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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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 Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Islam |
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Hi Composer,
Please find a rephrased post to make it understandable
| composer2005 wrote: | | The Qur'an gives four conflicting accounts of how Muhammed was called to be a prophet: |
Let us be organized in the conversation. Otherwise no one will understand anything. So, if we’re discussing 4 conflicting verses then let us close this point first. Why did you go to another subject to discuss Mohamed's journey to the sky? Why did you go to a third subject which is violence?
This is not the suitable way of discussion. If we do it in this way then we’ll not close any point . shall
we understand that you avoid closing the point then you turn to other ones.
So, I’ll reply on the “how Muhammed was called to be a prophet” and ignore the others.
You started with 4 points
| composer2005 wrote: |
1. In Sura 53:2-18 and 81:19-24, Allah personally appeared.
2. In Sura 16:102 and 26:192-194 he was called by the Holy Spirit.
3. In Sura 15:8, the angels announced his prophetic ministry.
4. The angel Gabriel told him of his ministry and gave him the Qur'an. His first converts were genies whom he allegedly preached to and converted. Sura 46:29-35; 72:1-28. |
When you reply on my post you replied on 3 points only and dropped the 4th . I think you recognized that you’re wrong to include this point in the discussion. Ok fine then we have 3 points only.
I know you’ll not accept my evaluation but this will change nothing (I have the right to discount one point from your creditability)
Let us start from the beginning, I understood when you say “how Muhammed was called to be a prophet” you mean “How Mohamed was assigned ,or chosen to be a profit, or contacted first time ?
But from your reply I understood that you mean “How Mohamed was receiving (Inspire) Allah messages (Quran)?”
Then the question “how Muhammed was called to be a prophet” has 2 meanings:-
-How Mohamed was assigned ,or chosen to be a profit, or contacted first time ?
Or
-How Mohamed was receiving Allah messages (Quran)?
*Regarding the first option “How Mohamed was assigned ,or chosen to be a profit, or contacted first time ?”:
You lost your case because all verses submitted don’t speak about the first contact “called to be a profit” at all.
*Regarding the second option “How Mohamed was receiving Allah messages (Quran)? “:-
You’re totally confused because there is no contradiction at all. These verses describe two ways of Inspiration:
-The first way of Inspiration is via Gabriel channel. All of the following names or descriptions points to one entity Gabriel:-
+Holy Spirit (verse 16:102) your second point
+Spirit of Faith and Truth (verse 26:192-194) your second point
+Angel (verse 15-8) your third point
By the way this verse doesn’t talk about Mohamed specifically it’s about all profits. See how wrong you are
The second way of inspiration is from Allah directly during Mohamed’s trip to the sky. This is direct contact to Allah. it’s one time trip.
*Surah 53-2 your first point
*Surah 81-19 your first point
See no contradiction at all . It’s two ways for inspiration first is the usual one via Gabriel who has many names. The Second way is the direct contact with Allah.
I hope you perceive this info with open minded and not try to argue.
I hope this is more clear and understandable. waiting for your reply
Regards |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Islam |
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Hi Steven,
| Steven3 wrote: | Hi Abdelaleem | Abdelaleem wrote: |
It wouldn’t surprise me that you think Mohamed writes Quran on his own not from Allah. |
Well I didn't assume that, but even when talking of Moses or Paul we must put them in context of the times. Considering that Christianity in Muhammed's time was unChristlike, Warqa himself probably was not a pacifist like Jesus, so I'd be interested to know how the Quran views Jesus' pacifism. |
I disagree with the assumption that the inspiration of Allah depends on the time. We believe about Quran that it’s fine for all times and all places. We’re sure also about all Allah’s inspiration to all profits. We’ve concerns about previous profits books as it has been changed by people . we believe that Mohamed didn’t get affected by anyone any book. It’s inspiration from Allah. For your info, there is nothing in the books about Warqa except for this situation when Khadija consulted him about Gabriel. it means he died after that even before Islam exposed to all people in Mecca
| Steven3 wrote: | | Abdelaleem wrote: | | Again, Mohamed only knows one Christian in Mecca. Warqa he was Mohamed’s wife cosine. She consulted him when Gabriel appeared first time to Mohamed. So, the theory of cloning Quran from OT and NT is not valid for many reasons. |
That is getting into text-critical issues, we can discuss those later. Some of Quran relates to previous books just as some of NT quotes previous books. |
There is no harm that some of the Quran relates to the NT and OT. We believe that it’s all from Allah. It’s all words of Allah. It can all describe Universe creation, Heaven, Adam and Eve, Abraham, David, Solomon, last day,,, |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: Islam |
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Your conclusions are misguided!
