | So the question remains:
Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be? |
OK, since this question still remains, and you haven't gotten it from my other posts, I'll say this: I tried to and succeeded at becoming righteous when I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior.
| TBax wrote: |
You then improperly indicated that knowing and avioding gross sins is advocating keeping men under the law (My assumption-Mosiac law). The question "Can spiritually minded people practice fornication?" adresses that. The answer should have been obvious. NO! People cannot practice gross sin and be acceptable Christians.
You currently show you do not understand what "practice" of fornication means. |
I improperly indicated nothing. I properly clearly stated that when the Witnesses and other religious groups make works a condition for salvation, they perpetuate the principles and laws of the old covenant into this age of the new covenant.
And I do know what the word "practice" means. I also know that you make a distinction that many religious people make, which is not in the Bible. I marvel that the more I learn of Witness teaching, the more strikingly similar it is to the teaching of the system of Babylon...er, I mean mainstream Christianity. The Bible does not distinguish between practicing sin and falling into it on occasion. The Bible teaches that no sin is acceptable in God's sight. And secondly, are there sins that you did before you became a Witness, which you still do today? Even "little" ones? Then you "practice" sin!
| TBax wrote: | | No body said that here. Falling and getting back up is one thing, practicing fornication involves a continuation. |
No sin is acceptable to God. Are you going to tell us that God permits sin in His presence as long as it is not "known" sin, or if it is not committed regularly?
| TBax wrote: |
No! Is there a connection to being under the law of the Christ? Yes. |
Ah, an appeal to the law of Christ! How strikingly similar your version of this law is to selected laws from the law of Moses, combined with things the Witnesses made up and added.
Where is this law of Christ written?
Are we to understand that the new covenant in Christ's blood boils down to a set of "Thou shalt"S and "Thou shalt not"s which Christians must follow or face the threat of God's wrath, just as was the case in the old covenant? And the only thing that has changed is that some laws were obsoleted and some new ones added?
The old covenant included the books where these laws were written. Where is this law of Christ written for us?
| TBax wrote: | | Some of those principles that formed that law are also present in the law of the Christ. |
Remarkable. I say again: small wonder the Witnesses don't believe Jesus to be God. He really didn't change much did He? A few laws, yes, but really it's still about us doing everything right or facing God's wrath, right? He's not even much of a Savior, is He?
| TBax wrote: | | True. We aren't to judge or condemn people, that is for God and Jesus. |
So why are you Witnesses doing it?
| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | or to see others as less holy than themselves. |
True for those trying to do what is right. Not true for those not trying!!! |
 Huh? You lost me.
Those who believe their works make them pleasing to God will become full of spiritual pride, as the Witness organization is, and see themselves as holier than others. The holiness of those who believe their works make them pleasing to God will be an outward holiness. And their praise will be of men, not of God. Men may admire their outward holiness, and they certainly are prone to admire themselves.
As for me, my holiness is in Christ alone. I am only holy because He has made me so. I have no holiness of my own, and no reason to view myself as holier than anyone.
| TBax wrote: | Rom 12:Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason.
Who was this to? People who didn't try to do what was right? Or people who follow the example of Jesus and Paul? |
Your question is completely amiss. That passage was written to people who put their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, and were threfore right with God. Your question does however, give away the fact that the Witnesses are still back in the old covenant.
When the tribe of Rueben wished to stay on the far side of the promised land rather than cross Jordan and enter in, they were permitted. And so I say to you, be my guest.
But do not judge me for entering in and obtaining the promise.
| TBax wrote: | 1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
That is what holy means for imperfect humans. Was Paul perfect? No! But he put forth great effort to do what was right. The same as we all must. Do you exert yourself? |
See my comments above regarding this pasage. You will not convince me of anything by taking snippets of the Bible out of context and using them as slogans to back up your doctrines of men, except that you are a poor student of God's Word.
As I said above, I have already successfully become righteous. It was not by what I do, but by what Jesus has done. As I said, if you wish to stay on the other side of Jordan, be my guest. But you have nothing to say to any of us who have entered in. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1902
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | No, brother Bax, my statement indicated that if one is sin conscious, that will lead to them falling into the very behaviors they believe will condemn them. In their mind, they are "avoiding sin" as you say. And that mentality, which you also display in these statements of yours, binds sin to them. |
What??? 
Still looks like if one tries to avoid sin that will make them want to sin more.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Do you believe James taught something other than the other apostles? |
I believe James taught what the apostles practiced.
