Was Mohammed a Man of God? Debate

FFT · Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Islam

composer2005: You are equivocating between killing and murder.

You do realize there is a difference, right?

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561

No matter how you try and twist it otherwise, the Christ Adelphians have not murdered or killed or had honor killings or whatever atrocities you want to present as excuses for the ungodly Religion of Islam and the ungodly trinitarians who likewise killed, murdered etc. etc. etc. to sustain their ungodly Religion.

How people condone violence for any excuse or reason is always distressing to me and demonstrates just how far they are from Christ's Original Gospel.

FFT · Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:10 am Post subject:

There is a distinction in the laws of the Old Testament between murder and killing in general.

Why are you failing to make the same distinction?

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561

FFT · Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:14 am Post subject:

It was clearly okay with God in 1 Samuel 15. Who are you to say any different, exactly?

"My belief system" Laughing

_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

Abdelaleem · Big Goldfish Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 66

Your mind is set. Noway to change your thoughts even if after I put Quran in front of you.
No religion affords violence.
The defense is a legal right.
Your church is a theoretical soscity exists only on internet it's not tested.
The real test is when a religion has a country and it's surrounded by other religions. At that time and only then you can say we are not even defend ourselves.
FYI, the unitarian churches have been faught and its fellowships are killed by Catholics.
But the history records that they defended themselves. no one can stand and put his hands down and let others kill him.
We know in Islam about Christ live more than you do.
We know in Islam about Original Church than what you know.

FFT · Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:06 am Post subject:

Abdulhakeem · Little Hamster Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Posts: 78

Dear composer2005,

In the excerpts you quoted from "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"there are many misunderstandings about Mohammed that I will clarify as follows;

1) Quoting "The first and most arduous conquests of Mahomet were those of his wife, his servant, his pupil, and his friend" is wrong had Mohammed wanted to conquer his people, Mohammed would not have held and entered into peace treaties with his blood people and with Jews and Christians as recorded in the biography.

2) Quoting "he presented himself as a prophet to those who were most conversant with his infirmities as a man" is wrong because many of those who enemies, different religions such Judiasim and Christianity, different social classes, and different professions who disagressed with him first then after they had the Qur'an, they believed in him as a messenger of God.

3) Quting "The use of fraud and perfidy, of cruelty and injustice" is an assumption unless you prove it from examples of Moahmmed because he who claims must prove.

4) Quoting "Mahomet commanded or approved the assassination of the Jews and idolaters who had escaped from the field of battle" is a lie against Moahmmed that is refuted by Mohammed words "Do not kill those who do not giht you."

5) Quoting "Of his last years ambition was the ruling passion" is a lie because Mohammed was offered to be the ruler of his tribe, which was number one influencing tribe in Arabia, to give up calling people to worship one God. However, Mohammed refused to accept the offer of becoming the king of his tribe in exchange of stopping to call for worshipping one God.

6) Quoting "philosopher will observe that their credulity and his success would tend more strongly to fortify the assurance of his divine mission" because Mohammed declared that he had a divine mission at a time his new reverts to Islam were weak because they were tortured by their people.

7) Quoting "Perfumes and women were the two sensual enjoyments which his nature required, and his religion did not forbid" does not disprove the prophethood because Mohammed married many wives as same as prophet David according to 1 Chronicles 14:3 which reads "David took more wives at Jerusalem", which still did not disprove the prophethood of David.

8) Quoting "Mahomet affirmed that the fervour of his devotion was increased by these innocent pleasures" is false because he was offered the beautiful women, for example, but he refused.

9) Quoting "his private conduct Mahomet indulged the appetites of a man, and abused the claims of a prophet" is false because had he abused the claims of a prophet, Jews and Christians, who were learned, would not have converted to Islam if he was doing any abuse of a prophet's claims.

10) Quoting "the female sex, without reserve, was abandoned to his desires" is a lie against Mohammed that is not supported by one single example of his life. Had Mohammed done such a thing, his enemies, who used to debate him, would have accused a thing which did not happen.

11) Quoting "the female sex, without reserve, was abandoned to his desires" , if true, does not disprove the prophethood of Mohmmed because David, who was a prophet, he committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered her husband according to 2 Samuel 11.

12) Quoting " Mahomet was instructed to preach and to fight" does not disprove the prophet of Mohammed because David, who was a prophet, killed in one battle 47000 men according to 1 Chronicles 19:18.

13) Quoting " His voice invited the Arabs to freedom and victory, to arms and rapine, to the indulgence of their darling passions in this world and the other" is a lie because had the battles of Mohammed been driven for worldly reasons, so Mohammed would have accepted the offer of his tribe to give him the most beautiful women and wealth, and leadership over his people without needing to go for wars.