It all comes down to 'credibility'
The question is simple and of utmost importance and everything else is in fact redundant and superfluous: -
Why do you Muslems follow the teachings of a killer and woman beater instead of the teachings of Christ the pacifist?
I know you want to avoid this with all the other excuses you can try to muster and falsely accuse me of 'avoiding your other questions' but that is a trick and I won't fall for it.
What you are trying to justify, is your current violent founded religion, that also still promotes those same violent tenets including beating it's women (may be all women) and that kind of Religion is ungodly and evil!
Agape |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| Abdelaleem wrote: | The strange thing is that you closed the conversation about contradiction in Quran but you like to discuss the violence with me although you consider ةy language is not clear.
I understand this as a way to run away from the discussion . to put you in the corner I’ll rephrase the post. |
I shan't be tricked by you Abdelaleem.
The fundamental is, that your current religion is based and founded upon evil and atrocities. Including killings to support it and beating of its women to subdue them (perhaps beating all women if necessary?).
I realise you want to try to avoid this by only wanting to discuss trivia in comparison.
The fundamental question remains unanswered by you: -
Why do you Muslems prefer to follow the evil teachings of this violent based religion when you can follow the Pacifist Jesus Christ?
Everything else you wish to discuss is virtually unimportant in comparison!
In God's Love always. |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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First reply before reading my post
| composer2005 wrote: | Your conclusions are misguided!
It all comes down to 'credibility'
The question is simple and of utmost importance and everything else is in fact redundant and superfluous: -
Why do you Muslems follow the teachings of a killer and woman beater instead of the teachings of Christ the pacifist?
I know you want to avoid this with all the other excuses you can try to muster and falsely accuse me of 'avoiding your other questions' but that is a trick and I won't fall for it.
What you are trying to justify, is your current violent founded religion, that also still promotes those same violent tenets including beating it's women (may be all women) and that kind of Religion is ungodly and evil!
Agape |
Second reply after reading my post
| composer2005 wrote: | | Abdelaleem wrote: | The strange thing is that you closed the conversation about contradiction in Quran but you like to discuss the violence with me although you consider ةy language is not clear.
I understand this as a way to run away from the discussion . to put you in the corner I’ll rephrase the post. |
I shan't be tricked by you Abdelaleem.
The fundamental is, that your current religion is based and founded upon evil and atrocities. Including killings to support it and beating of its women to subdue them (perhaps beating all women if necessary?).
I realise you want to try to avoid this by only wanting to discuss trivia in comparison.
The fundamental question remains unanswered by you: -
Why do you Muslems prefer to follow the evil teachings of this violent based religion when you can follow the Pacifist Jesus Christ?
Everything else you wish to discuss is virtually unimportant in comparison!
In God's Love always. |
You’ve sent 2 replies for the same post.
What does it mean?
You reply with your fixed quotes without reading mine. You’re one way communicator only transmits.
You don’t read replies.
If you read , you read without concentration (I give myself the right to discount another point from your creditability So your creditability now is 8/10)
I expect you will send multiple replies on the same post.
You’re also repeating yourself.
Can you be polite and don’t say killer? I doubt. So,I’ll not discuss rude guys
Do you think you can debate about Islam and violence?
I know your type. You can’t debate. You are not communicating, you’re just transmitter.
You said my language is bad , so how will you understand me when we’re debating ?
Askdf askhfjksa sakfhjksa sadkfhsjk sakfhjks sdkfhskj hf.
Did you understand the previous line? If you understand this line I’ll debate with you.
Allah said in Quran 25:[63] And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!"
ٍSo, I say Peace to you |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:55 pm Post subject: Islam |
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The double post was not my intentional doing.
I posted my initial response and it did not show up and I thought it was lost so I did another and when I sent it, the two came up.
That was out of my control and is obviously a glitch with this Site.
I appreciate fully you want to ignore the most important question and your constant refusal to answer it only confirms you prefer the evil founded and perpetuated woman beating false religion you currently embrace.
You put shame on Allah and you put shame on Christ and put shame on yourself.
