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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | I hope it's not catching  |
Sorry to report this sad news, Mojo:
From all medical and historical records,
Love's a very catching & contagious sickness, inanity & insanity,
and
there is no cure:
not even death can cure it,
nor is there enough water nor money nor treasure for Love to be bought or bribed off!smile
SOS
2:
5Stay[Cure] me with flagons,
comfort me with apples:
for I am sick of love."
8:
6Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm:
for love is strong as death;
jealousy is cruel as the grave:
the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
7Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it:
if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.
"Love is merely a madness;
and, I tell you, deserves as well a dark house and a whip as madmen do;
and the reason why they are not so punish'd and [not]cured
is that
the lunacy is so ordinary
that the whippers are in love too."
As You Like It
[III, 2]
Rosalind
1476
In the Godly Love whose sickness is health,
atoz |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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the madness of love
The madness of love
Is a rich fief;
Anyone who recognized this
Would not ask Love for anything else:
It can unite Opposites
And reverse the paradox.
I am declaring the truth about this:
The madness of love makes bitter what was sweet,
It makes the stranger a kinsman,
And it makes the smallest the most proud.
To souls who have not reached such love,
I give this good counsel:
If they cannot do more,
Let them beg Love for amnesty,
And serve with faith,
According to the counsel of noble Love,
And think: 'It can happen,
Love's power is so great!'
Only after his death
Is a man beyond cure.
- Hadewijch of Antwerp |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Seldom,
The wrong message is being derived from the examples of Cain and the adultress woman. Because God spared (having to repeat myself is annoying) these two does not mean that they were not deserving of death, nor does it abdicate the right and duty of society to visit the penalty prescribed by God upon those who commit crimes worthy of it.
You try to make the case that if there is any possiblity that an innocent man is executed then the death penalty is immoral. This is unbiblical, and you are still dodging the fact that it is God you are charging with wrong doing. Society is only carrying out His edict.
You try to make the case that with the arrival of Jesus, somehow the death penalty no longer applies; equating adherence to the death penalty command to the commandment about eating pork, but God took the lives of Annanias and Saphira, so YOU CAN'T MAKE THE CASE THAT THERE'S BEEN ANY CHANGE IN THE LAW!
There have been many changes in the law concerning religious observance, but God's moral laws are eternal and have not been negated by Christ's Advent. Jesus himself said he came not to change the law, but you propose that he did. Is the law against stealing no longer valid? Do you woo another man's wife? Do you kill people? Or is adherence to these silly commandments chalked up with not eating pork?
My logic is irrefutable and my argument insurmountable. God said that a man who murders is worthy of death. If a man is worthy of death, then it's never ever wrong for society to bring that sentence to fulfillment. There is absolutely nothing you can say to refute this, but I'll bet you'll try.
Nobody is telling you that if you sit on a jury that you have no choice but to vote for death. You won't ever be asked to participate in a lethal injection at San Quentin. You have to live your life according to conscience. But to say that society is immoral for carrying out the task assigned to it by the Almighty is to overstep in a bad way, because you bring accusation against both society and God alike.
And God has charged society with the solemn duty to visit justice, even death, upon the wicked:
| Quote: | Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.
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Does not bear the sword in vain. I hope you noted that this is in the New Testament and is a New Covenant mandate. I've come to learn in debates that many opinions are different, but some opinions are just plain wrong.
In the Sacred Heart of Christ |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | the madness of love
The madness of love
Is a rich fief;
Anyone who recognized this
Would not ask Love for anything else:
It can unite Opposites
And reverse the paradox.
I am declaring the truth about this:
The madness of love makes bitter what was sweet,
It makes the stranger a kinsman,
And it makes the smallest the most proud.
2 cor 12:9-10.
To souls who have not reached such love,
I give this good counsel:
If they cannot do more,
Let them beg Love for amnesty,
And serve with faith,
According to the counsel of noble Love,
And think: 'It can happen,
Love's power is so great!'
Only after his death
Is a man beyond cure.
- Hadewijch of Antwerp |
Awefull, TSS!---'full' being more than 'some!'smile
Thanx for that quote too!
One good turn deserves another:
Lovers and madmen have such seething brains,
Such shaping fantasies, that apprehend
More than cool reason ever comprehends.
