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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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God NEVER said an angel was His Son.
An angel can not legitimately be made lower than an angel. That is a deception.
God NEVER asked any angel to sit at his right hand
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, [even] Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (Heb. 6:20) KJV
Jesus clearly wasn't literally Melchisedec but a High-Priest 'after the order' of Melchisedek.
Your reasoning that Jesus is literally the resurrected Melchisedek or is / was a heavenly angel being is bizarre and flat out wrong!
Cheers! |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Composer: | Quote: | | An angel can not legitimately be made lower than an angel. That is a deception. |
Yes an angel can... if he is born a man (as we are lower than angels). Jesus was born a man. While he resided here on earth, he was 'made lower' than an angel.
I may or may not have the Melchizedek part right however I do believe Melchizedek was an angel. He had no beginning, no end, no lineage and though he was more than Abraham, he gave tithes to Abraham and wine and bread. What do you suppose the tithe was? 10% of his kingdom? Did he have an earthly kingdom if he was not descended from man? What do you suppose the wine and bread meant? Could it have been a precursor? Could it have symbolized the blood that Jesus would later shed for us and his body?
Why do you find it so hard to believe that Jesus was an angel before being sent down here to earth?
And if Melchizedek was not an angel, where did he come from?
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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[quote="luvnlife"] Composer: | Quote: | | An angel can not legitimately be made lower than an angel. That is a deception. |
| luvnlife wrote: | | Yes an angel can... if he is born a man (as we are lower than angels). Jesus was born a man. While he resided here on earth, he was 'made lower' than an angel. |
So where in the Bible does it indicate that heavenly angels can die and become 'born anew' as a literal man?
I will look at the next part after dealing with this first.
Thanks |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
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luvnlife,
Hi,
| luvnlife wrote: | | Yes an angel can... if he is born a man (as we are lower than angels). Jesus was born a man. While he resided here on earth, he was 'made lower' than an angel. |
Amen to that. 
| luvnlife wrote: | | And if Melchizedek was not an angel, where did he come from? |
I don't agree that Melchizedek was an angel. Melchizedek was the king of Salem and “priest of the Most High God,” Jehovah. There is "no recorded end" to his being a priest. So:
| Quote: |
In a notable Messianic prophecy the sworn oath of Jehovah to David’s “Lord” is: “You are a priest to time indefinite according to the manner of Melchizedek!” (Ps 110:1, 4) This inspired psalm gave the Hebrews reason to regard the promised Messiah as the one in whom the office of priest and king would be combined. The apostle Paul, in the letter to the Hebrews, removed any doubt about the identity of the one foretold, speaking of “Jesus, who has become a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek forever.” |
Bold mine
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Agape,
TBax |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:58 am Post subject: |
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composer,
At this point it is quite simple.
You admitted that "Christ is God's chief Messenger." (archaggelos)
The Bible calls Michael "the chief messenger". (archaggelos)
Therefore Jesus is Michael, "the chief messenger"! (archaggelos)
Thank you for helping to prove that point!
| composer wrote: | | ignoring that Jesus wasn't 'The Word' but only 'the image of God |
Rev 19:13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.
Cheers!
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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With that none sense Logic God must be an angel -
Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name [ is ] in him. (Ex. 23:20 - 21) KJV
NB: God's name is also the name carried by the angel!
Pity your J.W god didn't pick your revelation that Michael = Jesus when it earlier wrote - Michael The Watchtower Reprints, November 11, 1879, p. 48 “’Let all the angels of God worship him’; (that must include Michael , the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God)” (My Bold)
What is proven so far, is that the J.W's and their Jesus doesn't equal Michael, Michael is the Pope Oops! Michael = Jesus and their like minded clones, haven't a clue!
Cheers! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| composer wrote: | Pity your J.W god didn't pick your revelation that Michael = Jesus when it earlier wrote - Michael The Watchtower Reprints, November 11, 1879, p. 48 “’Let all the angels of God worship him’; (that must include Michael , the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God)” (My Bold)
What is proven so far, is that the J.W's and their Jesus doesn't equal Michael, Michael is the Pope Oops! Michael = Jesus and their like minded clones, haven't a clue!
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Nice job continuing with that factual fallacy. It is also a strawman, and in this case a red herring.  It doesn't address the point but draws attention away from it. Good job. 
| composer wrote: | With that none sense Logic God must be an angel -
Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name [ is ] in him. (Ex. 23:20 - 21) KJV
NB: God's name is also the name carried by the angel!
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Yes. The angels God sends do the things he sends under His authority, in God's name. God's true people also carry God's name. Nice job introducing a red herring. Doesn't apply to the point you helped to make.
At this point it is quite simple.