You are obviously a violent man who loves the teachings of another violent man.
I prefer the teachings of the pacifist Jesus Christ.
May Allah deal with you and your kind accordingly.
You want Peace and are prepared to kill and beat to enforce it.
Islam makes Peace a dirty and meaningless word. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Islam |
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Hi Abdelaleem  | Abdelaleem wrote: | Hi Steven,
| Steven3 wrote: | Hi Abdelaleem | Abdelaleem wrote: |
It wouldn’t surprise me that you think Mohamed writes Quran on his own not from Allah. |
Well I didn't assume that, but even when talking of Moses or Paul we must put them in context of the times. Considering that Christianity in Muhammed's time was unChristlike, Warqa himself probably was not a pacifist like Jesus, so I'd be interested to know how the Quran views Jesus' pacifism. |
I disagree with the assumption that the inspiration of Allah depends on the time. We believe about Quran that it’s fine for all times and all places. We’re sure also about all Allah’s inspiration to all profits. We’ve concerns about previous profits books as it has been changed by people . we believe that Mohamed didn’t get affected by anyone any book. It’s inspiration from Allah. For your info, there is nothing in the books about Warqa except for this situation when Khadija consulted him about Gabriel. it means he died after that even before Islam exposed to all people in Mecca |
I'd still be intersted to know if the Quran or Hadith address Jesus' pacifism - "turn the other cheek" and so on.
| Quote: | | Steven3 wrote: | | Abdelaleem wrote: | | Again, Mohamed only knows one Christian in Mecca. Warqa he was Mohamed’s wife cosine. She consulted him when Gabriel appeared first time to Mohamed. So, the theory of cloning Quran from OT and NT is not valid for many reasons. |
That is getting into text-critical issues, we can discuss those later. Some of Quran relates to previous books just as some of NT quotes previous books. |
There is no harm that some of the Quran relates to the NT and OT. We believe that it’s all from Allah. It’s all words of Allah. It can all describe Universe creation, Heaven, Adam and Eve, Abraham, David, Solomon, last day,,, |
The OT and NT are the words of Allah. But the Quran also relates some material from pseudo-Gospels, Christian sources outside the NT - for example:
Sura 3:37 is from the apocryphal Pseudo-Gospel of James 5.1 And she [Anna, Mary's mother] made a sanctuary in her [Mary's] bedchamber . . . 8.1 And Mary was in the Temple nurtured like a dove and received food from the hand of an angel . . . .
Sura 3:44 is also from apocryphal Gospel of James 8.3 And the heralds went forth and spread out through all the surrounding country of Judaea; the trumpet of the Lord sounded and all [the widowers] ran to it. [The widowers give their rods to the high priest] 9.1 When he took the rods, and went out (again) [from the Temple] and gave them to them: but there was no sign on them . . . [Joseph got a divine sign of a dove]. And the priest said to Joseph: 'Joseph, to you has fallen the good fortune to receive the virgin of the Lord; take her under your care. (New Testament Apocrypha, pp. 429—430)
Sura 19:23—26 comes from Gospel of Pseudo—Matthew "Then the child Jesus, who was sitting with a happy countenance in his mother's lap, said to the palm: 'Bend down your branches, O tree, and refresh my mother with your fruit.' And immediately at this command [voice] the palm bent down to the feet of the blessed Mary, and they gathered from its fruit and they all refreshed themselves . . . [Addressing the palm, Jesus says:] 'And open beneath your roots a vein of water . . . and let the waters flow' . . . And when they saw the fountain of water, they greatly rejoiced and quenched their thirst . . . (The New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 1, p. 463)
Sura 19:29—31 and 3:46 are based on the Arabic Infancy Gospel. "We have found it recorded in the book of Josephus the Chief Priest, who was in the time of Christ (and men say that he was Caiaphas), that this man said that Jesus spake when He was in the cradle, and said to Mary His Mother, 'Verily I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Word which thou hast borne, according as the angel Gabriel gave thee the good news; and My Father hath sent Me for the salvation of the world.'
Suras 3:49 and 5:110 are from Pseudo-Gospel of Thomas 2.1 [Jesus] made soft clay and modeled twelve sparrows from it . . . 4. Jesus clapped his hands and cried to the sparrows, 'Be gone.' And the sparrows flew off chirping. (The New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 1, p. 444)
Do muslims count these books as Injil? Are they the word of Allah as the Injil?
