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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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And we may add Irenaeus to the list.
| Quote: | | The fallacy, then, of this exposition is manifest. For when John, proclaiming one God, the Almighty, and one Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten, by whom all things were made, declares that this was the Son of God, this the Only-begotten, this the Former of all things, this the true Light who enlighteneth every man this the Creator of the world, this He that came to His own, this He that became flesh and dwelt among us,--these men, by a plausible kind of exposition, perverting these statements, maintain that there was another Monogenes, according to production, whom they also style Arche. They also maintain that there was another Saviour, and another Logos, the son of Monogenes, and another Christ produced for the re-establishment of the Pleroma. Thus it is that, wresting from the truth every one of the expressions which have been cited, and taking a bad advantage of the names, they have transferred them to their own system; so that, according to them, in all these terms John makes no mention of the Lord Jesus Christ. For if he has named the Father, and Charis, and Monogenes, and Aletheia, and Logos, and Zoe, and Anthropos, and Ecclesia, according to their hypothesis, he has, by thus speaking, referred to the primary Ogdoad, in which there was as yet no Jesus, and no Christ, the teacher of John. But that the apostle did not speak concerning their conjunctions, but concerning our Lord Jesus Christ, whom he also acknowledges as the Word of God, he himself has made evident. For, summing up his statements respecting the Word previously mentioned by him, he further declares, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." But, according to their hypothesis, the Word did not become flesh at all, inasmuch as He never went outside of the Pleroma, but that Saviour [became flesh] who was formed by a special dispensation [out of all the AEons], and was of later date than the Word. |
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/ECF/irenaeus.html |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
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And Polycarp.
| Quote: | | Polycarp, and the presbyters with him, to the Church of God sojourning at Philippi: Mercy to you, and peace from God Almighty, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, our Saviour, be multiplied. |
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-roberts.html |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Polycarp's words as he was being martyred. Perhaps not as clear of a distinction as in the previous example I cited for him but, understood in conjunction with that previous quote, sufficient (I think) to make my point.
| Quote: | | So they did not nail him, but tied him. Then he, placing his hands behind him and being bound to the stake, like a noble ram out of a great flock for an offering, a burnt sacrifice made ready and acceptable to God, looking up to heaven said: "O Lord God Almighty, the Father of Your beloved and blessed Son Jesus Christ, through whom we have received the knowledge of You, the God of angels and powers and of all creation and of the whole race of the righteous, who live in Your presence; |
http://www.orthodox.cn/patristics/apostolicfathers/martyr.htm |
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beloved57
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Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 261
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | No. I was simply inquiring about your startling use of the plural "Gods" in regard to the Almighty God. |
The one elohim is a plurarity in unity gen 1:1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The almighty God.. |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="beloved57"] | Quote: | | The one elohim is a plurarity in unity gen 1:1 |
Elohim may be singular or plural. When it is singular the English rendering is "God," when plural it is "Gods." Those are the only choices.
In scripture, elohim is always singular when the writer is speaking about YHWH.
| Quote: | 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
The almighty God.. |
Of course. And the Almighty God is YHWH - the God of Jesus. |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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In Exodus 7:1 Moses is called elohim. Is Moses one person (singular) or more than one person (plural)?
In I Samuel 5:7 Dagon is called elohim. Is Dagon one person (singular) or more than one person (plural)?
In Judges 11:24 Chemosh is called elohim. Is Chemosh one person (singular) or more than one person (plural)?
In Psalm 45:6 The Messiah is called elohim. Is the Messiah one person (singular) or more than one person (plural)? |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Trinitarian scholars have abandoned the claim that the word elohim demonstrates a plurality in the Godhead. The Trinitarian scholar, Abraham Dawson, Rector of Ringfield, Suffolk explains why in his book A New Translation of the First Five Chapters of Genesis,
| Quote: | | Elohim has a plural ending but very often and always when the One Supreme God is spoken of, a singular signification. Accordingly, we sometimes find it joined to a verb, adjective or pronoun in the singular number on account of its singular signification and sometimes to one in the plural number on account of its plural termination. No mystery lies in this. And they who infer from this both the unity of God and a plurality of persons in the Godhead not only show themselves to be void of true critical skill, but by producing and urging such weak and frivolous arguments in its defense do a manifest injury to the cause which they are so zealous to support and establish. |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The argument taken from the plural noun Elohim joined either to a singular or plural verb does not strongly aid the orthodox cause, but exposes it to the derision of the infidels. |
(F. Spannheim, Op., Tome 3, p. 1209)
I don't much appreciate being called an infidel but I nevertheless appreciate his concession. |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Calvin's concession on the point.
| Quote: | | [Martin] Luther had exclaimed with great vehemence agianst both Jew and Anti-Trinitarians for not admitting in these words in the first verse of Genesis God created, bara Elohim, there is contained a proof of the Trinity because the noun signifying God in the Hebrew has a plural form though joined to a verb in the singular. John Calvin, on the contrary, refutes this argument or quibble rather, at some length and adds judiciously, speaking of this expression: "Readers are warned to beware of violent language of this sort." |
(Dr. George Campbell, Lectures on Systematic Theology, p. 489) |
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beloved57
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 261
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Elohim may be singular or plural. |
Prove it..
This is what my study guides say:
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God
Transliteration
'elohiym
Pronunciation
el·o·hēm' (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
plural of H433
Last edited by beloved57 on Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Calvin's comment from some old college notes I still have. (My note didn't contain a reference. If you wish to dismiss this quote due to that deficiency that's fine.)
| Quote: | | Moses uses Elohim, a noun of the plural number, from which it is used to infer that there are three persons in the Godhead. This proof, however, of so important a doctrine appears to me by no means solid. And therefore I will not insist on the word but warn my readers against violent interpretations of this kind. To me it is sufficient that the plural number signifies the powers of Deity, which he exerted in creating the world. |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | Elohim may be singular or plural.
Prove it.. |
I'm working on it. Please continue reading.  |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The argument taken from the plural noun Elohim joined to the singular verb bara is exceedingly poor. Since by the usage of their language the Hebrews in designating honorable persons are elsewhere accustomed to employ the plural number for the singular. And this is not surely for denoting some devine mystery, but merely on account of dignity and aggrandizement. |
(Lambert Daneau, Opusc. Theol., p. 2027)
He was a French Calvinist and Professor of Theology at Leyden, 1530-1596. |
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beloved57
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 261
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | beloved57 wrote: | Elohim may be singular or plural.
Prove it.. |
I'm working on it. Please continue reading. |
I am fine with it, Jesus is God, and God is a Trinity, Three distinct persons of One Divine Essence.. |
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Mattathias
Lion King
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1037
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The argument sole and naked drawn from the word Elohim does not seem sufficiently valid to convince the perversity of the Jews and the determined enemies of the Holy Trinity. |
(Lewis Cappel, Crit. Sac., p. 690)
French Protestant, Professor of Hebrew at Saumur, d. 1658. |
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