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Argenta
Labrador
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 322
Location: UK
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 Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Hi Plotinus and TSS
You make two very good points about my world, thank you:
1. Risk of over-population;
2. Anguish for all when anyone dies.
One is, I think, easy to rebut the other may require modification of my godly laws. Time is too short to reconsider just now, but I will be back soon with a response to both of your great points.
Love
Argenta |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Argenta wrote: | Hi Plotinus and TSS
You make two very good points about my world, thank you:
1. Risk of over-population;
2. Anguish for all when anyone dies.
One is, I think, easy to rebut the other may require modification of my godly laws. Time is too short to reconsider just now, but I will be back soon with a response to both of your great points.
Love
Argenta |
Suggested modification, Argenta:
Just one tweak or program modificaton:
From Love for just some,
to Love for all.
Love for all means and automatically leads to
sadness at the time of death for any who die,
and
to gladness at the time of life for any who are alive.
Hate for any means just the reverse in emotions and in timing:
sadness for all who live,
and
gladness for all who die.
from the aisle of view,
atoz |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| the teacher says...those that have died...are better off then those yet to be born... |
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Argenta
Labrador
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 322
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: | Suggested modification, Argenta:
Just one tweak or program modificaton:
From Love for just some,
to Love for all.
Love for all means and automatically leads to
sadness at the time of death for any who die,
and
to gladness at the time of life for any who are alive.
Hate for any means just the reverse in emotions and in timing:
sadness for all who live,
and
gladness for all who die.
from the aisle of view,
atoz |
My dichotomous friend atoz,
As usual. you persist with your obsession for the false dichotomy. It is not true that there are only two possible states; unconditional love and unconditional hate. There is, in reality, a middle ground of indifference and an infinite number of graduations from love to hate via indifference. So the world of humans is enormously more complicated than you aver.
How would your world-view change if you were to recognise the existence of these intermediate states?
Love
Argenta |
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Argenta
Labrador
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 322
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | the teacher says...those that have died...are better off then those yet to be born... |
I suppose this could be true as those who have died certainly have lived, at least briefly, whilst those who are yet to be born may never be born.
But, of course, that interpretation, assumes that it is better to have lived than never to have been born and I suspect some people may disagree with that.
Where does that leave your teacher's wisdom, I wonder? Or did you understand this aphorism to mean something quite different?
Love
Argenta |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| quite different... |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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eccl.4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
2 Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
3 Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun. |
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Argenta
Labrador
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 322
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | eccl.4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
2 Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
3 Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun. |
How dreadful! What a depressing philosophy. If I understand this correctly, the author is saying the world is full of oppression which the living have to suffer and the unborn will have to suffer. Therefore the dead are best off because they do not have to suffer it any more.
Quite ghastly.
Firstly, the author's premise is wrong. Many people do not feel they have to endure a life of unremitting oppression, therefore the whole argument fails. Secondly, if his/her first premise were true, the positive thing would be to argue that we should change the world rather than recommend death.
I do hope this is not from a teacher you take seriously. Such advice could seriously damage your mental health.
Love
Argenta |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Or even help yours... imagine that.  |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | the teacher says...those that have died...are better off then those yet to be born... |
Good one, tss!
That's Eccles 7:1-4 and 8 & Luke 23:28-29!
So the teacher means:
Sadness mixed with gladness for the ones who are better off dead,
and
gladness mixed with sadness for the ones who'll be worse off alive and to be born!
From the aisle of View,
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Argenta wrote: |
My dichotomous friend atoz,
As usual. you persist with your obsession for the false dichotomy. It is not true that there are only two possible states; unconditional love and unconditional hate. There is, in reality, a middle ground of indifference and an infinite number of graduations from love to hate via indifference. So the world of humans is enormously more complicated than you aver.
How would your world-view change if you were to recognise the existence of these intermediate states?
Love
Argenta |
My Ms. In-between lukewarm blowing Hot one moment- blowing cold the next Friend Argenta!smile
That sweet-tasting cool-aid of the Love-Hate poisonous mixed affair is the heaven that leads to the hell --- you despise!
Love for all
and
Hate for none except for hating to hate any
is the Dream Team
that rules separate kingdoms, not ever to meet!
Then that Unitary Unified Undichotomized ONE Love loves all dual opposites
and
loves the other in-between infinite dichotomous intermediate dualities like this:
hot, lukewarm and cold.
beginning, end of beginning, middle, beginning of end, end.
good, mediocre bad.
just, med-just, med-unjust, unjust.
alive, half-alive, half-dead, dead.
joy, tears of joy, joy in sadness, sad.
old, older middle-age, younger middle age, young.
adult, younger adult, teen, older child, child.
poor, lower middle class, upper middle class, rich,
top, middle, bottom.
light, twilight, night!
black, light-black, dark white, white!
wrong, half-wrong, half-right, right!
early, midmorning, noon, late afternoon, late.
inferior, equal, superior.
whole, partial, part.
right, straight, left.
the truth, half-truth, half-lie and lie,
stupid, half-wise, half stupid, wise.
full, half-full, half-empty, empty!
more, more than less, less than more, less!
uh, mid-uh, non-uh!!!!smile
see?
getting the pattern?smile
Now we talking!smile
More later.