Anyway, for Christians factors of doubt about the Quran start with
A. quoting OT but differences with the OT story
B. quoting NT but differences with the NT story
C. quoting pseudo-Gospels, which are not NT.
God bless
Steven |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Islam |
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Hi Steven,
| Steven3 wrote: |
I'd still be intersted to know if the Quran or Hadith address Jesus' pacifism - "turn the other cheek" and so on. |
Me too I searched in Quran , I started to search for Hadith. Christ peace upon him was peaceful man.
| Steven3 wrote: |
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | There is no harm that some of the Quran relates to the NT and OT. We believe that it’s all from Allah. It’s all words of Allah. It can all describe Universe creation, Heaven, Adam and Eve, Abraham, David, Solomon, last day,,, |
The OT and NT are the words of Allah. But the Quran also relates some material from pseudo-Gospels, Christian sources outside the NT - for example:
…..
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Dear Steven,
I’ll ask you one question. It’s not a challenging one; it’s to expose the truth.
Before asking the question, please find a list of discovery dates for these Gospels
- Gospel of James , http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancyjames.html , come from the tenth century or later. The earliest known manuscript of the text was found in 1958;
- Gospel of Pseudo—Matthew, http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=652491 , The present fragment was discovered in 1884 in a tomb at Akhmimin Egypt.
- Arabic Infancy Gospel http://www.tonychartrand-burke.com/apocryphicity/category/protoevangelium-of-james/ , the translations of History of Joseph the Carpenter and - Arabic Infancy Gospel are from 1870
Pseudo-Gospel of Thomas, ??, I didn’t find any data about it
The oldest discovered Gospels year is 1870. The Quran the last verse is since 630 AD.
Do you think unlettered one in an isolated city in the desert with the help of who ever can have all these books that has been discovered and translated by researchers?
The facts are:-
• There is unlettered man in an isolated desert
• There are some hidden books which the church has destroyed thousands of it all over the history
• These books have been rediscovered since 150 years
• There is some I call it compliant or synchronization of Quran and these books
• Also, there is some compliancy with the OT and NT canonical books
The answer is :-
"there is one source for all of these books", and we should be conservative about the changes has been made by people.
How do you explain this?
It’s devolution from Allah.
I’m very happy with these comparisons of the apocrypha and Quran. I encourage you to continue in this direction not only with Apocrypha but also OT and NT. I can help .
| Steven3 wrote: |
Do muslims count these books as Injil? Are they the word of Allah as the Injil?
Anyway, for Christians factors of doubt about the Quran start with
A. quoting OT but differences with the OT story
B. quoting NT but differences with the NT story
C. quoting pseudo-Gospels, which are not NT. |
Actually, I don’t know if someone has studied these books and see if it’s the real Injil (Gospel) the words of God to the profit Christ
The problem with the Christian books OT, NT, and pseudo-Gospels, :-
- It’s not referenced till the Christ ( I mean it should be , this Gospel is written by Mathew who learnt it from x, who learnt it from Y, ... who learnt it from Mark the companion of the Christ till the Christ)
- The neutral writing doesn’t reference these books to the Christ’s companions
- Even there are doubts about the real persons who wrote the 4 canonical books , nobody knows which Mark is the owner of the Gospel
- Also, all of these books are story of the Christ
- someone is telling a story, says the Christ said
- it’s the Gospel according to X or Y or Z,,
- You believe that they wrote it with the help of the holy-spirit. But this is not enough to authenticate a book
All of the above specification of the Gospels doesn’t go up to the level of Hadith
But there still a big question, where is the exact words of GOD? Where is the Gospel according to Christ? Where is the book that doesn’t start with “I’m writing this Gospel for ?? reasons)
We look at all these books verse by verse with conservation .
The standard is the right believe (Unitarian) .
If it’s typically coinciding then it’s a real word of Allah.
I encourage you to continue in this direction. I think you’re specialized in this study.
I’m very interested with Unitarian believes, I would expect that the Unitarian believers don’t follow the Trinity's churches in the acceptance or denial of the books.
I’m interested in the comparison between the Christian books and the Quran as far as I know we Muslims didn’t pay much effort in this area.
Regards |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:10 am Post subject: Re: Islam |
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Hi Abdelaleem
It's a pleasure to talk to you. Are you Wahabi? Shia?
