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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: What if it is GOD's will? |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | i think it is lovely how you guys feel...
it will be a cold day in a devil's hell before i place my hand over my heart and pledge myself to any rag... |
What if it is God's will?
IS NOT PLACING YOU HAND OVER YOUR HEART AND PLEDGING TO THE FLAG OF THE USA, A FORM OF SHOWING HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE? It is honoring those who established this "Land of the Free", a Freedom that gives us the right to Worship as we Choose. And to those who fell defending our Freedom, "Honor is Due", and I know no greater way to show the respect and honor due than by standing with your hand over you heart as the Color Guard comes by.
Matthew 22:17-22 (KJV)
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.
Romans 13:7-8 (KJV)
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:1-6 (KJV)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:38 am Post subject: Re: What if it is GOD's will? |
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| VCO wrote: | | color=darkblue]What if it is God's will? |
it is not HIS will for HIS people to pledge themselves to another...so one mustn't need to worry about it..
| Quote: | | IS NOT PLACING YOU HAND OVER YOUR HEART AND PLEDGING TO THE FLAG OF THE USA, A FORM OF SHOWING HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE? |
uhhh...no sir...not at all...where does the bible say placing ones hand over their heart is given honor where it is due...i understand that may be your interpretation of it...but it is clearly talking of honor to a leader that is due...not allegiance...big difference...
like JESUS saying to pay taxes...but that doesn't mean one bows to the god of gold...
| Quote: | | It is honoring those who established this "Land of the Free", a Freedom that gives us the right to Worship as we Choose |
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to worship as we please?...please...those in HIS name worship in SPIRIT and truth no matter what their physical circumstances....
| Quote: | | And to those who fell defending our Freedom, "Honor is Due", and I know no greater way to show the respect and honor due than by standing with your hand over you heart as the Color Guard comes by.[/color] |
i know of no greater ...IDOLATRY!!!... 
| Quote: | Matthew 22:17-22 (KJV)
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way. |
yes...JESUS clearly taught here to pay taxes...to bad it doesn't support crap else you are claiming...
| Quote: | Romans 13:7-8 (KJV)
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. |
yes...more support for paying taxes...and thhat to ANY gov. that is over you...ANY...so this also fails to support anything you have said about the pledge showing honor to whom it is due...
| Quote: | Romans 13:1-6 (KJV)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 [b]For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. [/b |
do you actually have....ANYTHING...to support what you are saying...where in this are we told to say the pledge...or to pledge at all?...we are not...just to honor the worldlu system of government no matter which we are under..EVEN COMMUNISM IF THAT IS THE ONE OVER US.....OR NAZISM...and pay them the taxes as they require and obey their laws up to the point that they disobey GOD's law...
you have shown nothing.... |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: What if it is GOD's will? |
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[quote="theseldomscene"] | VCO wrote: | [[ | Quote: | | color=darkblue]What if it is God's will? |
. . .
| Quote: | | IS NOT PLACING YOU HAND OVER YOUR HEART AND PLEDGING TO THE FLAG OF THE USA, A FORM OF SHOWING HONOR TO WHOM HONOR IS DUE? |
. . .
uhhh...no sir...not at all...where does the bible say placing ones hand over their heart is given honor where it is due...i understand that may be your interpretation of it...but it is clearly talking of honor to a leader that is due...not allegiance...big difference...
. . .
like JESUS saying to pay taxes...but that doesn't mean one bows to the god of gold...
. . .
| Quote: | | And to those who fell defending our Freedom, "Honor is Due", and I know no greater way to show the respect and honor due than by standing with your hand over you heart as the Color Guard comes by. |
. . .
i know of no greater ...IDOLATRY!!!...
. . .
you have shown nothing.... |
I believe you are TOTALLY wrong. I have shown a great deal, you just refuse to accept it.
Matthew 22:21 (KJV)
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
I assume we can agree that when Jesus said "Caesar" here, that it is a symbolism for "the Government". NOW NOTICE Jesus said "things" NOT just "thing", so He is talking about much more than only Taxes. Those things include:
1. Respect and Honor for the leaders of the Country.
2. Paying Taxes without cheating.
3. Submitting to every Ordinance of Man, which would include the Show Proper Respect for the Flag Rules written into the U.S. Code. (1 Pet. 2:13)
4. Honoring those who have Fought and Died for this Country.
5. Service to you fellow Citzens through Volunteerism or Military Service. AND I pray the Draft comes back, we currently have a generation of ungrateful dependants because we eliminated the draft.
6. VOTING, because this USA is a Democracy.
7. Honoring God by respecting this Country as "One Nation Under God", and following through by handing down our Faith in God and Respect for this Nation to our children.
May I ask why you have a such a strong opposition to respecting the Flag? Does that mean you are a Jehovah Witness?
