WHAT IS SATAN?

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

Bitterlily, I do remember the conversation, and was very encouraged to see that you never did come right out and make the statement that we must do good deeds in order to be saved, but I could discern you were as we say, riding the fence. Never fear, riding the fence is not a bad place to be. I find myself in that position quite often, and although its uncomfortable, it shows the mind is still open and willing to learn. God will bless you for that!
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 746

JimD,
My final paper in college was on the Holy Spirit Old Testament and New. It is clear that the Spirit was present with the Prophets and the Priests and the Kings, but that the Holy Spirit didn't inhabit humanity. If you were to take the time to study the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, you would find that, the Holy Spirit came upon the Prophets and came upon the Kings and came upon the priests. You find one text that remotely suggests that the Holy Spirit dwells with in man in the Old Testament and you are convinced. Luke 23:46 is a good place to start. Jesus said to his Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. (pneuma) Pneuma is often times used to describe spirits other than the Holy Spirit. Acts 16:16 again the Greek word used for the spirit of divination was pneuma. Again a spirit other than the Holy Spirit. Most scholars agree that Joshua was a man who had a spirit of integrity and righteousness. He was also a man who had a great faith in God. That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit was in him.

There is no forgiveness of sin with out the shedding of Blood. Jesus died after Joshua not before. There was no perfect sacrifice in the Old Testament but there was the hope of new life in the promise of the Messiah. The perfect sacrifice.

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JB, I am well aware that you hold the popular view, and I understand why you do, it is much easier and safer to just believe what you are taught. But please do not close your mind, it can greatly hinder your growth.

There are many reasons why I believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, Numbers 27:18 is one of the best, this is strait from the mouth of God, and if you will not at least rethink your position on the strength of this, there is no point to try to share the other reasons.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 746

JimD,
What is that popular view that you feel that I hold? I am always interested in learning more about my God. Like Ross Perot, I am all ears. Very Happy

I would like to hear what you have to share.

Seek truth and you will, find it.

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 746

JimD,
I was being sincere. I guess you just don't have my sense of humor.

Came Upon, What does that mean ?

Well JimB,
Rahapl was the word used to describe the work of the Spirit of God in creation. It means to brood over or to hover over gently with a fluttering motion as a bird over her young.

A mother bird hovers over her eggs until they are hatched and the mother bird continues to hover over the babies while they gain new life and strength.That is the picture that we must comprehend in terms of the Holy Spirit coming upon :

Numbers 11:29 But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit on them."

Isaiah 63:11-12 The Holy Spirit was among them.

Judges 6:34 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon.

Judges 3:10 The spirit of the Lord came upon.

Judges 6:34 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon.

Judges 14:6 The Spirit of the Lord came upon him.

1 Samuel 10:6 The Spirit of the Lord will come upon you.

1 Samuel 16:13 And since that day the Spirit of the Lord was on David.

Ezekiel 11:5Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon me.

Numbers 11:7 and when the Spirit came upon the elders.

rahapl. It is a beautiful word with a very significant meaning. I am not a great debater, but I do really believe that some how we need to reconcile this difference. Until Jesus shed His blood, the Holy Spirit came upon people ( Prophets Priests and Kings)

If you feel that I am wrong, please explain. I simply seek truth and I know that I don't have the market cornered on it. And by the way, I am not a main stream Bible Student. I think for myself, study for myself, and I have developed many independent doctrinal positions that goes against mainstream Christian theology.

Again I am sorry if I sounded insincere.

If we seek truth we will find it.

[/b]

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JB, now you sound sincere. I did notice, and appreciate you have rejected the doctrine of eternal security, and hopefully its parent doctrine of total predestination. How about original sin?
But one thing at a time. Since the beginning of time, true belief in God brings about, by God, a separation from sin and dedication to Him. In other words our spirit (which is really Gods spirit that we have messed up by sin) is separated from sin and rededicated to His Spirit by forgiveness of sin. Sound familiar, Holy in Greek means separated from, dedicated to. Ps 32:2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And (in)whose spirit there is no deceit! So you see, a person whose sins are forgiven, has God, has the Holy Spirit, has Jesus. A man who has one has all three. You do believe all three are one, right? You will notice that I do not use the word (person) just three names that all mean the one God. Kind of like the old song, Love and Marriage, you can't have one without the ooother. Not done yet, But:
To answer another question, I am very aware of the concept that God hovers over us, He is everywhere. But He dwells in those who believe in Him, we just do not read about many in the Old testament who believed, and we are usually reading about them collectively. Yes God mostly hovered over them but I am sure He was (in) those who believed in Him.
This is hard work! But I love it! Are you with me so far? Give me some feedback. I am going to lunch.
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 746

JimD,
As I mentioned in my last post, I am not a main stream student of theology. The Church has been indoctrinated by the beliefs of a few and to that score I am disappointed. I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I believe that they both fail to clearly reconcile the scriptures as we have them today. I also believe that there is only one way to lose your salvation and that is to stop trusting totally in Christ. I even struggle with that thought. I do not believe that sin sends us to hell and I don't believe that God only chooses certain people but what I do believe is that we can have victory over sin, not as a requirement of salvation but as the gift of empowerment from the Holy Spirit. Romans 3 says we have fallen short of the Glory of God. The Glory of God is the image we once had. That was the glory of God and now through the Holy Spirit God intends to bring us back to that Adamic state that He originally intended for us to be.