I've just come from another forum where an untypical muslim was making all other muslims look bad. I hope some Christians won't also make Christ look bad by postings.
| Abdelaleem wrote: | Before asking the question, please find a list of discovery dates for these Gospels
- Gospel of James.....http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancyjames.html , come from the tenth century or later. The earliest known manuscript of the text was found in 1958; |
Look at the head of that webpage, it says - Estimated Range of Dating: 140-170 C.E.
I think that's too early actually it would be 200. But it's certainly not 1958. Most scholars generally go by the dates established by Wilhelm Schneemelcher for these texts, which we collectively know as NTA (New Testament Apocrypha). Schneemelcher was a critical scholar, not a fundamentalist Christian, and these dates are very firmly before Islam. This is a reliable area of textual study, and it's not possible for all the scholars (Christian, agnostic, Jewish, atheist) to be wrong by a 1000 years.
| Quote: | | Steven3 wrote: | | Do muslims count these books as Injil? Are they the word of Allah as the Injil? |
Actually, I don’t know if someone has studied these books and see if it’s the real Injil (Gospel) the words of God to the prophet Christ |
Okay, thanks for answer. I was curious.
| Quote: | Anyway, for Christians factors of doubt about the Quran start with
A. quoting OT but differences with the OT story
B. quoting NT but differences with the NT story
C. quoting pseudo-Gospels, which are not NT. |
The problem with the Christian books OT, NT, and pseudo-Gospels, :-
- It’s not referenced till the Christ ( I mean it should be , this Gospel is written by Mathew who learnt it from x, who learnt it from Y, ... who learnt it from Mark the companion of the Christ till the Christ)
- The neutral writing doesn’t reference these books to the Christ’s companions
- Even there are doubts about the real persons who wrote the 4 canonical books , nobody knows which Mark is the owner of the Gospel
- Also, all of these books are story of the Christ
- someone is telling a story, says the Christ said
- it’s the Gospel according to X or Y or Z,,
- You believe that they wrote it with the help of the holy-spirit. But this is not enough to authenticate a book[/quote]No it isn't, you're right. So we'd look for other tests - see "The NT Canon" by Metzger for textual tests. But for me the most important would be doctrinal consistency with the OT. By these tests 25 of 27 the NT books do very well, in my view all 27. The NTA (the one with the story about Jesus making a clay bird for example) fail those text-critical tests. But as I said you'd need to read Metzger, or we start a new thread on NT canon.
| Quote: | | But there still a big question, where is the exact words of GOD? Where is the Gospel according to Christ? Where is the book that doesn’t start with “I’m writing this Gospel for ?? reasons) |
For the same reason that God never appeared or spoke to men directly at any point. He only speaks through angels or, Heb1:1, through his Son. Besides the Quran is the same - God to Gabriel, Gabriel to Mohammed, Mohammed to his disciples, his disciples write the book.
| Quote: |
We look at all these books verse by verse with conservation .
The standard is the right believe (Unitarian) .
If it’s typically coinciding then it’s a real word of Allah.
I encourage you to continue in this direction. I think you’re specialized in this study. |
Thank you that is nice of you to say. But I'm not specialized, I just come from a city with many muslims and hindus and sikhs.
| Quote: | | I’m very interested with Unitarian believes, I would expect that the Unitarian believers don’t follow the Trinity's churches in the acceptance or denial of the books. |
As a simplification, it may help you to see it this way:
Unitarians accept OT + NT only.
Trinitarians accept OT + NT + Nicene Creed 325 AD.
| Quote: | I’m interested in the comparison between the Christian books and the Quran as far as I know we Muslims didn’t pay much effort in this area.
Regards |
In reality I do not think there is a great deal of difference between the Quran and NT in purely text-critical issues. Of course the Uttman Quran being a sole text makes it easier than Christians which for the NT have separate codices (= books) in the Vatican and the British Museum and Oxford which contain tiny differences 0.2%, but nothing like the differences found between copies of other 2000 year old texts. I do not know whether the Tashkent Quran and Mecca Quran have any differences. I assume they must have 0.01%, simply because it is impossible not to have any.
Also the Quran having a sole author is easier than the OT and NT which cover 1500 years, 66 books, 30 authors. But again we take this breadth of many witnesses over 1500 years as a benefit.
