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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...
Bitterlily, I read something you wrote..I was thinking about this this morning:
| Quote: | It seems to be our human nature that we all constantly stray from the Lord (not necessarily in thought but in Spirit and in Deed) and it's not until the rod of affliction comes upon us that we realize and cry out to the Lord and He saves us. Some seem to perceive God as being the type who likes to kick people when they are down and say , "Too late! I told you so! But ya didn't listen! No second chances." When in reality:
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, who need no repentance. Luke 15:7 |
I'm hovering down in the political forum thinking about the days of Joseph and the famine that was upon Egypt.
And as I was thinking..
When everything is going good and we are rich and full, we have a tendency to not lean on the Lord for support. We can "handle it", we can "stand on our own two feet".
But it's in the times of trial and tribulations that we seek out help.
And what IS Satan's role in the whole of things?,
Is it not to pull the rug out from under our feet so we will fall towards to Lord for help?
To seek strength when we are weak?
Thinking a bit deeper here:
When we are content and are full then are we blind to those things which are lacking. Our need for support.
But when the cover of security is uncovered from our eyes, we see that we need support, we need to be loved, we need to be saved.
So who uncovers the eyes and let's the light in?
We are told that the serpent led Adam and Eve to have their eyes opened. We are told that Jesus came and opened the eyes of the blind. We are told that God has blinded us...how?
By supplying our daily needs, wants, and desires?
Making us comfortable and content so that we get lazy and off guard. But then we are brought through trials and tribulations to make us stronger while we are weak.
So that whether we are in the good times or the bad times, we will always remember to Love the Lord with heart, mind and soul, everyday, for everything.
I believe Satan serves God's purpose. Whether we understand it or agree with it doesn't really matter. The purpose is to bring us to our knees, so we will give thanks for everything.
Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord [is].
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Satan's got a dirty job..but somebody has to do it.. 
hugs
lone |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: |
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If Jesus was in every manner tempted as we are (and I believe He was tempted for more than we are) then can you see how that Jesus would have to bridal His Tongue also?
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Wouldn't Jesus have to have "bridelth" His tongue?
I believe so.
Paul |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Paul,
what do you think the greatest temptation facing man is?
hugs
lone |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Hi Paul,
what do you think the greatest temptation facing man is?
hugs
lone |
Don't know of a single thing. But I think there is some logic to say that the more power you have the more temptation your potentially faced with. Obviously, Jesus had a lot of power.
Paul |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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How are ya Love! 
| lone-traveler wrote: | | I believe Satan serves God's purpose. Whether we understand it or agree with it doesn't really matter. The purpose is to bring us to our knees, so we will give thanks for everything. |
I agree! I reckon Job's experience is enough proof of that! |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Hi JimD
| JimD wrote: | Satan is probably the fleshly nature of man, the natural man.   |
Are you taking these verses into account?
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, From where come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one that fears God, and turns away from evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Does Job fear God for nothing? Have not you made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he has on every side? you have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions are increased in the land. But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself put not forth your hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 1:6-12
Note that the unclean spirits which Jesus cast out of people knew that He was the Son of God:
And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, You are the Son of God. And he sternly charged them that they should not make him known. Mark 3:11-12
And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, Jesus of Nazareth? are you come to destroy us? I know you, who you are, the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold your peace, and COME OUT OF HIM. And when the unclean spirit had convulsed him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him. And they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority he commands even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him. Mark 1:23-27
If you do a search you will notice the demons and unclean SPIRITS that were cast out of people are one and the same thing, and Jesus equates the casting out of these SPIRITS with the casting out of SATAN:
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow does not cast out demons, but by Beelzebub the prince of the demons. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan CASTS OUT Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? Matthew 12:24-26
Note also that if the natural man was Satan then the Apostle Paul would not be telling the Ephesians to put off the Natural Man:
That you put off concerning the former way of life the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Ephesians 4:22
But instead he would be casting out the Natural Man for them as Jesus commanded His disciples to do:
And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons: freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:7-8
Remember also, that the Disciples of Jesus were casting out Demons long before they received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. IOW they were still in the Natural Man, and if Satan is the Natural Man then Satan was casting out Satan, which goes against what Jesus said.
Hope you are all well!
Love Lil |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Bitterlily, All your references are about Satan being in and among men, thats my point.
| Quote: | | Bitterlily said:Remember also, that the Disciples of Jesus were casting out Demons long before they received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. IOW they were still in the Natural Man, and if Satan is the Natural Man then Satan was casting out Satan, which goes against what Jesus said. |
The disciples of Jesus had the Holy Spirit before they ever met Jesus, (Jesus said these were yours (God) and you gave them to me,(speaking of the Disciples). How could they have God and not have the Holy Spirit??? This is a very popular error in Christian theology. What they received at Pentecost was a very special gift of the Holy Spirit that enabled them to witness in a very special way.
Satan does not cast out Satan, The Holy Spirit casts out Satan, as you well know.