As far as the Holy Spirit dwelling in people and Coming upon them there is no contest for me. The heart couldn't be clean until Jesus died. For there is no forgiveness of sin with out the shedding of blood.
The scriptures are clear that animal sacrifices were imperfect and only a perfect sacrifice could bring about full forgiveness. That would be Jesus. In the Old Testament they were forgiven of their sins by faith but that is a totally different subject.

In the Old testament the activity of the Holy Spirit was just as real as it was and still is in the New Testament.
There is only one difference The Disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. Numbers 11:29 Says that Moses wished that the Holy Spirit would come upon all the people and that they would be prophets. Why? So that they would understand the moving of God as Moses did.

The spirit that you referred to in Numbers 27 I believe refers to the spirit that he had towards life and law, not the Holy Spirit of God. We all have a spirit that doesn't mean that it is the Holy Spirit.

Jim we just have to agreeably disagree on this one.

I am also very careful when I refer to the Holy Spirit, because I don't believe that the Holy Spirit is just the energy of God but I believe that He is God and I must always honor Him as God. For don't you know that we are the temple of God? Who dwells in us? God/Holy Spirit. They are uniquely one and that union is beyond human comprehension.

I would love to talk more and please remember, I am not normally a critical person and none of what is posted here is intended to be critical. If you interpret it that way, I apologize.

May God bless you in your quest for truth.

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JB · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 746

JimD,
I am in total agreement with the Old Testament promise that people were saved by the blood of Christ. It flows both ways. That was never an issue, and nothing I wrote suggested that, but they didn't receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came upon them. Jesus has always been the promise and the hope, even if they didn't recognize it.
Israel is still waiting for their Messiah. Because they missed out we have been grafted into the family of God.
To this there is no debate but the question still remains, did the Holy Spirit fill people in the Old Testament or did the Holy Spirit come upon people?
You are the one that doesn't seem to get your head around the Old Testament scriptures.

JimD,
There is a difference between being saved and being filled with the Spirit of God. Peter was saved in Matthew 17 when he acknowledged the Revelation of God. Peter said to Jesus, thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Flesh and blood didn't reveal this to Christ but his Heavenly Father did.This is revelation. The Holy Spirit didn't come until Pentecost.
Jesus said, I must go so that the comforter can come.

As far as your question about Adamic sin, when we are saved, we aren't just restored but we are renewed. The Holy Spirit begins a new work in us and that work is referred to as progressive sanctification. 1 Thes. 5:13.

Salvation finds its roots in the salvage process. As you grow in Christ and He reveals His truths to you, you grow in strength and in knowledge.
People aren't freed when they receive Christ but when they are filled with Christ. I see more Christians that are in bondage than those that aren't in bondage.

As for your comment on my need to receive the Holy Spirit, I agree. Once isn't enough. Through out the book of Acts, the Disciple were continually being filled with the Holy Spirit. But your suggestion seems to question my salvation. That is quite bold and quite honestly is also quite presumptive. My encounters with Christ have been quite real and undeniable. You obviously are at a different place spiritually than I am but I am not sure where that would be.

Originally I responded to your misunderstanding of the Works and purpose of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. Some how we seemed to get off track. The other subjects are important but so is the Works of the Holy Spirit, Old testament and New.
I guess there is nothing more to say on the subject of the Holy Spirit.

God bless you my brother and keep the faith.Your Christian friend,
John

JimD · Young Wolf Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 510

JB, I am sorry if I came across as doubting your salvation, it is the farthest thing from my mind. The reason I keep getting off the subject is there seems to be a connection to so many other subjects. So many things need to be understood in order to understand something else. Another thing is I find it extremely difficult to put my thoughts into print.
When we are saved we are freed from sin, most just cannot comprehend all that means, and you are right it is a growth process. I just cannot comprehend how anyone can be saved by God and not have Him come into them, it seems like a contradiction.
Could you please respond to my question about predestination, and what about original sin?
What do you believe the original sin was?

Do you believe we all inherit that sin from Adam?

And or do you believe at some point in our life we become guilty of sin on our own?
_________________
Anyone can point out a scripture here and there and prove anything they want to believe, but good theology is understanding the message of the gospel as a whole. Sincerely, JimD