Mainly the reason for my preference for OT & NT to Quran is not because of textual matters - on textual matters I don't know, but as Mohammed is only 1 author and more recent I would expect him to be better than NT, no problem. Instead it is because of content.
I've read many holy books - Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, Talmud, Mishnah, Enoch etc., Lao Tse, Confucious, Therevada Buddhist Scriptures, Quran, a little Hadith, ancient Greek holy texts, ancient Egyptian holy texts, ancient Canaanite holy texts. I've only peeked at the book of Mormon and Bahai. The reason I go back to the NT and OT is because of the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
I like him, it isn't the book, it's the man.
Steven |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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Hi Steven,
You disappointed me today. We used to discuss every point. It was a good way to analyze what the other said and then reply accordingly. Do you know that I spent about half day to verify every word in the previous post. You did the same in the Ishmael-Isaac thread. I noticed that you ignored the core discussion and went into side ones. Please find some comments on this post and I’ll include the points that you didn’t reply on it.
| Steven3 wrote: |
| Abdelaleem wrote: | Before asking the question, please find a list of discovery dates for these Gospels
- Gospel of James.....http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancyjames.html , come from the tenth century or later. The earliest known manuscript of the text was found in 1958; |
Look at the head of that webpage, it says - Estimated Range of Dating: 140-170 C.E. |
Steven, I know that these Gospels existed since 2nd or 3rd century and then disappeared may be after or before Mohamed but I think, personal thinking that it has been destroyed by the Trinity church . it needs a deep research in the Christian book to find any of references to these books
My main point which you’ve avoided, you said about relates which mean Mohamed used these books to write Quran
Let me review our steam of discussion:-
- You think that Mohamed has help from some Christians like Waraqa
- And then in last post you find some coincide with NTA documents and this another proof that Mohamed has read directly or indirectly
Let us first agree on the following:-
- Mohamed was unlettered man
- His wife consulted her uncle Waraqa when Mohamed see Gabriel first time
- No other trusted Hadith about Warqa except the previous consultancy
| Steven3 wrote: |
The OT and NT are the words of Allah. But the Quran also relates some material from pseudo-Gospels, Christian sources outside the NT - for example:
…..
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What did you mean is:-
- Mohamed can have access to these books either directly or indirectly
- Using this help he wrote the Quran
I reviewed the internet and found some data about “When these books rediscovered” and found some data that it has been discovered in the past 150 years. Which mean these books might or might not exist in Mohamed’s era. I challenged this quote by saying suppose that these books were existing at that time which I doubt, and if it exists at that time there were few copies. The question that you didn’t answer is :
Giving the following facts:
There is unlettered man in an isolated desert
• There are some hidden books which the church has destroyed thousands of it all over the history
• These books have been rediscovered since 150 years
• There is some I call it compliant or synchronization of Quran and these books
• Also, there is some compliancy with the OT and NT canonical books
I can add:-
- Suppose that these books were there at 600 AD, there were few copies as it’s not canonical books
- These books found in different languages
The question is
Do you think unlettered one in an isolated city in the desert with the help of who ever can have all these books that has been discovered and translated by researchers?
The answer is for sure NO , Mohamed even one hundred like him can’t have all these books and then study it, and then decide which one should be followed?
The result of this is
"there is one source for all of these books"[/b], and we should be conservative about the changes has been made by people.
How do you explain this?
[b]Steven Steven Steven Steven Steven, can you explain???????????????
It’s devolution from Allah.
----------------------------------------
| Steven3 wrote: |
No it isn't, you're right. So we'd look for other tests - see "The NT Canon" by Metzger for textual tests. But for me the most important would be doctrinal consistency with the OT. By these tests 25 of 27 the NT books do very well, in my view all 27. The NTA (the one with the story about Jesus making a clay bird for example) fail those text-critical tests. But as I said you'd need to read Metzger, or we start a new thread on NT canon. |
Even the tests are not enough to authenticate the books. Using “doctrinal consistency with the OT” I think you’ll refuse many of verse that is talking about trinity or Christ is a God.