The lunatic, the lover and the poet
Are of imagination all compact:
One sees more devils than vast hell can hold,
That is, the madman:
the lover, all as frantic,
Sees Helen's beauty in a brow of Egypt:
The poet's eye, in fine frenzy rolling,
Doth glance from heaven to earth, from earth to heaven;
And as imagination bodies forth
The forms of things unknown, the poet's pen
Turns them to shapes and gives to airy nothing
A local habitation and a name.
Such tricks hath strong imagination,
That if it would but apprehend some joy,
It comprehends some bringer of that joy;
Or in the night, imagining some fear,
How easy is a bush supposed a bear!"
Midsummer Night's Dream [V, 1]
Madly in Love yet sane, smile
atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: | Seldom,
The wrong message is being derived from the examples of Cain and the adultress woman. Because God spared (having to repeat myself is annoying) these two does not mean that they were not deserving of death, nor does it abdicate the right and duty of society to visit the penalty prescribed by God upon those who commit crimes worthy of it.
.....
In the Sacred Heart of Christ |
Hi smdt!
The right message & point is that THE blanket prescription is LOVE, not either the death penalty nor its abolishment.
Then in that blanket Love,
there is a time in Love to spare and NOT kill
that adulteress,
and those liars Joseph & Rahab,
and that thief David,
and those murderers Moses & Paul,
and
there is a time in Love to kill liars&thieves such as A & S,
but
there is NEVER EVER a time nor ever any time when Love is not applied as the blanket-rule.
By the way, I see that you are annoyed at yourself!smile
Please apply that blanket prescription of Love!
It does apply in ALL cases and in EVERY case!smile
Glad you loved that moronic joke!smile
with the Blanket of Love that is prescribed for and covers all situations and states, Prov 10:12
atoz |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Atoz,
| Quote: | there is NEVER EVER a time nor ever any time when Love is not applied as the blanket-rule.
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And I have made my point already that love is inseparable from justice, and that justice is an act of love.
I wrote a post to you on this subject on the Sunday church attendees, stand up and be heard! thread, 2nd page, but I never got a response, so I assume you haven't seen it yet. It goes further into something that I want to understand about you.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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thanks atoz that was great...
smdt...
i can't help you...your points made have been counter by incontext scripture and yet you can only rail about repeating yourself...you latch on to a law, seperating it, (which is not possible) choosing what parts to keep and reject in some seemingly blood lust for death...it is disturbing mikie... and it sounds to me like you are in rebellion against the teachings of JESUS...
if repeating yourself is such a chore...then i advise you not to do so... 
for it is no chore for me to help you see that you seem annoyed with yourself... 
and yes...all JESUS did and does is an example of what we should do...
if you cannot accept incontext scripture, because you prefer man made ideas ...
then all i can say, is you are in my prayers... |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: |
Atoz,
| Quote: | there is NEVER EVER a time nor ever any time when Love is not applied as the blanket-rule.
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And I have made my point already that love is inseparable from justice, and that justice is an act of love.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary |
Go further with your point, smdt:
Love carries its own Justice:
Because God loves the just and the unjust,
and loves justice and mercy, MT 5:43-48,
the first Justice, before DOING anything whatsoever, is the Justice of Love;
and
the first Injustice is the Injustice of Hate[IOH] for the unjust.
Because the JOL loves both justice and mercy,
and mercy has its own opposite mercilessness,
and justice has its wown opposite, injustice,
mercy and justice are inseparable, interdefinable, integrated, intrinsic of each other,
and
the JOL is always carrying both justice and mercy,
so that
when just in the JOL, God is auto merciful,
and
when merciful in the JOL, he is auto-just.
So it is this Justice of Love: JOL,
that
is then
applied at all times
to the justice you refer to,
and to mercy,
and
in both the cases of the just and the unjust:
When JOL is applied to justice for the just,
we have double justice and mercy.
When JOL is applied to justice for the unjust,
we still have the JOL and mercy!
So Love is both the act of justice and the act of mercy.
there is more---but I;'ll stop there for now.
Bonuses:
Ps 103:
10He hath not dealt with us after our sins;
[so he is unjust: he did not give us our just desserts!]
nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.[again, favoritism! injustice!smile]
11For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy[Love] toward them that fear him.
12As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
13Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him.
Here is WS on it:
"The quality of mercy [really Love] is not strain'd,
It[Love] droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice."
