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| Should people be allowed to use lethal force to prevent theft? |
| Yes. |
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14% |
[ 1 ] |
| No. |
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71% |
[ 5 ] |
| Only in certain cases, such as.... |
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14% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Author |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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 Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Luke makes it quite clear that the possession of a sword at the time of Jesus' arrest was to fulfill prophecy:
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I disagree. The context leaves quite a different tenor. Jesus reminds the apostles how he sent them out the first time (Luke 10) without the supplies for a lengthy journey. Jesus is in this passage telling them to prepare with supplies for an intinerant mission. Robbers on the road were common and were even the subject of one of Christ's parables. Jesus was preparing them for the commission he would give them after His Resurrection to "go into all the world" by having the necessary things ready for a dangerous journey.
There is also an interesting dichatomy. Jesus says that "he who lacks a sword" to sell his garment to buy one. Note here that having a sword was of greater importance than having a spare tunic. It should also be noted that "he who lacks a sword" means everyone. So why did Jesus then say that two swords were enough? Because it was not yet necessary for any more than they already had; as if Jesus was saying, "That is sufficient for now."
It's easy as an armchair general living in relative comfort and safety to deride the need to arm oneself. I would suggest putting yourself in their sandles in the times they lived in. Jesus wasn't telling them to canvass the neighborhood at Pleasant Hill Drive like Mormon missionaries. He was preparing them for the dangers that he knew surely awaited them.
Even so, I can see that this passage bothers you. I'm sure you'd rather this wasn't recorded so as not to disturb the serenity of your distaste for citizens carrying guns. It's really inconvenient when the Bible shatters our misguided political leanings, isn't it?
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| stmike wrote: | | RevJP, of course I'm surprised. After repeatedly stating your position opposing people taking the law into their own hands, you propose it's ok to shoot someone who's stealing your property. Yes, your juxtaposition puzzled me. |
I see. Obviously you misunderstood the proposition of an opposing argument as my 'position'. I was simply debating the points you had made.
If it were 'my' position I would have prefaced everything with "this is my opinion, no matter how right or wrong it is..."
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| smdt wrote: | | Even so, I can see that this passage bothers you. I'm sure you'd rather this wasn't recorded so as not to disturb the serenity of your distaste for citizens carrying guns. It's really inconvenient when the Bible shatters our misguided political leanings, isn't it? |
no...it really doesn't hurt his view at all..  |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I see. Obviously you misunderstood the proposition of an opposing argument as my 'position'. I was simply debating the points you had made.
If it were 'my' position I would have prefaced everything with "this is my opinion, no matter how right or wrong it is..."
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So, as a moderator, you haven't yet figured out that when you post something, everyone assumes it's your opinion? Do the other moderators have to abide by this stricture or just you? Am I not to take anything you say seriously unless you first say "this is my opinion, no matter how right or wrong it is....?" Why not just shorten it and say "Simon says.." We all played that game as children, so it might be more suitable.
I have to say, that was a sophomoric way to try to explain away this seeming contradiction.
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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TSS, you're such an instigator!
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So, as a moderator, you haven't yet figured out that when you post something, everyone assumes it's your opinion? |
That you make assumptions is your burden to bear, not mine. That you would rather assume things and make arguments based on those assumptions rather than seek the truth first speaks rather poorly of you.
| Quote: | | Do the other moderators have to abide by this stricture or just you? |
What restriction are you referring to exactly? Is there a board rule that tells us we must accept that board member assume that which they have no right to assume, and that we are to base our commentary on those faulty assumptions whatever they are? 
| Quote: | | Am I not to take anything you say seriously unless you first say "this is my opinion, no matter how right or wrong it is....?" |
What is not to take seriously? The counters I've posted to your assertions are clearly more logical, correct, and intelligent than your remarks, regardless if I personally hold those views or not.
| Quote: | | I have to say, that was a sophomoric way to try to explain away this seeming contradiction. |
I've actually tried to 'explain away' nothing, and there is no apparent contradiction. The only thing that seems to contradict is your assumptions and reality.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Plotinus
Growing Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 894
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: | | Even so, I can see that this passage bothers you. |
Such wisdom in one so young! You see so deeply into my heart.  Thank you for this insight.
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I'm sure you'd rather this wasn't recorded so as not to disturb the serenity of your distaste for citizens carrying guns.
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My dear friend, since I do not agree with your interpretation I cannot see why I should wish this passage removed from the bible. I find the extended passages deeply moving and profoundly important. I value every word.