I’ll read in Metger http://www.earlham.edu/~seidti/iam/text_crit.html
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| Steven3 wrote: |
| Quote: | | But there still a big question, where is the exact words of GOD? Where is the Gospel according to Christ? Where is the book that doesn’t start with “I’m writing this Gospel for ?? reasons) |
For the same reason that God never appeared or spoke to men directly at any point. He only speaks through angels or, Heb1:1, through his Son. Besides the Quran is the same - God to Gabriel, Gabriel to Mohammed, Mohammed to his disciples, his disciples write the book. |
Steven, I’m very clear. The Quran and the first five in the OT are from Allah. No influence from a human being.Gospels according to X, it’s not from Allah. It’s Mark who is describing a situation. We need a pure Allah’s words without introduction from some one like Mark or Matthew or any.
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| Steven3 wrote: |
Thank you that is nice of you to say. But I'm not specialized, I just come from a city with many muslims and hindus and sikhs. |
How come?. You’re very knowledgeable more than an amateur. As You know multiple languages not only live ones but also dead ones
No problem,I’m happy, let us continue.
| Steven3 wrote: |
| Quote: | I’m interested in the comparison between the Christian books and the Quran as far as I know we Muslims didn’t pay much effort in this area.
Regards |
In reality I do not think there is a great deal of difference between the Quran and NT in ….
Mainly the reason for my preference for OT & NT to Quran is not because of textual matters - on textual matters I don't know, but as Mohammed is only 1 author and more recent I would expect him to be better than NT, no problem. Instead it is because of content. |
I assure you there is no single difference between Uttman Quran 630 AD and my Quran and yours. It’s possible because we had thousands memorized in the early years of Islam. Even if we would loose this copy, no difference we’ve millions memorized it from generation to another till today.
The case is not one or many authors , Allah Almighty guaranteed himself that the Quran will be kept as is till the last day. Surah 15: [9] We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
I’m sure and challenge there is not even 0.000000000000000000000001 % diffence between these copies. There is no even difference in one letter.
It’s another evidence that the Quran is from Allah as it’s unchallenged. Noone can challenge one verse like this one. Noone succeded to challenge a commitment in Quran like this. It’s from Allah.
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| Steven3 wrote: |
I've read many holy books - Mahabharata, Bhagavad Gita, Talmud, Mishnah, Enoch etc., Lao Tse, Confucious, Therevada Buddhist Scriptures, Quran, a little Hadith, ancient Greek holy texts, ancient Egyptian holy texts, ancient Canaanite holy texts. I've only peeked at the book of Mormon and Bahai. The reason I go back to the NT and OT is because of the person of Jesus of Nazareth
I like him, it isn't the book, it's the man. . |
If you really like Christ , you’ll find in Quran and Hadith more info about him:-
- It’s clear in Quran that he is not a god (you’re Unitarian) , but you’ll find many corrupted verse in NT about his “he is a God, or son of God)
- You’ll find in Qurans his miracles :-
o He spoke to his mother after she has born him
o Speaking to hews to make his mother innocent from touching a man ,while he is very young
o He was doing birds from muld and then ask Allah to make it live
o He asked Allah to make someone come back to live again after his death
o He is innocent from trinity
o He is ….
- You’ll find his conversations with companions
- You’ll find when his story when his companions asks him to eat food from the heaven
- ….
Many things about him peace upon him. Quran and Hadith respects him very much and offered him in a respectable picture more more beautiful that his picture in NT.
His mother is best ever ever women since Allah created the Adam and Eve. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: Islam |
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What Muslems are trying to justify, is their current violent founded religion, that also still promotes those same violent tenets including beating it's women (may be all women) and that kind of Religion is ungodly and evil!
Gal. 4:16 KJV |
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ragman13
Labrador
Joined: 07 Jul 2007
Posts: 318
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Abdelaleem,
To answer your original post of weather or not Muhammad was a man of God.
Muhammad was lacking as a Moral Example.
1) The Quran, based on revelation recieved from Allah through the angel Gabriel, commands that men should have no more than four wives (Sura 4:3). But Muhammad married 11 women after the death of his firs wife, Khadija.
2) Muhammad ordered his men to raid caravans, and allowed them to keep the booty as long as he was given one-fifth of everything.
3) Unlike Jesus, who taught that we should love our enemies (Mattew 5:44), Muhammad ordered executions of some people in Mecca who had formerly stood against him.
4) Jesus told Peter to put away his sword (Matthew 26:52), Muhammad was well known as the "prophet of the sword," actively using it for the furtherance of Islam. This hardly seems like a good moral example.