I repeat:
1 Peter 2:13-17 (KJV)
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
"EVERY ORDINANCE OF MAN", certainly would include the U.S. Flag Code:
| U.S. Flag Code Article 171 wrote: |
§171. Conduct during playing
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.
http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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and like i said...when those ordinances break wiht the laws of GOD...they are to be discarded...
and no it does not mean all the extra's you added...it means what it says and thatis nothing like whatyou are writing in sir...
such idolatry is wicked...and NO flag should be pledged to...
i even had a talk with my kids teachers about my children participating in such evil...
the bible is clear...any pledge is other than to GOD, is wrong..."swear thyself not at all"...opps...guess you also missed that...
and nowhere does JESUS say anything about anmy flags...and a leader is no flag and even then we are to honor him...not pledge ourselves to him...sheesh...
please don't add to scripture to fit you idea of patriotism...
for such is wrong...and all because someone corrects and dismisses your misapplied verses, doesn't mean they did not listen to you, but rather shows they did and found the error in what you were saying friend... |
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Ben Chalfant
German Shepherd
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Adding in to scripture you say? Your very close buddy, maybe too close buddy, atoz, does that all the time. You never complain to him about it.
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Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: Any Groups beside the WatchTower Society think like that? |
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Has anyone ran into any Group besides the WatchTower Society that calls Respect for the Flag idoletry?
I am a retired City Letter Carrier, and one time I had a Postmaster that became a Jehovah Witness, and he took the Flag down off of the Postmaster's Office wall. That is the only Postmaster's Office that I have ever seen without a Flag on the wall, or standing in the corner, and I worked in several Post Offices over my 38 year career.
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| i am not a j.w....i just believe what the bible says to me is all...like it is written... |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: A Soldier's Funeral in Texas |
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U.S Army Spc. James M. Kiehl of Comfort, Texas, was killed in action in Iraq on 23 March 2003. THIS SITE shows the Respect his home town gave him as his funeral procession roled by. Texans know how to do it right, anything less for a fallen Soldier is shameful.
http://home.comcast.net/~cytdad/index.html
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| vco wrote: | | anything less for a fallen Soldier is shameful. |
perhaps...i think it is more shame for soldiers to be in iraq to fall.. |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject: Fallen Soldiers paid for the Freedoms we enjoy. |
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| theseldomscene wrote: |
perhaps...i think it is more shame for soldiers to be in iraq to fall.. |
Don't forget:
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to worship as you please.
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to think as you please.
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to write what you please.
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to live as you please, as long as it does not deprive others of their Freedoms.
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for all the Freedoms you enjoy.
AND when you do not like the Freedoms bought for you by the blood of FALLEN SOLDIERS, you even have the Freedom to Leave.
John 15:13 (KJV)
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
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theseldomscene
Banned
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Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Fallen Soldiers paid for the Freedoms we enjoy. |
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[quote="VCO
| Quote: | Don't forget:
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to worship as you please. |
no sir...JESUS paid for my freedom in HIM to worship in SPIRIT and truth...
| Quote: | | FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to think as you please. |
no sir....no one can successfully chain the thought's of the human mind...
| Quote: | | FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to write what you please. |
how so?...
| Quote: | | FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to live as you please, as long as it does not deprive others of their Freedoms. |
how so?....
| Quote: | | FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for all the Freedoms you enjoy. |
not at all....
| Quote: | | AND when you do not like the Freedoms bought for you by the blood of FALLEN SOLDIERS, you even have the Freedom to Leave. |
or the freedom to stay and resist the lies and abuses of the u.s. military...
| Quote: | John 15:13 (KJV)
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. |
yes...JESUS was speaking of HImself, and those that would die for HIM and the church...now where does HE say...
no greater love has any than a man who would kill for their friends?... |
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theseldomscene
Banned
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Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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ps...now also...please show how any of the men in iraq who have died...did so for any of the reason you have just posted....
you can't for they did not...they should not be there and should have refused to go there andparticipate in an war built on misinformation...since they are so free and all....like you are saying... |
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eleven
Lion King
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1396
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Fallen Soldiers paid for the Freedoms we enjoy. |
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| VCO wrote: | | theseldomscene wrote: |
perhaps...i think it is more shame for soldiers to be in iraq to fall.. |
Don't forget:
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to worship as you please.
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to think as you please.
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to write what you please.
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for your Freedom to live as you please, as long as it does not deprive others of their Freedoms.
FALLEN SOLDIERS paid for all the Freedoms you enjoy.
AND when you do not like the Freedoms bought for you by the blood of FALLEN SOLDIERS, you even have the Freedom to Leave.
