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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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 Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Nice dodge!
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| bart007 wrote: | P12,
It's time to let the 4 winds blow,
let 'em blow, let 'em blow
those who think like you
have your character too
they will agree with you
and to you be they true |
And you accuse *ME* of sophistry and pontification!
I guess I should just be happy that you didn't falsely quote Gould again...
Still, I'd *really* like to hear your answers to the questions I've been asking you, because to date you haven't answered A SINGLE one of them! Just to recap some of them:
1. Being a creationist, how do you explain the lack of human (or any other large mammalian) fossils anywhere below the K-T boundary?
2. If God created all creatures, and God is perfect, then why do some whales have hind legs?
3. If evolution is false, then why does our genome look *exactly* like what you'd expect from billions of years of evolution.
4. I'd like to hear your explanation for how the steady line of fossils comprising human ancestors in which the brains steadily increase in size and they continue to walk more and more upright is *NOT* an example of transitional forms in the fossil record.
5. What is your justification for saying that Kurt Wise was one of Gould's favorite students?
I'd really appreciate it if you could respond to any or all of these points.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | bart007 wrote: | P12,
It's time to let the 4 winds blow,
let 'em blow, let 'em blow
those who think like you
have your character too
they will agree with you
and to you be they true |
And you accuse *ME* of sophistry and pontification!
I guess I should just be happy that you didn't falsely quote Gould again... |
You would be a lot more joyous if you seek Jesus. Evolution is a dead end cult of death. And I agree that one should not embrace the untrue for false happiness. But if you give Jesus a chance, you just may find The Truth.
I hope to answer your questions in the near future. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| bart007 wrote: |
You would be a lot more joyous if you seek Jesus. Evolution is a dead end cult of death.
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Actually, evolution is an accurate and useful scientific fact and theory which unifies all the different areas of biology. But thanks for the dogmatic rhetoric. It may be dead in *your* mind, but you're not a scientist. The vast majority of relevant scientists accept evolution as fact.
The internet is one of the only places you will find it debated. It certainly isn't debated in the scientific literature, because its veracity was accepted by real scientists long, long ago.
| bart007 wrote: |
And I agree that one should not embrace the untrue for false happiness. But if you give Jesus a chance, you just may find The Truth.
I hope to answer your questions in the near future. |
Seriously?!? I'm looking forward to it!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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bart007
Little Goldfish
Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 50
Location: Rockland NY
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| Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | [
Actually, evolution is an accurate and useful scientific fact and theory which unifies all the different areas of biology. But thanks for the dogmatic rhetoric. It may be dead in *your* mind, but you're not a scientist. The vast majority of relevant scientists accept evolution as fact.
The internet is one of the only places you will find it debated. It certainly isn't debated in the scientific literature, because its veracity was accepted by real scientists long, long ago. |
NOT! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:40 am Post subject: |
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What do you think the National Academy of Sciences is? What is the National Science Foundation?
These are the professional organizations of all the best scientists in the whole country, and they have unequivocally stated that evolution is a FACT and that it is the cornerstone of the biological sciences.
The VAST majority of professional scientists in the biologies agree that evolution is FACT.
If you think that you, poking around on the internet, are able to come up with some deeper truth than what all of the professional, expert scientists have been able to figure out over the centuries, then you're *extremely* arrogant.
Now let's look at ID: The VAST majority of people who deny evolution are religious. Just think about it; creationism is completely unscientific. Science attempts to minimize the number of unfounded assumptions which are needed to support a theory. Creationism and ID necessarily involve the assumption of a creator, for which there is no evidence. In fact, the creator is supernatural, so there CAN be no evidence! In other words, ID is not falsifiable AND it relies on a HUGE unsubstantiated assumption. That's NOT science!
In fact, it gets even worse. ID starts with the conclusion that God created all life, and then goes out to find the evidence. That's NOT science! In science, the evidence leads to truth, but with creationism and ID, the 'truth' leads to the evidence. That's exactly backwards!
And not to mention that Biblical creationism has been scientifically falsified!
So as scientific theories, ID and creationism fail miserably!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | What do you think the National Academy of Sciences is? What is the National Science Foundation?
.....