The idea that believers before Christ did not have the Holy Spirit is a product of immature learning and teaching about what Jesus ment when he said the Spirit cannot come unless I go away.
Does the above have a ring of truth to it? If it does I would be glad to discuss it further with you.  |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Hi JimD,
| JimD wrote: | | Does the above have a ring of truth to it? If it does I would be glad to discuss it further with you. |
Sorry, yes your right JimD! I stand corrected! The disciples did indeed have the Holy Spirit before Pentecost. Here's the verse I was alluding to when writing this:
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you. John 14:17
The Spirit of truth...
Dwells with you...
and shall be in you...
So technically the Disciples did have the Spirit in that He dwelt with them but He did not yet dwell in them according to this verse.
This doesn't however take anything away from my point that the Natural Man is not the SPIRIT of Satan that was cast out of people by Jesus and His disciples. The Natural Man is something we each, individually must put off. IOW:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16
| Quote: | | ...is a product of immature learning and teaching... |
Is it really necessary to make statements like these JimD? 
Kind Regards
Bitterlily |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Bitterlily said:So technically the Disciples did have the Spirit in that He dwelt with them but He did not yet dwell in them according to this verse. |
I think you are making a distinction that is not ment to be made. God/Holy Spirit is with someone but not in them! Where is He? On a tree limb, waiting to pounce? What did David mean when he ask God to not take the Holy Spirit from him? From outside of him maybe? Or maybe David and three or four other believers were the only ones to enjoy this blessing? "When I was a child I thought as a child" but we need to grow up!
| Quote: | | Bitterlily said: The Natural Man is something we each, individually must put off. |
I hope you mean God/Holy Spirit/ Jesus is putting the natural man off! Casting him out
Never mind! Now that I've thought about it, this is more of that same old thinking, I must do something to save myself, its like a fatal disease, once we get it, only a special work of God will get rid of it, smile.
I think its called forgiveness of sin, which without we are all dead.
| Quote: | | JimD said:...is a product of immature learning and teaching... |
| Quote: | | Bitterlily said:is it really necessary to make statements like these JimD? |
If it is true, it certainly needs to be said, but do not take it as a slur but hopefully as a helpful criticism. We all need desperately to grow up. Did Jesus or Paul ever make this kind of statement? You bet and worse, to "religious" people, no less. Just look at the mess of immature beliefs on this forum, and each one thinking we have the inside track on the truth, (gag!) If it were not for faith in God it would make a person sick to death, thank God, He did that for us! |
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JB
Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 535
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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No one But Christ had the Holy Spirit in them before His death on the cross. It was through the shed blood of Christ that the human heart became inhabitable by the Holy Spirit. God cannot inhabit the places of sin. In the Old testament the Holy Spirit would come upon people, not dwell in them. Normally it was the prophet the Priest or the King that would have this external encounter with the Holy Spirit. That leaves us with a difficulty and that is the revelation of truth at salvation. If He can't dwell with in us before salvation then He has to some how influence our hearts and minds externally. Very few theologians would disagree with that statement.
I hoped that this helped a little. |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Quote from John Calvin:
For the Holy Spirit was not yet given. We know that
the Spirit is eternal; but the Evangelist declares that, so
long as Christ dwelt in the world in the form of a
servant, that grace of the Spirit, which was poured out on
men after the resurrection of Christ, had not been openly
manifested. And, indeed, he speaks comparatively, in the
same manner as when the New Testament is compared to the
Old. God promises his Spirit to his elect and believers,
as if he had never given him to the Fathers. At that
very time, the disciples had undoubtedly received the
Spirit; for whence comes faith but from
the Spirit? The Evangelist, therefore, does not
affirm that the grace of the Spirit was not offered and
given to believers before the death of Christ, but
that it was not yet so bright and illustrious as it would
afterwards become.
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Nu 27:15 Then Moses spoke to the LORD, saying,
16 "May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,
17 who will go out and come in before them, and who will lead them out and bring them in, so that the congregation of the LORD will not be like sheep which have no shepherd."
18 So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, (a man in whom is the Spirit), and lay your hand on him; |
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JB
Wolf
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 535
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:19 am Post subject: |
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JimD,
As Jesus spoke to the Disciples He made a very clear distinction. John 14:17. That is the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you (Not in you) and will be in you.
Jesus is clearly pointing out that He must ascend to heaven before a person can be filled with the Holy Spirit. The vessel of God must first be cleansed and that requires the blood of Jesus Christ. No Old Testament figure was cleansed. The Holy Spirit would abide with them, not in them. At Pentecost, they were all filled with the Holy Spirit. No place in Old Testament scriptures do we see this type of event.