John 15:13 (KJV)
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. |
VCO, no disrespect intended, but are you sure you understand what freedom is? |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:45 am Post subject: MAYBE GOD HAS CALLED OUR NATIONS TO BATTLE THERE ! |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | ps...now also...please show how any of the men in iraq who have died...did so for any of the reason you have just posted....
you can't for they did not...they should not be there and should have refused to go there andparticipate in an war built on misinformation...since they are so free and all....like you are saying... |
MAYBE GOD HAS CALLED OUR NATIONS TO BATTLE THERE !
Jeremiah 50:8-9 (GW)
8 “Run away from Babylon. Leave the land of the Babylonians. Be like the male goats that lead the flock.
9 I am going to stir up an alliance of strong nations from the north and bring it against Babylon. Those nations will take up positions against Babylon. Babylon will be captured from the north. Its enemy's arrows will be like skilled soldiers who don't come back empty-handed.
WHO called the U.S., British, Canadian, and other troops from the North to battle there? AND it is not over until GOD's judgement against Babylon is fulfilled.
Jeremiah 50:1-3 (GW)
1 This is the message that the Lord spoke about Babylon and the land of the Babylonians through the prophet Jeremiah.
2 “Announce this among the nations, and spread the news. Raise a flag, and announce it. Don't hide anything. Say, ‘Babylon will be captured. Bel will be put to shame. Marduk will be filled with terror. Babylon's statues will be put to shame. Its idols will be filled with terror.'
3 A nation from the north will attack Babylon and destroy its land so that no one will live in it. People and animals will run away.
| NBC wrote: | In an interview with Katie Couric on the Today Show, Michelle's mother spoke of the dilemma. "Of course they want to come home," she said. "But they are also very committed to their job and their comrades who would lay down their lives for one another. This is a conflict, a deep, deep conflict."
The sisters have this message for the soldiers they left behind in Iraq.
"Our thoughts and prayers are with you. Not a minute goes by that we don’t think about you. We are conflicted because we have two families and we can't be with both at the same time."
As family and friends prepare for Specialist Michelle Witmer's funeral, a memorial fund has been set up in her honor. Proceeds will go toward assisting the orphans of Baghdad.
A gesture of compassion, in memory of one of three smiling young women. Three sisters. Three soldiers. One of whom will not be coming home.
Kevin Tibbles is an NBC News Correspondent on assignment in New Berlin, Wisconsin.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4740728/
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| USA TODAY wrote: |
Dying for freedom
Dennis Brady - Exeter, N.H.
USA TODAY's coverage of the soldiers who sacrificed their lives so that others could live is thoughtful and touching, as it helps us honor those who have served us so courageously in Iraq.
In the Bible, John 15:13 says, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." This is in stark contrast to the radical Islamic jihadists who believe there is no greater honor than to kill innocent men, women and children in furthering their ambitions.
Why is it so difficult to stand behind our military and its leaders, and to give them support, when our soldiers are willing to give their lives for the principles of freedom that they believe in? |
| N.Y. Governor George E. Pataki wrote: |
May 25, 2003 “Memorial Day is a time to reflect on the many sacrifices countless men and women have made throughout our nation’s history to preserve our democracy and America’s cherished values,” Governor Pataki said. “From the nearby fields here in Saratoga where colonial soldiers turned the tide in the struggle for independence, to Operation Iraqi Freedom, where our troops helped restore hope and freedom to an oppressed nation, Americans have willingly shed their blood and given their lives for the noble cause of freedom.
“On this Memorial Day, we solemnly add to the honor roll of fallen heroes the names of servicemen and women from New York and across our nation who died to liberate Iraq,” Governor Pataki said. “As we honor with pride and reverence those who have fallen in past wars, we also must keep in our thoughts and prayers our brave men and women now in harm’s way in the war against tyranny and terror. Their patriotism and courage serves as a model for all Americans.” |
| Chaplain (Maj.) David Allen wrote: |
Chaplain (Maj.) David Allen urged those in attendance to "mourn the life of the three special men who willingly laid down their life for our freedom; mourn their life and honor their sacrifice."
"They laid down their lives for friends, family and people who might never even know their names, but we won't let their life go unnoticed," he said.
As the chaplain spoke to the room of grievers, he assured everyone it was perfectly okay to cry.
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123074583
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Etc., etc., etc. You have never been in the Military have you, tss? That being the case, YOU would have absolutely no idea WHY men and women willingly serve in wartime, and willingly lay down there lives. My grandson is in training getting ready for his SECOND Tour of Duty in IRAQ. HE IS A VOLUNTEER, as are most of the men and women in the Military today. You should be ashamed of yourself for insulting them.
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:54 am Post subject: Re: Fallen Soldiers paid for the Freedoms we enjoy. |
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| eleven wrote: | | VCO, no disrespect intended, but are you sure you understand what freedom is? |
FREEDOM isn't Free
http://www.usmemorialday.org/poetry/notfree.htm
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