Abdulhakeem · Little Hamster Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Posts: 78

Dear composer2005,

In the excerpts you quoted from "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"there are many misunderstandings about Mohammed that I will clarify as follows;

1) Quoting "The first and most arduous conquests of Mahomet were those of his wife, his servant, his pupil, and his friend" is wrong had Mohammed wanted to conquer his people, Mohammed would not have held and entered into peace treaties with his blood people and with Jews and Christians as recorded in the biography.

2) Quoting "he presented himself as a prophet to those who were most conversant with his infirmities as a man" is wrong because many of those who enemies, different religions such Judiasim and Christianity, different social classes, and different professions who disagressed with him first then after they had the Qur'an, they believed in him as a messenger of God.

3) Quting "The use of fraud and perfidy, of cruelty and injustice" is an assumption unless you prove it from examples of Moahmmed because he who claims must prove.

4) Quoting "Mahomet commanded or approved the assassination of the Jews and idolaters who had escaped from the field of battle" is a lie against Moahmmed that is refuted by Mohammed words "Do not kill those who do not giht you."

5) Quoting "Of his last years ambition was the ruling passion" is a lie because Mohammed was offered to be the ruler of his tribe, which was number one influencing tribe in Arabia, to give up calling people to worship one God. However, Mohammed refused to accept the offer of becoming the king of his tribe in exchange of stopping to call for worshipping one God.

6) Quoting "philosopher will observe that their credulity and his success would tend more strongly to fortify the assurance of his divine mission" because Mohammed declared that he had a divine mission at a time his new reverts to Islam were weak because they were tortured by their people.

7) Quoting "Perfumes and women were the two sensual enjoyments which his nature required, and his religion did not forbid" does not disprove the prophethood because Mohammed married many wives as same as prophet David according to 1 Chronicles 14:3 which reads "David took more wives at Jerusalem", which still did not disprove the prophethood of David.

8) Quoting "Mahomet affirmed that the fervour of his devotion was increased by these innocent pleasures" is false because he was offered the beautiful women, for example, but he refused.

9) Quoting "his private conduct Mahomet indulged the appetites of a man, and abused the claims of a prophet" is false because had he abused the claims of a prophet, Jews and Christians, who were learned, would not have converted to Islam if he was doing any abuse of a prophet's claims.

10) Quoting "the female sex, without reserve, was abandoned to his desires" is a lie against Mohammed that is not supported by one single example of his life. Had Mohammed done such a thing, his enemies, who used to debate him, would have accused a thing which did not happen.

11) Quoting "the female sex, without reserve, was abandoned to his desires" , if true, does not disprove the prophethood of Mohmmed because David, who was a prophet, he committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered her husband according to 2 Samuel 11.

12) Quoting " Mahomet was instructed to preach and to fight" does not disprove the prophet of Mohammed because David, who was a prophet, killed in one battle 47000 men according to 1 Chronicles 19:18.

13) Quoting " His voice invited the Arabs to freedom and victory, to arms and rapine, to the indulgence of their darling passions in this world and the other" is a lie because had the battles of Mohammed been driven for worldly reasons, so Mohammed would have accepted the offer of his tribe to give him the most beautiful women and wealth, and leadership over his people without needing to go for wars.

Abdulhakeem · Little Hamster Joined: 18 Oct 2007 Posts: 78

My brother towshab,

Thank you for your question. The Qur'an is clear in Chapter 2:256 which says "There is no compulsion in religion"; therefore, forcing people to convert to Islam is not part of Islam. Islam teaches to deliver the message of Islam to people and let them decide, but not to force them.

If a Muslim forces a person to enter Islam; then this Muslim is going against Islam's teachings.

Therefore, we must not judge Islam by its people because people can be wrong. We have, rather, to Islam from its two main sources, the Qur'an and the words and actions of the prophet Mohammed.

Abdelaleem · Big Goldfish Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 66

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:49 am Post subject:

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Mar 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
Mar 3:33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
Mar 3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Jhn 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Psa 72:17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and [men] shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Eze 2:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day.

Mar 13:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any [man] deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am [Christ]; and shall deceive many.
Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for [such things] must needs be; but the end [shall] not [be] yet.
Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these [are] the beginnings of sorrows.
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against [their] parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

1Jo 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Why is it so difficult?.. Sad

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Abdelaleem · Big Goldfish Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 66

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject:

I believe there is only one God and one law..regardless of what religion, what nation, what denomination, what creed, what race, what gender..and if ther be any other thing.

Psa 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it [is] my meditation all the day.

Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

1Pe 2:20 For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.

does Islam say the same thing?

hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561

I am still waiting for the so called evidence showing that Christ 'killed' any body. let alone killed his enemies in order to defend his Religion?

Cheers!