How Paul viewed this. 1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
| Zathrus wrote: | | And the quote by Paul from 1 Cor 9 is entirely out of context. Paul is speaking in that chapter of the sacrifices he made in ministry to win souls. The chapter is about ministry, not teaching on salvation. |
Yes, and after he wins souls he mentions " I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, ...I myself should not become disapproved somehow. "
That is not out of context. Paul is talking about self discipline, like a runner needs during a race. The race for life.
Please read the context, and notice what that very scripture says. He is not just speaking about the ministry, But "in all things"!!!
24 Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it. 25 Moreover, every man taking part in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Now they, of course, do it that they may get a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible one. 26 Therefore, the way I am running is not uncertainly; the way I am directing my blows is so as not to be striking the air; 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
| Zathrus wrote: | | OK, since this question still remains, and you haven't gotten it from my other posts, I'll say this: I tried to and succeeded at becoming righteous when I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior. |
You totally miss the point.
Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be?
Did Paul think it was important to try?
1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
You can dismiss this scripture and the clear meaning if you like. But don't pretend your alter of context changes anything.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I properly clearly stated that when the Witnesses and other religious groups make works a condition for salvation, they perpetuate the principles and laws of the old covenant into this age of the new covenant. |
You fail to get the sense of it. We are not making conditions for salvation, but simply reading the Bible. Nobody earns salvation. It is a gift God gives. But He gives it to those He chooses.
I asked you "Can spiritually minded people practice fornication?" Yet you had no clear answer. Here is the answer.
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,
I asked you "Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be? ". Your answer indicates trying to do what is right is unnecessary. You are wrong. The answer is as follows:
1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
You like to indicate that all you need is faith in Jesus. While that faith is vital, that faith will move us to action. Doing the very things Jesus did like preaching about the kingdom.
John 14:12 Most truly I say to YOU, He that exercises faith in me, that one also will do the works that I do; and he will do works greater than these, because I am going my way to the Father.
Thus backing James words, that you try to dismiss as well. Faith is proved by our works!!! If you have no works your faith is dead.
James 2:26 Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
These are truths from the scriptures. To think you don't need to exert yourself to do what is right is to deny what Jesus taught.
Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able,
To try to use other scriptures to deny these means you cannot properly comprehend those other scriptures.
Regarding the part where you admited I lost you, I was showing you that those that serve God are considered "holy" as opposed to those who don't try. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | You will not convince me of anything by taking snippets of the Bible out of context and using them as slogans to back up your doctrines of men |
Yes, how dare me use scripture to prove my point! I do believe you are correct, as you showed you are willing to alter context to try to cloud the meaning of a clear verse. In another case you use language to dismiss the meaning of a scripture because it doesn't jive with your understanding.
Yes Zathrus, I will not be able to convince you sinse you have no problem nullifing the meaning of scripture.
Too bad. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1902
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | It's faith that compels one to do righteousness. |
If you don't do righteousness do you have faith? |
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Dust,
| Dust wrote: | | It's faith that compels one to do righteousness. |
| TBax wrote: | | If you don't do righteousness do you have faith? |
If someone sins from from week to week, can they still be righteousness? Can they have faith? |
| TBax wrote: | TBax wrote:
John 20:17 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’” |
Using the JW rule about the missing definite article, John 20:17 would read:
"‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my 'a god' and YOUR 'a god'.”
Your reply is that if the if the definite article is not there, it does not necessarily mean 'a god'. TBAX, This ad hoc contradictory interpretation of the use of the missing definite article is a deception. The JW's are obviously imposing their belief on the Bible. Is this not that what cults do?
2nd, I did ask you what it means when you call Jesus, 'a god'? Surely it could not mean that Jesus is a false God. It can't mean He is not God. So what does 'a god' mean to you when applied to Jesus. Words have meaning, please reveal that meaning when JW's call Jesus 'a God'.
Now you say I ridicule you. Perhaps I did, but I did not intend it that way. I respect you as a person and I will try to avoid any ridicule of you. I really do like you. But I also want honest answers from you.
When Paul calls the Mosaic Law worthless and useless, and this is scripture, why do contradict the Bible and say it is not true?
When Paul also states in Hebrews, that Jesus is not of the priestly order of Levi, but is of the much superior preist hood of Melchelzidek, what does that mean to you?
Finally, When Paul declares that when there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a change of Law, what is the New Law that Paul is talking about?
