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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| composer2005 wrote: | I am still waiting for the so called evidence showing that Christ 'killed' any body. let alone killed his enemies in order to defend his Religion?
Cheers! |
ًWho said that he did? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi composer,
you talking from a physical or spiritual point of view?
Because Jesus killed a lot of people's wrong beliefs and religions (gods) when he came.
So if a person has faith in their god and their god is their life, and Jesus killed their gods by eliminating the vain worship of them..
then in a spiritual way he took their "life" away..which wasn't really life it was death. And gave them good knowledge of the true God which leads to life.
You can kill physically and you can kill spiritually..
in my opinion..
like killing a disease with good medicine.
You can't necessarilly see a disease with the naked eye but you can see the symptoms.
So what are the symptom signs of false religion?
hatefulness, greed, envy,...
and it's replaced with good medicine..LOVE.
So I guess Love kills huh?
So did Jesus kill the saducees and pharissees religion from progressing and becoming an untreatable disease?
Did he cut it out at the root?
still some stray twigs none the less.. 
just tossin..
hugs
lone |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| Abdelaleem wrote: | | composer2005 wrote: | I am still waiting for the so called evidence showing that Christ 'killed' any body. let alone killed his enemies in order to defend his Religion?
Cheers! |
ًWho said that he did? |
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | (See this Thread Page 1) Do you really think that Christ didn’t kill no body? |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject: Ishmael |
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Hello Abdulhakeem 
I was late in welcoming you in your introduction thread. I introduced myself there as a Unitarian who has read the Quran a couple of times. | Abdulhakeem wrote: | I would like to debate on "Was Mohammed a Man of God? " and I will be using the Qur'an, the Bible, and the science.
So please nominate. |
I'm sorry if a minority of the posts in this thread have been unfriendly to you. I don't think that's helpful. I can see there's no point on having any debate/discussion that is not friendly, and is not based on commands in both Bible and Quran to be peaceable and reasonable.
I have a question which is not so much related to Mohammed but to the disagreements between the Quran and the Old Testament. Particularly, to start with one important one, whether Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael.
Now as I read the Quran text Mohammed does not make clear which son was to be sacrificed, but generally the Hadith says it was Ishmael
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/MusTrad/sacrifice.html
Now assuming you accept Hadith, doesn't this create a problem? The Quran, following the Jewish Old Testament, takes the stories of Isaac's descendants - Moses, David, Jesus, and not the descendants of Ishmael. Why?
God bless
Steven |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: Islam |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Hi composer,
you talking from a physical or spiritual point of view? |
Physical!
Muslems are guilty!
RCC (Roman Catholicism) is guilty!
trinitarians are guilty!
Cheers! |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | Abdelaleem wrote: | | composer2005 wrote: | I am still waiting for the so called evidence showing that Christ 'killed' any body. let alone killed his enemies in order to defend his Religion?
Cheers! |
ًWho said that he did? |
| Abdelaleem wrote: | | (See this Thread Page 1) Do you really think that Christ didn’t kill no body? |
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I explained my point when I put Matthew 10 :34-36
I said also it doesn't mean he comes for this but this is the result of his new religion |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | lone-traveler wrote: | Hi composer,
you talking from a physical or spiritual point of view? |
Physical!
Muslems are guilty!
RCC (Roman Catholicism) is guilty!
trinitarians are guilty!
Cheers! |
are there any that aren't guilty?
hugs
lone |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Ishmael |
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Can I suggest that this also might best be a separate thread - Ishmael or Isaac?
| Steven3 wrote: | Now as I read the Quran text Mohammed does not make clear which son was to be sacrificed, but generally the Hadith says it was Ishmael
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/MusTrad/sacrifice.html
Now assuming you accept Hadith, doesn't this create a problem? The Quran, following the Jewish Old Testament, takes the stories of Isaac's descendants - Moses, David, Jesus, and not the descendants of Ishmael. Why?
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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Hi Lone Traveler | lone-traveler wrote: | are there any that aren't guilty?
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I imagine Composer's point is not talking about sin in general, but related to specific guilt of breaking "turn the other cheek" "resist no the evil man" Matt5, "he who takes the sword will perish by the sword" Matt26:52 and "not fight" John 18:36 etc.
So yes there are a few small churches that are pacifist.
Hi Abdulaleem
| Abdulaleem wrote: | I explained my point when I put Matthew 10 :34-36
I said also it doesn't mean he comes for this but this is the result of his new religion |
You realise I'm sure that Matt10:34-36 initially refers to Christians being killed by their (Jewish) relatives, as even Paul persecuted family members who were "in Christ before me". Christ isn't saying "fight back" he's saying "you'll be be persecuted"
I disagree that Christian violence, the Crusades, etc, are a result of Christ's teaching. No Christian in the New Testament ever hurt anyone - except Peter, and he was immediately rebuked by Jesus and the servant's ear healed in Matt26:52 "Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword."
Christian violence, like the Crusades and so on, are part of the same decline in Christianity that the Trinity is. Both (broadly speaking) date from Emperor Constantine, not Christ. You will not find any Unitarians who have taken part in Crusades.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
Please do not judge Christ and the NT by Christianity, likewise we should not judge Muhammed and the Quran by muslim history.
God bless
Steven |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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I think Ishmael and Isaac are allegories like Hagai and Sarah..