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It's really inconvenient when the Bible shatters our misguided political leanings, isn't it? |
That's certainly true. Have you explored the implications of your own remark?
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | My dear friend, since I do not agree with your interpretation I cannot see why I should wish this passage removed from the bible. I find the extended passages deeply moving and profoundly important. I value every word.
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You value what it says after twisting it. I don't have to twist the Scripture to support the right of self defense, it already does. You have to twist it to deny such a right.
Canadian? This explains much. Americans just can't seem to adopt that passive sheep mentality that has you giving up your guns to the government and being held hostage to the government's ability to protect you from harm. Not having a gun is a personal matter of conscience. Reading Scripture to impose that view on everyone is perversion.
Don't worry, I'll never ever visit Canada.
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Such wisdom in one so young! You see so deeply into my heart. Thank you for this insight.
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I love it how you older folks think age is a proper substitute for intellectual parry and building an unassailable argument.
| Quote: | That you make assumptions is your burden to bear, not mine. That you would rather assume things and make arguments based on those assumptions rather than seek the truth first speaks rather poorly of you.
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Semantics. Nobody yolks themselves with the need to preface their statements with "this is my opinion" in order to be understood as promoting their opinion. Just you. This is your own weird eccentricity. The rest of us are acting perfectly sane.
| Quote: | What is not to take seriously? The counters I've posted to your assertions are clearly more logical, correct, and intelligent than your remarks, regardless if I personally hold those views or not.
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Why? Because you say so?
| Quote: | | I've actually tried to 'explain away' nothing, and there is no apparent contradiction. The only thing that seems to contradict is your assumptions and reality. |
I'm assuming that you ran out of arguments and facts, so you're resorting to a verbal spar.
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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Plotinus
Growing Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 894
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: | Canadian? This explains much. Americans just can't seem to adopt that passive sheep mentality that has you giving up your guns to the government and being held hostage to the government's ability to protect you from harm. Not having a gun is a personal matter of conscience. Reading Scripture to impose that view on everyone is perversion.
Don't worry, I'll never ever visit Canada. |
I am sorry to hear that you will never visit Canada. I am sure that if you did we would try to make your visit an enjoyable experience. You would have a chance to march in Toronto's gay pride parade, and smoke some pot on Yonge Street. Perhaps attend a labor union rally with us. Every Friday we gather around the great bronze statues of Tommy Douglas that tower over our dismal smoke stack invested cities to lay flowers and bow to the Great Leader and Father of the people. I'm sure you would come out of it feeling refreshed and invigorated by our hospitality.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm assuming that you ran out of arguments and facts, so you're resorting to a verbal spar. |
Payment in kind.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Plotinus wrote:
| Quote: | I am sorry to hear that you will never visit Canada. I am sure that if you did we would try to make your visit an enjoyable experience. You would have a chance to march in Toronto's gay pride parade, and smoke some pot on Yonge Street. Perhaps attend a labor union rally with us. Every Friday we gather around the great bronze statues of Tommy Douglas that tower over our dismal smoke stack invested cities to lay flowers and bow to the Great Leader and Father of the people. I'm sure you would come out of it feeling refreshed and invigorated by our hospitality.
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That was so funny! I belittle your country and in return you respond with grace and good humor. Thank you for that....you've made my day!
You rock!
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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Plotinus
Growing Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 894
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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You also rock my friend SMDT.
All grace and humor that you and I possess are gifts from God to whom we owe everything.
Besides, we Canadians can afford to be gracious: LINK
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Canada is in 4th place? I kinda expected more from y'all.
The U.N. an authority on anything except corruption, fecklessness, and parasitical existance?
I have my own standards for deciding the most desireable place to live, and it places the U.S. right at the top. I'm sure you feel the same way about Canada. I think the U.N. standards rank countries favoring socialism, lack of a death penalty, and an utter lack of defensive capabilities.....making it prime fodder for a world government....the U.N. of course coveting this role. I think the U.N. should be kicked out of the U.S., it's building sold to the highest bidder, and the proceeds used to send all those dignitaries, despots, and barons back to their crappy countries.
What do all those countries that outrank the U.S. have in common? None of them have an open border to Mexico.
_________________
What a stunning rhetorical riposte, sir! I say, you've cut me to the quick! The incisive thrust of your logical cutlass has struck me to the bone! Alas, I fear the wound is fatal! O, untimely death! |
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