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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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 Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Paul,
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | "So Judy, do you believe you are under any obligation under Faith to produce Good works as a requirement to being saved? "
Notice that I carefully worded my question with the phrase "under Faith" and "Good works". The reason is that I anticipated a potential response that might include the very verses you quoted. So we know there are GOOD Works being done:
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. |
My answer is still no. I do not believe that under Faith I must produce good works to be saved.
Let me further clarify. I believe that all men were forgiven of sin at the cross; saved from sin. I do not believe that any act of anykind produced the salvation that was given all men at the cross of Christ.
Mat 5:16 does not say that good works saves a man. It says that good works glorify the Father and of that I am happy to do.
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | And we know that via the FLESH there is no good pertaining to it:
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. |
We are in perfect agreement in this.
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | | Did you catch it there in those verses? - it is Paul telling us that we receive Salvation (Eternal Life) ACCORDING to the WORKS that we perform |
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I believe that the 'good works' is holding fast to our profession of Faith until he comes. My declaration of Faith is my witness and my good works.
I think that we are in agreememt that it is a spiritual matter and not the works of the flesh that merrit God's favor.
In Christ, Judy |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | Hi Paul,
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | "So Judy, do you believe you are under any obligation under Faith to produce Good works as a requirement to being saved? "
Notice that I carefully worded my question with the phrase "under Faith" and "Good works". The reason is that I anticipated a potential response that might include the very verses you quoted. So we know there are GOOD Works being done:
Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. |
My answer is still no. I do not believe that under Faith I must produce good works to be saved.
Let me further clarify. I believe that all men were forgiven of sin at the cross; saved from sin. I do not believe that any act of anykind produced the salvation that was given all men at the cross of Christ.
Mat 5:16 does not say that good works saves a man. It says that good works glorify the Father and of that I am happy to do.
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | And we know that via the FLESH there is no good pertaining to it:
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. |
We are in perfect agreement in this.
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | | Did you catch it there in those verses? - it is Paul telling us that we receive Salvation (Eternal Life) ACCORDING to the WORKS that we perform |
.
I believe that the 'good works' is holding fast to our profession of Faith until he comes. My declaration of Faith is my witness and my good works.
I think that we are in agreememt that it is a spiritual matter and not the works of the flesh that merrit God's favor.
In Christ, Judy |
Hi Judy,
Since your answer is no then I'm curious how you reconcile your answer with regards to these verses:
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Is not Paul saying that eternal life (salvation) rendered according to works?
Paul |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | trettep said:
The verses you were quoting was showing us that via our fleshy works we couldn't be saved but via Faith (which requires works) we shall be saved. |
I think you are mistaken when you say faith (requires) works. James is not saying we have to work for salvation, but that works will naturally follow our salvation.
There is a huge difference. |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: |
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trettep quoted:
| Quote: | Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: |
Our deeds show wheather we are living in belief or unbelief, and it is the belief or unbelief that we are judged by.
You make a very common mistake of trying to be wooden literal with Gods word, this will always cause conflict and misunderstanding. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | | Quote: | trettep said:
The verses you were quoting was showing us that via our fleshy works we couldn't be saved but via Faith (which requires works) we shall be saved. |
I think you are mistaken when you say faith (requires) works. James is not saying we have to work for salvation, but that works will naturally follow our salvation.
There is a huge difference. |
JimD, I'm saying that by Faith works are required to be saved. I'm not saying that to have Faith requires good works. Thus SAVING Faith requires Works.
Paul
Last edited by trettep on Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | trettep quoted:
| Quote: | Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: |
Our deeds show wheather we are living in belief or unbelief, and it is the belief or unbelief that we are judged by.
You make a very common mistake of trying to be wooden literal with Gods word, this will always cause conflict and misunderstanding. |
JimD, I agree with you that our deeds show whether we are living as believers or unbelievers. I also agree with you that God judges our belief and unbelief. But HOW does He judge that belief or unbelief? By our Works. It is precisely our DEEDS (works) by which we receive eternal life - do you agree that Paul has stated such in Romans 2:5-7? If so, then it should be obvious that Good works are required to be saved. Can we agree therefore that Good works are required to be saved?
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
Paul |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Greetings Paul,
Hi Judy,
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | Since your answer is no then I'm curious how you reconcile your answer with regards to these verses:
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Is not Paul saying that eternal life (salvation) rendered according to works?
Paul |
First I consider that my 'deeds' are to hold fast to my profession of faith until he comes and secondly I believe that judgment will be determined by the words of one's mouth.
Romans 3:4, "God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."
The words of my mouth, before God, will most certainly not be, 'Lord have I not done many wonderful works in your name', as we all know what Christ' response was to that statement.
Galatians 2:21, "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Romans 3:28, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
Respectfully in Christ, Judy |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Hi again Paul,
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | | Can we agree therefore that Good works are required to be saved? |
Could you tell me what you consider 'Good works' to be?