The VAST majority of professional scientists in the biologies agree that evolution is FACT.
.....! |
atoz: So you really believe that all the millions people in China cd NOT be wrong on putting lead in food?
Do youreally believe that all those religionists for all those millenia were really not really wrong for hating atheists?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm
ThiMk, P123, please.
Go Giants!smile
with all Love and r,
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
atoz: So you really believe that all the millions people in China cd NOT be wrong on putting lead in food?
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Obviously they aren't scientists.
When the EXPERTS agree on something, then that is important. I'll reiterate what I said earlier:
| Quote: | | If you think that you, poking around on the internet, are able to come up with some deeper truth than what all of the professional, expert scientists have been able to figure out over the centuries, then you're *extremely* arrogant. |
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
| atoz wrote: |
atoz: So you really believe that all the millions people in China cd NOT be wrong on putting lead in food?
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Obviously they aren't scientists.
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atoz: So do you love and respect scientists who lie and who are wrong?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
When the EXPERTS agree on something, then that is important. I'll reiterate what I said earlier:
If you think that you, poking around on the internet, are able to come up with some deeper truth than what all of the professional, expert scientists have been able to figure out over the centuries, then you're *extremely* arrogant.
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atoz: Good example.
So because i lvoe myself as arrogant and unarrogant, as a liar and as honest,
I do accept your scientific inference that I am extremely arrogant, even tho it is a lie, and you are lying!
See?
So then I ask you: How can you make me unarrogant?
Then I remind you: It takes one to know one.
Then I say to you:
Well since a humble man like you or an unarrogant man like you agree with ME, an extremely arrogant man, then that makes you as extremely arrogant as me!
sigh
Then I say to you:
And since I, MOI, an extremely arrogant man, agree with you, an unarrogant man, that I am extremely arrogant, then MOI must ALSO be as unarrogant or as humble as YOU!
see?
So we are both extremely arroagant and humble!
So the real arrogance is The Arrogancy of Hatred for the arrogant!
and so,
the REAL Humilty is the Humility of Love for the arrogant and for the humble!
see how it works?
Another example of Applied Love:
Because I love myself as wise and as a fool,
when you call me a fool when i am wise, I am still cool---can you help me to wise?
And when you call me wise when I am a fool,
i will not disabuse you of that notion, either!
see?
Hope that helps to be able to take opposition to your truth IN LOVE of yourself as aliar so you wd be able to also understand why Love of yourself as liar enables you to accept the truth of others without becessarily beleiving it, and why those who hate liars are so opposed to your truth which are hated lies to them.
ok?smile
In The Extremity of Love that simultaneously makes me extremely moderate and moderately extreme, smile
atoz
Last edited by atoz on Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Barbarian
Hamster
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: |
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The last review of the number of scientists who don't accept evolution was about 0.3%.
Data taken from the Discovery Institute's list of scientists who doubt Darwinism, and Project Steve's list of scientists who do.
About 0.3% of those with doctorates in biology or a related field don't accept evolutionary theory.
All of them, so far as I have been able to find, for a religious reason. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for this factoid; I've been saying this all along, but always have to quantify it as "the vast majority of relevant scientists". Numbers are more concrete.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| The Barbarian wrote: |
The last review of the number of scientists who don't accept evolution was about 0.3%.
.... |
atoz: Hi barbarian.
Were the 99.7% of scientists who do accpet evolution working at jobs at Institutions who accept or don't accept evolution?
Do you know?
Cd you find out?
Do you think that is a reasonable analyishtta this could a case where when those 99.7% disbelieved in evolution most, that was and is the very same time when they beleived in their paychecks they got from evolution more?smile
Sorta like:
"When you didst hate him worst, you lovedst him better
Than ever you lovedst Cassius."
Julius Caesar
[IV, 3]
Isn't this same lack of employment in the industry he believes in that helps make KW honest?
As you said here:
| The Barbarian wrote: |
Kurt Wise comes to mind. He seems scrupulously honest. But then, he doesn't make a living selling creationist tracts to the gullible.
He's a genuine scientist.