Merchant of Venice [IV, 1]
in Love,
atoz
| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: |
I wrote a post to you on this subject on the Sunday church attendees, stand up and be heard! thread, 2nd page, but I never got a response, so I assume you haven't seen it yet. It goes further into something that I want to understand about you.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary |
Thanx
Last edited by atoz on Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:15 am; edited 4 times in total |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:30 am Post subject: |
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Thanx, TSS!
with Love,
atoz |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | smdt...
i can't help you...your points made have been counter by incontext scripture and yet you can only rail about repeating yourself...you latch on to a law, seperating it, (which is not possible) choosing what parts to keep and reject in some seemingly blood lust for death...it is disturbing mikie... and it sounds to me like you are in rebellion against the teachings of JESUS...
if repeating yourself is such a chore...then i advise you not to do so...
for it is no chore for me to help you see that you seem annoyed with yourself...
and yes...all JESUS did and does is an example of what we should do...
if you cannot accept incontext scripture, because you prefer man made ideas ...
then all i can say, is you are in my prayers... |
As I predicted, you couldn't refute any point I made and you had to resort to accusing me of blood lust, and made a mawkish show of keeping me in your prayers as if you were in a position to condescend. Debating is an art much like chess. One erects and defends an argument while seeking to dismantle the opponant's. Semantics (like your last post) count for nothing, only the ability to use logic and proof to advance your ideas and defeat opposing ideas. In a scored debate, where points are assiged, you would have lost this one. You're last post would be viewed as conceding defeat while trying to save face.
| Quote: | and yes...all JESUS did and does is an example of what we should do...
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And I demonstrated that capital punishment was taught and enforced in the New Testament as well as the old, and challenged you to demonstrate that Jesus was abolishing the death penalty instead of making a singular exception. You failed to do this, and have retreated to the repetition of defeated arguments.
My bet is, you've never actually taken a class for this kind of thing. Why do I think it's important? Because when we are defending Christianity to the world, they apply the same standard. And when you resort to the "just because" argument, then you've lost, and Christianity can be dismissed as indefensible. Nobody is impressed by you losing an argument while pretending you still have the upper hand, like Saddam Hussein declaring victory after he was decisively defeated in the Gulf War. There are many good books out there on Christian apologetics, I suggest you read one.
In the Sacred Heart of Christ |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| saintmichaeldefendthem wrote: |
...
I wrote a post to you on this subject on the Sunday church attendees, stand up and be heard! thread, 2nd page, but I never got a response, so I assume you haven't seen it yet. It goes further into something that I want to understand about you.
In the Immaculate Heart of Mary |
Where is this found exactly, smdt?
Just found it! 11.7.07
love & r,
atoz
Last edited by atoz on Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As I predicted, you couldn't refute any point I made and you had to resort to accusing me of blood lust, and made a mawkish show of keeping me in your prayers as if you were in a position to condescend. Debating is an art much like chess. One erects and defends an argument while seeking to dismantle the opponant's. Semantics (like your last post) count for nothing, only the ability to use logic and proof to advance your ideas and defeat opposing ideas. In a scored debate, where points are assiged, you would have lost this one. |
whatever lies you feel the need to tell yourself smdt...
it is a crying shame how you as a representive of the catholic church...could not be more honest than that..
your arguements were nothing more than railing against the word of GOD...a sick sad display of wickedness...
pitiful...and allyour points were countered and defeated, as has happened to you in all most every talk you have engaged in here...
and before you rail about the truth being spoken toyou...i suggest you rereads this thread and see your own lies, dodgings and refusal of the truth...and if one can't speak truthfully to you with out you diving into a fit of rage as you are displaying, simply because your points were shown silly...then please go away and grow up then come back...and try again...
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Plotinus
Growing Lion
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 894
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: | since what is ONLY wrong with any argument is the premise of hatred in the argument.
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Yes atoz, you are right. Truth is Beauty, said Keats, admiring a grecian urn. And Beauty will not abide Hatred.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Plotinus wrote: | | atoz wrote: | since what is ONLY wrong with any argument is the premise of hatred in the argument.
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Yes atoz, you are right. Truth is Beauty, said Keats, admiring a grecian urn. And Beauty will not abide Hatred. |
And Plo,
you are right for saying I am right,
which means that
you were right and had to be right before U told me I was right!!smile
Beauty will not abide Hatred
because
JK's Truth is really the Truth of Love,
and
his Beauty is really the Beauty of Love.
In the Love that is both beautifully true & truly beautiful,
atoz |
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