In Christ, Judy |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | Hi again Paul,
Paul wrote:
| Quote: | | Can we agree therefore that Good works are required to be saved? |
Could you tell me what you consider 'Good works' to be?
In Christ, Judy |
Sure Nana. It would be to turn the cheek. To not resist evil. To do good unto those that hate and despise you. To follow the commandments of God to not lie, steal, bear false, witness, lust, hate, etc... against your neighbor and much more...
Paul |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi Paul,
I will have to agree with you. But the reason I did not at first was because I was refering to the initial act of salvation that was done for all man kind at the cross, without mans prompting.
I do not believe that Christ is a 'personal savior'; saves man from sin upon request. I see that Christ died for the sin of the world once and for all and that was done when man was dead in sin. I believe that salvation (the forgiveness of sin) was accomplished solely by Christ without the works of man.
True faith in God produces works just at it did when Abraham offered up Issac as a sacrifice to God. He knew that God would restore his Son because of his promise to bless the world through his seed. I see this as works of faith, not the works of the law.
| Quote: | Sure Nana. It would be to turn the cheek. To not resist evil. To do good unto those that hate and despise you. To follow the commandments of God to not lie, steal, bear false, witness, lust, hate, etc... against your neighbor and much more...
Paul |
The way I see it is these works that you mentions are a confirmation of faith. They are born of faith or elce faith would be dead. And yes, as you have said they are an integral part of salvation that accompanies our faith.
I am sorry that I was not clear in the beginning. I do hope that I am clearer now. Please let me know if I am not making myself understood.
In Christ, Judy |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: |
The way I see it is these works that you mentions are a confirmation of faith. They are born of faith or elce faith would be dead. And yes, as you have said they are an integral part of salvation that accompanies our faith.
I am sorry that I was not clear in the beginning. I do hope that I am clearer now. Please let me know if I am not making myself understood.
In Christ, Judy |
I think I understand you Judy. I have a saying Judy and maybe I borrowed it from some others as I don't know where I picked it up but it is: we are saved By Jesus and not Because of Jesus. Think about that phrase for a moment. Do you grasp what I'm trying to convey with that phrase. To be saved BY Jesus means we can only be saved by performing those Good Works that He performed. We can't do that unless we already have Faith. But some have stopped short of salvation by proclaiming to be saved because they have faith. Their argument is that they can't do what is just and good because they themselves are wretched sinners. That is a true statement but it lacks acknowledgement that Jesus is NOT a wretched sinner and by His Works thru us we achieve perfection. This is SO IMPORTANT to understand. If the only change we make in our lives is to belief that God sent His Son to die for us and that we honesty believe that but yet do NOT perform His Works then we are in error in our understanding. I hope you can see what I'm saying. Please ask questions. I know there are many "churches" or "faiths" that are preaching a salvation that doesn't accomplish salvation. Not only must we perform His Works but we must Grow in the abundance of those works (See the parable of the talents aka pounds).
I hope this is what your understanding is as well. If not, please go into detail as to what you believe regarding this subject.
Paul |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | trettep said:
JimD, I agree with you that our deeds show whether we are living as believers or unbelievers. I also agree with you that God judges our belief and unbelief. But HOW does He judge that belief or unbelief? By our Works. |
This issue deals with the very heart of the gospel, Consequently we need to be very careful how we present it.
It is a critical error to say that God judges our belief/unbelief by our works. He knows if our belief is real before we ever say a word or do a deed.
Good deeds/bad deeds come after salvation/destruction, and are nothing more than a witness to others (not God, he already knows) of our belief/ unbelief. Good deeds have nothing to do with our salvation, only with our witness to others.
James said: I will show you (others, not God) my faith by my works.
I believe in good works with all my heart, but not so God will save me but because God saved me, and to be a witness of him to others.
Sure good deeds will follow true salvation, if you can call them good deeds, (we cannot, God can) because they are always tainted by imperfection. Only by belief in Christ are they cleaned up and made acceptable to God.
I have to tell you i am suspicious of why you find it necessary to say good works are required for salvation, when the whole bible seems to teach this is the downfall of man. I hope i am not misunderstanding you, i have great respect for your ability to reason.
JimD |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| JimD wrote: | ...
It is a critical error to say that God judges our belief/unbelief by our works. He knows if our belief is real before we ever say a word or do a deed.
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JimD, it is NOT error to say that God judges our belief/unbelief by our works. Obviously, Paul as I showed before, is stating exactly that our WORKS determine whether or not we receive salvation. Regardless of if He knows if our belief is real before we ever say a word or do a deed, He has specifically TOLD US via His Word that He would Judged US based on Works. Again, look at this verse:
1Pe 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
| JimD wrote: |
I believe in good works with all my heart, but not so God will save me but because God saved me, and to be a witness of him to others.
Sure good deeds will follow true salvation, if you can call them good deeds, (we cannot, God can) because they are always tainted by imperfection. Only by belief in Christ are they cleaned up and made acceptable to God.