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In the Love that sorts all things out more finely that any 2-edged sword,
atoz
Last edited by atoz on Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
Do you think that is a reasonable analyishtta this could a case where when those 99.7% disbelieved in evolution most, that was and is the very same time when they beleived in their paychecks they got from evolution more?smile |
No, this is not reasonable, because most of these researchers do their work on university campuses and have tenure, so they can believe whatever they want and their universities couldn't fire them.
They believe in evolution because they understand the evidence better than most people do.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
...No, this is not reasonable,
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atoz: U're slipping back into papal mode!
U mean, reasonably, this is not my reasonable analysis.
But reasonably, that is your reasonable analysis, atoz.
Right?smile
| P1234567890 wrote: |
because most of these researchers do their work on university campuses...
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atoz: There it is! They DO get paid by their universities!
hmmmmmmmmmmm
Now, just to be scrupulously scientific,
what percentage of universities espouse evolution?
Bet is 99.7%.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
...and have tenure, so they can believe whatever they want and their universities couldn't fire them.
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atoz: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
We haven;t even talked about reputation!
How many want a bad rep as a turncoat evolutionist?
Got any percentages on that?
I bet it's .3%!
| P1234567890 wrote: |
They believe in evolution because they understand the evidence better than most people do. |
atoz: Yours, P123, is very reasonable analysis, reasonably expressed!smile
Thank you.
Keep that up, please!
My reasonable analysis reasonable arrived at and reasonably expressed is:
Scientists undersatnd the evidence better than most people do, and that what they understand is that the evidence does NOT support evoultion---just from what I read thay THEY say.
Now I cd be wrong.
But I cd be right.
Here is an example of a scientist who knows the evidence and says it is not mistaken:
"Darwin's three mistakes were that
(1) he dismissed mass extinction as artifacts of an imperfect geologic record;
(2) he assumed that species diversity, like individuals of a given species, tends to increase exponentially with time;
and
(3) he considered biotic interactions the major cause of species extinction.
Those mistakes led to the theory propounded in his book
On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life (Darwin, 1859),]/u]
which has been adopted by many as the scientific basis of the social philosophies.
The Darwinian theory of evolution has two themes:
common descent
and
natural selection.
Creationists are barking up the wrong tree when they question common descent, which is amply documented by scientific evidence.
Darwin's mistakes were in his emphasis on biotic competition in natural selection.
We learned evolution in school, along with aphorisms about the struggle for existence, natural selection, adaptation, and survival of the fittest.
Few of us have found it necessary to check the scientific basis of the Darwinian theory.
I did not bother to read Origin of the Species until I started to write a book on the terminal Cretaceous mass extinction.
[b]Only then did I realize how wrong Darwin was on some critical issues and how unfortunate it is that his mistakes have been misused by ideologists for their propaganda.
This essay is an attempt to renounce social Darwinism... Darwin's theory in biology, transferred to Germany and nurtured by Ernst Haeckel, inspired an ideology that led eventually to the rise of the Nazis...
We have suffered through two world wars and are threatened by an Armageddon.
We have had enough of the Darwinian fallacy.
It is about time we cry:
'The Emperor Has No Clothes.'"
Hsu, Kenneth,
geologist at the Geological Institute at Zurich;
Darwin's Three Mistakes,
Geology,
vol. 14, 1986, p. 532-534
with the Love that knows that the body of evidence can be reasonably read in endless reasonable ways,
atoz |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: |
Scientists undersatnd the evidence better than most people do, and that what they understand is that the evidence does NOT support evoultion---just from what I read thay THEY say.
Now I cd be wrong.
But I cd be right.
|
No, you're totally wrong. You are focusing on the *very few* quotes you can find on-line, on the internet, where you have no idea whether or not they are authentic, and you have no idea how respected the people are who are making the quotes.
And certainly the quotes you're finding aren't scientific, and certainly you're not getting them from relevant peer-reviewed sources.
If you want to see the *relevant* quotes, then look at my post from a couple of weeks ago in which I cited not quotes, not papers, BUT ENTIRE JOURNALS filled with THOUSANDS of papers, and literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of relevant, expert, peer-reviewed quotes showing that you are wrong.
If you think that you're internet quote mining is equal to that, then you have absolutely no idea how to objectively weigh evidence.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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