Peace |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1902
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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bart007.
| bart wrote: | | TBax wrote: | | If someone sins from from week to week, can they still be righteousness? Can they have faith? |
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I am assuming you meant that was your reply, as I didn't ask that.
If you are not talking about the same morally corupting sins, yes. We all sin every day in thought or action. When we recognise such we try to improve. Right?
If you are talking about the same morally corupt sin week after week, then they cannot be righteous if they aren't trying to avoid that gross sin. If they practice such they are removed from the congregation as instructed by Paul.
| bart wrote: | | Using the JW rule about the missing definite article, John 20:17 would read: |
Already covered. In translating there are no "hard fast rules"!!! Other words can alter the rules. Also the definite article can be used and it not apply to "the supreme being" according to the sentence structure.
Your not understanding this shows your ignorance. Your accusing us of deception shows your belligerence.
The fact is, at the very least, John 1:1 can be translated 2 ways. Which one is in harmony with the rest of the Bible?
What did Jesus believe?
(John 17:3) This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
What did the apostles believe?
(1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
| bart wrote: | 2nd, I did ask you what it means when you call Jesus, 'a god'? Surely it could not mean that Jesus is a false God. It can't mean He is not God. So what does 'a god' mean to you when applied to Jesus. Words have meaning, please reveal that meaning when JW's call Jesus 'a God'.
Now you say I ridicule you. Perhaps I did, but I did not intend it that way. I respect you as a person and I will try to avoid any ridicule of you. I really do like you. But I also want honest answers from you. |
Do you? Do you want an honest answer? Can you read my replies with an honest heart? Your question about "a god" was answered. You need to pay attention. Must I quote it for you again?
| bart wrote: | | When Paul calls the Mosaic Law worthless and useless, and this is scripture, why do contradict the Bible and say it is not true? |
I explained to you what Paul was saying in Hebrews. I understand we are no longer under that law, but it did serve a purpose, didn't it?
Please give me the scripture where Paul says in Hebrews 7 that the Mosiac law is "worthless and useless".
| bart wrote: | | When Paul also states in Hebrews, that Jesus is not of the priestly order of Levi, but is of the much superior preist hood of Melchelzidek, what does that mean to you? |
That Jesus is both a king and a priest, as Melchelzidek was, and his priesthood is without end as there was no recorded end to Melchelzidek's priesthood.
| bart wrote: | | Finally, When Paul declares that when there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a change of Law, what is the New Law that Paul is talking about? |
bart, you need to quote or cite the scriptures so I can read the context. We are under the law of the Christ, which is love. Many principles of the law are included in the law of the Christ. Can you practice adultery and be obeying the law of the Christ?
Take care. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2162
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | OK, since this question still remains, and you haven't gotten it from my other posts, I'll say this: I tried to and succeeded at becoming righteous when I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior. |
You totally miss the point.
Can you be considered righteous if you do not try to be?
Did Paul think it was important to try?
1 Cor 9:27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.
You can dismiss this scripture and the clear meaning if you like. But don't pretend your alter of context changes anything.
| Zathrus wrote: | | I properly clearly stated that when the Witnesses and other religious groups make works a condition for salvation, they perpetuate the principles and laws of the old covenant into this age of the new covenant. |
You fail to get the sense of it. We are not making conditions for salvation, but simply reading the Bible. Nobody earns salvation. It is a gift God gives. But He gives it to those He chooses.
I asked you "Can spiritually minded people practice fornication?" Yet you had no clear answer. Here is the answer.
Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, |
This quote from Hebrews does not answer that question at all. It shows that you have no idea what the sin is that the writer of Hebrews was referring to. Again it is striking how similar Witness teaching on salvation is to just about every other authoritarian religious group out there teaching salvation through one's own works and adherence to the organization's requirements.
I'm not missing the sense of it nor missing the point. I came from an organization somewhat similar to the Witnesses. I know their thinking. They say Jesus only gives us a chance to be saved. He does not save. We are actually saved by our adherence to laws and commandments in the Bible and the organization's added requirements. This is no great revelation that only the Witnesses have. Churches all over the world believe this. It is a deception as old as the garden.
And this is why you fail to understand me. I am in Christ Jesus, who according to God's plan is my wisdom, my righteousness, my sanctification and my redemption. You OTOH teach that Jesus only gave us a chance at salvation, your own works are your righteousness, sanctification and redemption, and the cross to you is foolishness. |
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