Seek truth and you will find it. |
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trettep
Lion
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
Posts: 910
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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To understand what the Holy Spirit is you must first realize what the Holy Spirit is not. The Holy Spirit is NOT another person of some Trinity of persons. If the Holy Spirit were another person then God wouldn't have compared this Holy Spirit to that spirit which is in man. Furthermore, if the Holy Spirit was another person then SURELY the Holy Spirit would have been a part of every salutation in the Epistles and yet it is void from ALL of them:
James 1:1
(1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 Peter 1:2
(2) Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
1 John 1:3
(3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
Romans 1:7
(7) To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:3
(3) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:2
(2) Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:3
(3) Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 1:2
(2) Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:2
(2) Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:2
(2) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:1
(1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:2
(2) Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 1:1-2
(1) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; (2) Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Titus 1:4
(4) To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Philemon 1:3
(3) Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
So let's realize what the Holy Spirit is not so we can discuss what the Holy Spirit is.
Paul |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Hi JimD,
| Quote: | | I think you are making a distinction that is not ment to be made. God/Holy Spirit is with someone but not in them! |
You could be right and I'm certainly open to the possibility.
| Quote: | | Where is He? On a tree limb, waiting to pounce? What did David mean when he ask God to not take the Holy Spirit from him? From outside of him maybe? Or maybe David and three or four other believers were the only ones to enjoy this blessing? "When I was a child I thought as a child" but we need to grow up! |
I agree!
| Quote: | Bitterlily said: The Natural Man is something we each, individually must put off.
| Quote: | | I hope you mean God/Holy Spirit/ Jesus is putting the natural man off! |
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Yes of course! Which is why I followed this statement with this verse:
| Bitterlily wrote: | | This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16 |
You seem to be missing the point that I was making which was that the unclean Spirits of Satan that were CAST OUT of many in the Gospels are not the same thing (in my honest opinion) as the putting off of the Natural Man. The reason I make this distinction is because when the Holy Spirit of Jesus first came into my life He cast out many unclean spirits from me. But the putting off of my Old Man has been a gradual process as I have been learning more and more to walk in the Holy Spirit.
| Quote: | | Now that I've thought about it, this is more of that same old thinking, I must do something to save myself, its like a fatal disease, once we get it, |
No JimD! I don't believe this at all! Have you forgotten our "Works of the New Covenant Law" study? I'm only going by memory but I'm sure that I clarified in that study that (I believe) we can do NOTHING to save ourselves!!!!
I found it! :
| Bitterlily wrote: | Now JimD , I recall you saying in a previous post:
| JimD wrote: | | ...if sprinkled by the blood of Jesus (belief) and cleansed from dead works (trying to save ourselves by keeping the law) |
I agree with this 100%! BUT what I had never considered until recently was that this not only referred to the OC Law but the NC commandments of Jesus as well. Don't get me wrong, I have known for a long time that I could not keep Jesus commandments in my own strength because I had already tried very hard to and let's just say it didn't end well! What I have only just realized is that any attempts by the flesh to keep the commandments of Jesus are DEAD WORKS. Because this is just the Old Man trying to be Holy which is impossible. (I might need to explain this a little better which I will do as we go along.) |
| Quote: | | only a special work of God will get rid of it, smile. |
I absolutely agree! The Grace of God... don't you remember me writing about this in our other study?
I found it!
| bitterlily wrote: | When there is no good thing in our flesh, how are we supposed to perform the Commandments of Jesus (the Works of the New Covenant Law)?
For by GRACE are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10
By Grace...
And not forgetting this:
Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians 3:3
The good works that God has before ordained that we walk in them are not works of the flesh but of the Spirit obtained by Grace. How do we obtain Grace?:
Likewise, you younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble. 1 Peter 5:5 |
| Quote: | | I think its called forgiveness of sin, which without we are all dead. |
Yes I agree! And God's Grace, which without we are slaves to the lusts of our Old Man!
| Quote: | | If it were not for faith in God it would make a person sick to death, thank God, He did that for us! |
Thank God indeed!
With Love
Lily |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Num. 27:18 So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;
JB, what part of "a man in whom is the Spirit" did you not understand?
Albert Barnes Quote:
For the Holy Spirit was not yet given. Was not given in such full and large measures as should be after Jesus had ascended to heaven. Certain measures of the influences of the Spirit had been always given in the conversion and sanctification of the ancient saints and prophets; but that abundant and full effusion which the apostles were permitted afterward to behold had not yet been given.
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John Gill Quote:
"for the Holy Spirit was not yet come"; he was; he was in being as a divine Spirit, equal with the Father and Son, so he was from everlasting; and he had been bestowed in his grace upon the Old Testament saints, and rested in his gifts upon the prophets of that time.
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Robertson Quote:
For the Spirit was not yet given (oupw gar hn pneuma). No verb for "given" in the Greek. The reference is not to the existence of the Spirit, but to the special activity of the Spirit. This same use of eimi like pareimi (to be present) appears in #Ac 19:2 of the Spirit’s activity. John, writing at the close of the century, inserts this comment and interpretation of the language of Jesus as an allusion to the coming of the Holy Spirit at pentecost (the Promise of the Father).
Trettep, I agree, the Holy Spirit is not a person, neither is God, or Jesus, only when Jesus was on the earth was He a person, they are three distinctions or names for the same Spirit, God. When the Old Testament speaks of the Spirit of the Lord, you could insert, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and get the same meaning. Ditto in the New Testament. |
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