You admitted that "Christ is God's chief Messenger." (archaggelos)
The Bible calls Michael "the chief messenger". (archaggelos)
Therefore Jesus is Michael, "the chief messenger"! (archaggelos)
Thank you for helping to prove that point!
Cheers!
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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Your 'point' was lost a long time ago when Heb. 1: 5 KJV unambiguously pointed out the error of your claim.
Cheers! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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unambiguously???
It doesn't say Jesus isn't an angel. To the contrary Heb 1 indicates Jesus was an angel, as he was elevated above these "partners", the angels (aggelos), because he was given a name better then theirs. Jesus is no ordinary angel but the archangel, "the archaggelos". You admitted Jesus was the "archaggelos", the archangel, in other words "the chief messenger". The following point is quite unambiguous.  No strawman or red herring you brought up deviates from this point.
At this point it is quite simple.
You admitted that "Christ is God's chief Messenger." (archaggelos)
The Bible calls Michael "the chief messenger". (archaggelos)
Therefore Jesus is Michael, "the chief messenger"! (archaggelos)
Thank you for helping to prove that point!
Cheers!
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Is that like touche' or checkmate?.....
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Biblegateway Christian Viewpoints |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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Ok TBax so you can't comprehend Heb. 1: 5 KJV what about -
To which for did he say ever of the messengers: A son of me art thou, I to-day have begotten thee? and again: I will be to him for a Father, and he shall to me for a son?
(Heb. 1: 5) Emphatic Diaglott
For to which of the angels said he ever, *Thou* art my Son: this day have *I* begotten thee? and again, *I* will be to him for father, and *he* shall be to me for son? (Heb. 1: 5) DBY
It was said concerning Christ, but never concerning any of the angels, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son; taken from 2 Sam. vii. 14.
Proving unequivocally that Christ was never a heavenly angel.
There is absolutely a checkmate. TBax is flat out wrong as usual! |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:11 am Post subject: Jesus is no ordinary angel but the archangel says TBax |
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| TBax wrote: | | . . . Jesus is no ordinary angel but the archangel . . . . . . Therefore Jesus is Michael, . . . |
If Jesus is the archangel Michael, then Paul and the Apostles will be sitting in Judgment on Jesus aka Michael not the other way around -
Paul speaking: - Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? . . . . . . 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? (1 Cor. 6:2 - 3) KJV
| TBax wrote: | | . . . Jesus is no ordinary angel but the archangel . . . . . . Therefore Jesus is Michael, . . . |
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Heb. 1:13) KJV
Cheers! |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1970
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| composer wrote: | | There is absolutely a checkmate. TBax is flat out wrong as usual! |
Oh! Why didn't you just say so. We could have saved alot of time.
| composer wrote: | | If Jesus is the archangel Michael, then Paul and the Apostles will be sitting in Judgment on Jesus aka Michael not the other way around - |
Another absolute not indicated by the scripture. For instance, if a human king is to judge all men in his kingdom does that mean the king is not a man??? Paul and the others judge WITH Jesus the king. 
Plus, if angels cannot sin why do they need to be judged??? Thank you for providing that scripture that shows the angels that sinned will be judged. Much appreciated.
| composer wrote: | | If Jesus is the archangel Michael |
What do you mean if??? You helped to provide the proof.
You admitted that "Christ is God's chief Messenger." (archaggelos)
The Bible calls Michael "the chief messenger". (archaggelos)
Therefore Jesus is Michael, "the chief messenger"! (archaggelos)
Thank you for helping to prove that point!
Cheers!
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: J.W's |
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| composer wrote: | | There is absolutely a checkmate. TBax is flat out wrong as usual! |
| TBax wrote: | | Oh! Why didn't you just say so. We could have saved alot of time. :lol: |
1. I just did?
| composer wrote: | | If Jesus is the archangel Michael, then Paul and the Apostles will be sitting in Judgment on Jesus aka Michael not the other way around - |
| TBax wrote: | | Another absolute not indicated by the scripture. For instance, if a human king is to judge all men in his kingdom does that mean the king is not a man??? |
2. The resurrected Christ is not a mere man.
The Saints (God willing?) will be immortalised also after their Judgment.
Your analogy is fallacious as usual.
| TBax wrote: | | Paul and the others judge WITH Jesus the king. :) |
3. Yes and according to you they will be superior to him as a J.W's angel.
| TBax wrote: | | Plus, if angels cannot sin why do they need to be judged??? Thank you for providing that scripture that shows the angels that sinned will be judged. Much appreciated. :D |
4. We are discussing your nonScriptural notion that the J.W jesus is an angel. Of course the Christ Adelphian Jesus isn't an angel and of course Jesus DID NO SINS (1 Pet. 2:22) KJV but he certainly FIRST sacrificed for himself for the Adamic propensity to sin he inherited (Rom. 5:12 cf. 6:23) KJV (Another Topic you have already been corrected on (Heb. 7:27) KJV.