Not saying they didn't exist but there is more to the story spiritually then what we take for granted physically.
I think like Adam is the forerunner for Christ, Ishmael is the forerunner for Isaac.
There are ALWAYS two brothers at war..
Jews/Gentiles..Esau/Jacob..Cain/Abel...
not that ones evil and one is good but that one is flesh and the other spirit...
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Ishmael and Isaac are both Abraham's seed..
I believe they are both the same "generation" but one physical and one spiritual...
hard to explain..
Look brothers right?
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death.
We are told not to love the flesh and or to walk after it, that we are to follow the spirit only...
however we are flesh and blood and the spirit resides in it.
So aught we not to love our flesh as we love our spirit?
so then there is no enmity between Ishmael and Isaac, there is no enmity between God and man..
There is no enmity between flesh and spirit...if we walk in truth.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
brothers:
Gen 29:12 And Jacob told Rachel that he [was] her father's brother, and that he [was] Rebekah's son: and she ran and told her father.
Gen 29:13 ¶ And it came to pass, when Laban heard the tidings of Jacob his sister's son, that he ran to meet him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and brought him to his house. And he told Laban all these things.
Gen 29:14 And Laban said to him, Surely thou [art] my bone and my flesh. And he abode with him the space of a month.
I just see too much coincidence between Ishmael having twelve sons and Isaac having twelve sons...
anywho..
I would enjoy listening to the discussion..
I hope you guys start one.. 
hugs
lone |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| Steven3 wrote: | | So yes there are a few small churches that are pacifist. |
I concur!
| Steven3 wrote: | You realise I'm sure that Matt10:34-36 initially refers to Christians being killed by their (Jewish) relatives, as even Paul persecuted family members who were "in Christ before me". Christ isn't saying "fight back" he's saying "you'll be be persecuted"
I disagree that Christian violence, the Crusades, etc, are a result of Christ's teaching. No Christian in the New Testament ever hurt anyone - except Peter, and he was immediately rebuked by Jesus and the servant's ear healed in Matt26:52 "Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword."
Christian violence, like the Crusades and so on, are part of the same decline in Christianity that the Trinity is. Both (broadly speaking) date from Emperor Constantine, not Christ. You will not find any Unitarians who have taken part in Crusades.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” |
I concur!
| Steven3 wrote: | | Please do not judge Christ and the NT by Christianity,. . . |
I concur!
| Steven3 wrote: | . . . likewise we should not judge Muhammed and the Quran by muslim history.
God bless
Steven |
Indeed every individual must give account for their personal actions. 1. History has proven that Mohammed was not a man of God but a cruel, vicious and violent fraud. (My source: Gibbon's - "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" D M LOW - A one-volume abridgement)(Edward Gibbon was a Historian)
2. Muslems here have at least attested honestly and openly to the fact that Mohammed killed or instructed others to kill, in order to sustain his Religion.
3. History also proves the trinitarian churches are equally founded upon those same ungodly tenets.
Cheers! |
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Abdulhakeem
Little Hamster
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Composer2007
You saying "Mohammed killed or instructed others to kill, in order to sustain his Religion" is an assumption unless you support it from the words of Mohammed. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: Islam |
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You admitted yourself that Muhammed killed to sustain his Religion and you said that other Religions did the same so you admitted you are all as bad as each other and now you try to take back what you already admitted?
That is flagrant dishonesty!
Bizarre! |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| composer2005 wrote: | You admitted yourself that Muhammed killed to sustain his Religion and you said that other Religions did the same so you admitted you are all as bad as each other and now you try to take back what you already admitted?
That is flagrant dishonesty!
Bizarre! |
ِAs me and others explained before there is a difference between murder and fights.
Yes Mohamed led Moslims to fight to defend themselves and the new religion but he is not a murderer.
do you want to know how these fights was :-
First one (Badr) 300 Moslims againsts 1000
Second (Ohod ) 1000 against 1000
Third 3000 against 3000
It was like a mesacre to Moslims |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Islam |
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| Steven3 wrote: |
Hi Abdulaleem
| Abdulaleem wrote: | I explained my point when I put Matthew 10 :34-36
I said also it doesn't mean he comes for this but this is the result of his new religion |
You realise I'm sure that Matt10:34-36 initially refers to Christians being killed by their (Jewish) relatives, as even Paul persecuted family members who were "in Christ before me". Christ isn't saying "fight back" he's saying "you'll be be persecuted" |
| Steven3 wrote: | | Please do not judge Christ and the NT by Christianity, likewise we should not judge Muhammed and the Quran by muslim history. |
Prophet Christ (Eisa) peace be upon him is ours and doesn’t belong the trinity church. There is no relationship between him and what have been done by Christians. not only this but also he is innocent from trinity and any
Allah said 3:[45] Behold! the angels said: "O Maryam! Allah giveth Thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Al-Masih 'Isa. The son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah;
3:[46] "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
3:[47] She said: "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a Plan, He but saith to it, `Be', and it is!
3:[52] When 'Isa found unbelief on their part he said: "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: we believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
3:[53] "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness."
3:[54] And (then Unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.
3:[55] Behold! Allah said: "O 'Isa! I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
5:[116] And behold! Allah will say: "O 'Isa the son of Maryam! didst thou say unto men, 'Worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
5:[117] "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
Prophet Christ (Eisa) peace be upon him |
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