Or, a word to the wise is enuff!smile
In the meantime, please listen to the words of "Don't mess With Mr. Inbetween!"smile
From the aisle of view
to the outside right,
to the inside-right,
to the centre-forward,
to the inside-left
and outside-left,
if you undichotomizingly love soccer!lsmile
atoz
Bonus:
Sonnet 129:
The expense of spirit in a waste of shame
Is lust in action; and till action, lust
Is perjured, murderous, bloody, full of blame,
Savage, extreme, rude, cruel, not to trust,
Enjoy'd [& loved]no sooner but despised straight,
Past reason hunted, and no sooner had
Past reason hated, as a swallow'd bait
On purpose laid to make the taker mad;
Mad in pursuit and in possession so;
Had, having, and in quest to have, extreme;
A bliss in proof, and proved, a very woe;
Before, a joy proposed; behind, a dream.
All this the world well knows; yet none knows well
To shun the heaven that leads men to this hell.
Last edited by atoz on Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:27 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Argenta
Labrador
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 322
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | argenta wrote: | | I would have no problem with a god who did that. However, I would make men less inclined to harm each other and I would not allow natural disasters that create sorrow on a massive scale, are indiscrimiate and are not a consequence of men's free will. The net result of my design would be enormously less suffering than exists in our world but the full range of emotions from joy to sorrow would remain. |
actaully argenta...with the current state like it is...if you did these things...they could cause suffering beyond any we haveseem so far...
for you as god to do this and pull it off...you wouldneed to make the human body incapable of reroduction after say one or at the most two children, AND make more farm land to feed the booming population you have caused to reek havoc on the planet nd enviroment, as well as more fresh drinkable water...
my the list goes on......  |
Thank you for this excellent point TSS. However, after some reflection I don't agree that I would have to take the draconian step of limiting fertility nor would I have to limit lifespan to less than the 120 or so years suggested by many scientists as the upper limit for humans.
It's true that we are much less likely to have wars than we have seen with the Abramic god's design, we would have no natural disasters and no deaths through contagious diseases. Undoubtedly, that would tend to increase population but would it boom?
Let's remember that the fastest growing populations are on the excessively religious/superstitious continents of Africa, South America and India. The more secular continent of Europe has no such problem. Indeed were it not for massive imigration, Europe would have a constant population, with several countries actually declining because of low fertility. Even Roman Catholic Italy is currently in negative population growth! (Which I suggest means that it is no longer as Catholic as we might suppose.) Furthermore, in the past 60 years there have been no European wars, natural disasters, epidemics or famines that have made any significant impact on population growth.
So my conclusion is that, given adequate education, well-being and absence of superstition (that prohibits contraception in some parts of the world), populations can and do reach a natural limit and stabilise.
Consequently, I think my world would enjoy the benefits I have given it without the downside of overpopulation.
Love
Argenta |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| yes argenta...china is a great example of a society that is non religious...stablizing....their population... |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: |
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... | HeKkLeR wrote: | | Or even help yours... imagine that. |
 ... |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Argenta"] | theseldomscene wrote: | eccl.4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.
2 Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive.
3 Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun. |
| argenta wrote: | | How dreadful! |
perhaps... 
| Quote: | | What a depressing philosophy. |
then i suggest you look around the world and see how true of a philosophy it is...
| Quote: | | If I understand this correctly, the author is saying the world is full of oppression which the living have to suffer and the unborn will have to suffer. Therefore the dead are best off because they do not have to suffer it any more. |
and exactly which part of that is untrue?...
i think that was his point...
| Quote: | | Firstly, the author's premise is wrong. Many people do not feel they have to endure a life of unremitting oppression, therefore the whole argument fails. |
here is where your point starts to break down...for the teacher plainly said many do not suffer oppression...here...it is in this part...maybe in the ghastliness of it you did not read that far..
| Quote: | | and on the side of their oppressors there was power |
so he was not so wrong...just your understanding of it...
| Quote: | | Secondly, if his/her first premise were true, the positive thing would be to argue that we should change the world rather than recommend death. |
yes...he goes on to teach something similiar to that...
| Quote: | | I do hope this is not from a teacher you take seriously. |
oh i take him very seriously...
| Quote: | | Such advice could seriously damage your mental health. |
perhaps... ... |
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