'judge angels' is better rendered as 'have authority over' as a Judge sits over the court.
Therefore your 'J.W's jesus is an angel' still degrades the real non J.W Christ of the Bible to that of being inferior to his Saints.
| composer wrote: | | If Jesus is the archangel Michael |
| TBax wrote: | What do you mean if??? You helped to provide the proof.
You admitted that "Christ is God's chief Messenger." (archaggelos)
The Bible calls Michael "the chief messenger". (archaggelos)
Therefore Jesus is Michael, "the chief messenger"! (archaggelos) |
5. I wish I could claim that qualification for you TBax, you need all the help you can get, but sadly for you that the angel that bore God's very name doesn't make it God (Ex. 23:21) KJV any more than ' a / the ' chief messenger (angelos) means Christ is an angel called Michael
6. In fact 'the chief messenger' would be God's Word, the Holy Spirit. Jesus was the mere conveyor of that Word (Acts 4:31 cf. John 14:10) KJV
7. Of course Heb. 1: 5 & 13 you just dismiss because they also refute your claims, but as we have seen you don't let the facts or the Scriptures stand in the way of your false doctrine.
8. Perhaps the Original Greek might help you? - Because himself the lord with a command, with a voice of a chief messenger, and with a trumpet of God will come down from heaven, and the dead ones in Anointed will be raised first; (1 Thess. 4:16) EMPHATIC Diaglott)
NB: . . . with a voice of a chief messenger . . .
'a' chief messenger denotes 'plurality, i.e. more than one chief messengers and not specifically Michael?
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; . . . (Dan. 10:13) KJV
NB: . . . Michael, ' one ' of the chief princes, . . .
Sounds more plausible that 'The Lord' is accompanied by 'one of the chief angels?'
9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. (Jude 1: 9) KJV
Now according to your theory that the J.W / TBax' jesus = the archangel Michael, IF he were, then how do you explain that 'The Lord' (jesus = your Michael) says " . . . The Lord rebuke thee? . . ." Isn't Jesus already 'The Lord, and Michael is not?' (You have confliction here?)
Jesus should have said (according to your theory) "I rebuke you" but he didn't and that's because you are wrong (consistently) again!
10. Perhaps you could show me the geneology of Christ from the Bible that shows that Jesus descended from an angel?
11. Finally, the problem that still remains with your theory. i.e. that the archangel Michael = the J.W Tbax' jesus, is that you still have this jesus commanded to worship himself? -
. . . And let all the angels of God worship him.
12. Just had another thought - NB: Let ALL the angels of god worship him, and that includes this alleged silly J.W's & TBax' Satan angel and its demon pals (if they were to literally exist)
TBax' always disobedient and trying to thwart the J.W's god's plans has to be obedient and the J.W's & Tbax' satan and pals now has to worship the J.W's angel Michael = jesus?
Wow! TBax's satan isn't that bad after all, in fact he's very obedient to the J.W's god and Michael apparently?
13. Jesus has a more excellent name than Michael -
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb. 1: 4) KJV
14. Is the J.W jesus insulted when you call him Michael because Jesus is a more excellent name?
15. It says that Jesus received a 'more excellent name' than 'they'. That separates Jesus from the angels.
You are implying it should have said " Jesus received a 'more excellent name' than 'the other angels'. But it doesn't?
16. Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Pet. 3:22) KJV
So the J.W TBax' jesus is again in subjection to his other self the J.W TBax' angel Michael = jesus?
17. Please show me in the Bible where Michael 'took on a new name Jesus?'
18. Please show me from the Bible OT where your J.W' Michael is shown as mediator or dying for the sins of others?
19. When did any Apostle refer to Christ as an angel let alone specifically the 'archangel Michael?'
20. Remember of course the 100% self contradicting and incompetent J.W's & TBax ' god ' that said Michael ISN'T Jesus but Michael IS the Pope Oops! Michael IS the J.W's jesus.
Thank you. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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TBax: | Quote: | | I don't agree that Melchizedek was an angel. Melchizedek was the king of Salem and “priest of the Most High God,” Jehovah. There is "no recorded end" to his being a priest. |
I'd love to look at the whole Melchizedek thing a little closer. He had no beginning, no end, no (earthly) mother or father. He gave tithe to Abraham (though Abraham is less than he is)..... No lineage...no earthly relatives... no beginning.
Sounds like an angel. Could be our Lord Jesus. Could be that Melchizedek has more to do with foreshadowing the new covenant brought about by Jesus than we know.
Talk about your man of mystery!
Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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