So I would have to say no Muhammad was not a man of God. |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ragman13 wrote: | Hello Abdelaleem,
To answer your original post of weather or not Muhammad was a man of God.
Muhammad was lacking as a Moral Example.
1) The Quran, based on revelation recieved from Allah through the angel Gabriel, commands that men should have no more than four wives (Sura 4:3). But Muhammad married 11 women after the death of his firs wife, Khadija.
2) Muhammad ordered his men to raid caravans, and allowed them to keep the booty as long as he was given one-fifth of everything.
3) Unlike Jesus, who taught that we should love our enemies (Mattew 5:44), Muhammad ordered executions of some people in Mecca who had formerly stood against him.
4) Jesus told Peter to put away his sword (Matthew 26:52), Muhammad was well known as the "prophet of the sword," actively using it for the furtherance of Islam. This hardly seems like a good moral example.
So I would have to say no Muhammad was not a man of God. |
Dear Ragman and All,
I’m very surprised about your thoughts, it’s not only yours but it’s of most of Christians.
Is it all what you know about Mohamed and Islam?
What I see is “a plan like” to set all people opinion.
It’s a set bad picture for you to hate Islam and Mohamed.
All what you learnt in your first instance about Islam is all what you’re saying now
Did you ever think , Is it fair that this all what I know about Islam and Mohamed?
Is real that , Mohamed and Islam are a set of killing, hastiness,,, it’s not fare as every bad entity might have some good
I believe it’s a bad intention from writers and media to set your mind.
For the debate purposes only , suppose Mohamed did what you said about him.
The NT and OT is full of lies and bad stories about all profits peace upon them all.
They’re innocent from all these charges.
They are all an example of purity. Abraham, David, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed
This is how we see all the profits from Allah, please compare between the 2 pictures
Compare Moslims picture about Christ peace upon him and your picture about Mohamed. And say who is full of love and who is full of hate
I’m just saying suppose that these allegations are true. It shouldn’t stop you from learning more about Islam.
If I were you . I’ll say to myself “OK, let see what is Mohamed Message. I read and listened enough from others, why don’t I try to read and listen from the Muslims themselves, fait enough”
This is how wise people should do.
Like a judge , you listened to others words about Mohamed.
Try once to read from people who love him. Try to listen to Muslims about :-
What does Islam mean?
Who exactly Mohamed is?
How is his life?
What are his commands?
……
From Muslims documents not from people whom their heart is full of hastiness.
Many people in this forum say all the time about love love love but their thoughts are a group of lies and hate.
I knew about Christ more that you do.
I knew about NT and OT more that you do.
I’ll not discuss these allegations, do you know why:-
• It’s lies
•
• You’ll never be convinced with my defence, not because my debate is weak (as you see I’ve strong arguments and I have debate skills) but because you don’t have info . whatever I’ll say you’ll not understand or accept
•
• We’ll not reach anywhere
So, I like people to know about Mohamed and Islam first and then we can debate.
This why I’ve very positive and constructive debate with Steven3 because he knows about Islam.
He met many Moslims. So, we can debate because he has a base.
I hope you get what I mean. You’re welcome.
Please find some URLs where you can read about Islam
Basic of Faith http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=128
On Religious Tolerance http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=137
Islam: Misunderstood throughout the World http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=91
All about Islam http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=topics
Regards |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:48 pm Post subject: Islam |
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Debating the teachings of the killer and woman beater Muhammed is wasted effort.
Discussing the non violent, non woman beating Christ is not a wasted effort.
You Muslems prefer to waste your time and effort.
That says everything about your mentality! |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| composer2005 wrote: | Debating the teachings of the killer and woman beater Muhammed is wasted effort.
Discussing the non violent, non woman beating Christ is not a wasted effort.
You Muslems prefer to waste your time and effort.
That says everything about your mentality! |
Dear all,
As you see Composer is a sample of the people who doesn't know what he is talking about .
He doesn't like to know.
He is repeating himself
He posted the same allegations in all posts whatever the subject is
How can one discuss one like this?
if you ask him he'll say I love the world , I love Mohamed I love Moslims, I'm full of holy spirit
you can see how his words are which translates what exactly in his heart
in all threads he makes smoke to noise on people who likes to know
you know Allah said to us since 1500 years how to deal with people like him
25:[63] And the servants of (Allah) Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, "Peace!"
16:[125] Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. |
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