I have to tell you i am suspicious of why you find it necessary to say good works are required for salvation, when the whole bible seems to teach this is the downfall of man. I hope i am not misunderstanding you, i have great respect for your ability to reason.
JimD |
JimD, the Bible teaches that our own works which lead to sin is our downfall. We need to overcome our own evil with good.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
We read:
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
The word "scarcely" actually means with "difficulty". So the righteous are saved with difficulty.
Furthermore we are admonished to do those good works:
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
I must affirm those words constantly as well. I'm hoping to provoke others to do good works:
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
I provoke because I know the Importance of it towards our salvation which comes at the end of our Faith:
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Notice those verses show us that SALVATION comes at the END of Faith - AT the appearing of Jesus Christ.
Paul |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi all, (Pleased you joined us Judy!  )
Sorry for my absence, been a bit busy lately.
I've just been reading all your posts and I find myself agreeing with all of them. I see the point that Paul is making but I also see the point that Judy and Jim are making. I think what we are missing here is the key that will make both fall into place and that is "MOTIVE"!
IOW the question is not WORKS or NO WORKS but MOTIVE? What is the MOTIVATION behind our WORKS.
Is it Love or something else?
Take children for example when they have done something naughty. Sometimes they are motivated to do good WORKS because they feel bad and hope to earn your LOVE and approval. There works are motivated by a sense of DEBT. Sometimes they want something in return and hope to manipulate you with their good WORKS while lacking the fruits of true Repentance. This becomes obvious to us by their attitude and behaviour when we don't give them what they want. And then sometimes we find our children doing good WORKS and we can tell that they are doing it out of a deep Love for us. They give us hugs and smiles of appreciation and warmth, offering to help us with our WORK. So we give them some of our jobs, which sometimes they delight in and skip off happily with Joy in their hearts as my 3 year old says, "Otay Mum!" While other times, upon hearing our instructions they just freeze as their heart drops, and looking up at us wide-eyed they proclaim  , "I Tan't do it!!! It's too hard!" So we say to them, "That's okay, I will help you!" Sometimes we help them immediately, but other times we are busy with something else and we tell them, "You just go and start doing the job as best you can and I will be there to help you soon." Sometimes they will run back to us several times saying the same thing, "I Tan't do it!!! It's too hard!"  That eventually we get tired with their nagging so we drop what we are doing to help them. Other times they walk off as if the promise of your help is enough to get them started, only to find when you get there that they haven't done a thing and have run off to play. Your a little disappointed but you go to them and ask them to come back and do the job you asked them to do. Sometimes they are so happy with what they are doing that they don't care any more about pleasing you but pleasing themselves (their love for you has waxed cold) and so they resist you and fight you and moan and carry on that eventually you end up going and doing the job yourself. Eventually they grow tired of what they are doing and they come and ask you for a treat. Your reaction is often to remind them about the job you asked them to do and so begins the cycle all over again.
We are told to walk in the Love of God. Many Scriptures indicate that not all Good Works are a sign that we are walking in the Love of God. The Love of God is a condition of the Heart and the Good Works of God flourish out of the Love that He has shed in our Hearts. IOW, 2 people can be doing the exact same Work but only one of them is walking in the Love of God. For example:
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love, I am become as sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing. Love suffers long, and is kind; love envies not; love vaunts not itself, is not puffed up, Does not behave itself rudely, seeks not her own, is not easily provoked, keeps no record of evil; Rejoices not in injustice, but rejoices in the truth; Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:1-13
...though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing...
As this verse indicates Faith without Love is also dead! Why? Because True Faith in God = Faith in Love because GOD IS LOVE:
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. He that loves not knows not God; for God is love. 1 John 4:7-8
Dwelling in God = Dwelling in Love
Faith in God = Faith in Love
If we TRULY seek to dwell in God and we BELIEVE that God is Love as described here:
Love suffers long, and is kind; love envies not; love vaunts not itself, is not puffed up, Does not behave itself rudely, seeks not her own, is not easily provoked, keeps no record of evil; Rejoices not in injustice, but rejoices in the truth; Bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. 1 Co 13:4-8
Than we will seek to dwell in this Love at all times, knowing that by doing so we are dwelling in God. And people will see it, and feel it and benefit from our Faith in Love because all of our Words and Deeds will be MOTIVATED by this desire to dwell in Love.
Love Always
Bitterlily |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Faith = God is Love and if I am dwelling in Love I am dwelling in God!
Faith by Works =
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to not resist evil (done to me) I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to turn the other cheek when the other has been slapped I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to give my cloak to the person who takes my coat I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to go 2 miles when I have been asked to go 1 I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to give or lend to all those who ask I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to Love my enemies and bless them when they curse me I will be dwelling in God!
If I Seek and dwell in the LOVE that empowers me to pray for those who despitefully use me, and persecute me I will be dwelling in God!
So you see? We will be judged by our Faith and our Works because they are one and the same thing!
In this is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17
Love Always
Bitterlily |
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