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| Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? Why or why not? |
| Yes, I believe in the Trinity (and this is why..) |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
| No, I don't believe in the Trinity (and here's why) |
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94% |
[ 16 ] |
| I'm not sure if I believe or not (here are my questions) |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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Message |
Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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 Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | One minute you know nothing of the Catholic Church and in the same breath you become an expert who tries to tell me that the Catholic Church wasn't responsible for any misconceptions derived from what it taught? |
Composer,
The inquisitor is rearing it's ugly head in you again. Lucky there are only a few of you around here so the bombardment of questions is limited.
I've noticed that you are NOT Christiadelphian and do NOT represent them so lurkers should beware.
I said that I had "never in my life read what the Catholic Church believes about the Trinity!" I have read the long horrific history of the Papacy as well as the controversy over Arianism. The concept of the trinity and the history of the Papacy are two different things. Their behavior is Just like the behavior of the Hebrew priest class.
| Quote: | | No, it came from misunderstandings of the Bible and based in part upon a corruption of the Hebrew Term that IS NEVER A PROPER NAME for any thing. |
Jesus' "proper name" wasn't revealed in the OT scripture yet he has one.
| Quote: | | THE GEOGRAPHICAL DISTRIBUTION OF DEMON-POSSESSION |
Jesus and Jesus alone could tell what was real demonic possession and what was not! The apostles were SAID to have cast out demons when in reality their was no one around that could tell the difference.
The demon distribution argument comes from someone who has an agenda and is trying to use the Bible to justify a new religion......which Isn't in the Bible.
Thanks
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Colter wrote: | | The inquisitor is rearing it's ugly head in you again. Lucky there are only a few of you around here so the bombardment of questions is limited. |
I am 'trying the spirits' as God commands and your 'spirit' is a false spirit and there are just enough like me around to recognise those like you who preach that 'false spirit'.
| Colter wrote: | | I've noticed that you are NOT Christiadelphian and do NOT represent them so lurkers should beware. |
I have small differences to the Christ Adelphians and I have always made that known and I would echo viewers here to beware of those that turn to spuruous books like the Urantia Book because 'like you' the Bible fails you.
| Colter wrote: | | I said that I had "never in my life read what the Catholic Church believes about the Trinity!" I have read the long horrific history of the Papacy as well as the controversy over Arianism. The concept of the trinity and the history of the Papacy are two different things. Their behavior is Just like the behavior of the Hebrew priest class. |
They go hand in hand. False teachings and ungodly behaviour = False Religion.
The trinitarian churches have all been founded on such atrocities and History proves it. Those who perpetuate that violent foundation by remaining members of such ungodly institutions, are as guilty as those who initiated and practiced it from the beginning when they corrupted Christ's Original (non-trinitarian) Gospel.
| Quote: | | No, it came from misunderstandings of the Bible and based in part upon a corruption of the Hebrew Term that IS NEVER A PROPER NAME for any thing. |
| Colter wrote: | | Jesus' "proper name" wasn't revealed in the OT scripture yet he has one. |
Perhaps you could try to explain what you mean by this?
You appear to use this 'logic' as 'evidence' for your fallen heavenly angel spirit being?
I can see how desperate you are with silliness like this!
| Quote: | | THE GEOGRAPHICAL DISTRIBUTION OF DEMON-POSSESSION |
| Colter wrote: | Jesus and Jesus alone could tell what was real demonic possession and what was not! The apostles were SAID to have cast out demons when in reality their was no one around that could tell the difference.
The demon distribution argument comes from someone who has an agenda and is trying to use the Bible to justify a new religion......which Isn't in the Bible.Thanks Colter |
You have already proven your incapacity to refute the Christ Adelphians at their Forum and you are fairing just as poorly here.
Like other false religions, your reliance on your spurious UB, is proof positive of the inability of your current beliefs to have any legitimate Biblical support and that is why you run to it in feeble desperation.
The only 'demons' that literally exist are those in the minds of those like yourself and that is why Christ had to educate his apostles and followers with the same demon mentality as you now, just how misguided they also were.
It was perhaps you I earlier pointed out that 'demons can't drown' but you or some one who currently thought like you do now and realised their foolishness, also thought that Christ put the demons in the swine, so that when they drowned in the Lake that would take care of the demons? (Mark 5:9 - 13) KJV
Cheers! |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think we're getting a little off-track here....
I want to pose a couple of new questions heavily related to this topic....
Does anyone who believes the bible to be the word of God also believe in the Trinity? If so, why since there is so much biblically to prove the Trinity false?
Love, Luv  |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Sorry to be a bit picky, but the Bible is not actually considered God's Word, but rather it is God's Word as revealed by men through God's Inspiration. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, you are being a bit picky. If it's inspired by God as I believe it is, then it is the word of God.
Love, Luv |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Composer,
While the Christadelphians that I have had the opportunity to get to know may not agree with me at all about many matters of theology they still represent their faith with patience and tolerance of others. That is to say that I never once encountered anyone on BTDF that consistently had a "mean spirit". Sometimes they would get frustrated with my "childish digs" and sometimes I would get frustrated with their questions but no answers, or differing to the work of others but they are fundamentally good and intelligent people.
To sum up my feelings about the Christadelphians I see them as sincere but confused. The Bible presents so much contradiction and obvious error that a sincere person is forced to "make their own doctrine" by performing "nip and tucks". This phenomenon is actually true about all of us as no one has a monopoly on reality.
RELATIVITY OF CONCEPT FRAMES
Partial, incomplete, and evolving intellects would be helpless in the master universe, would be unable to form the first rational thought pattern, were it not for the innate ability of all mind, high or low, to form a universe frame in which to think. If mind cannot fathom conclusions, if it cannot penetrate to true origins, then will such mind unfailingly postulate conclusions and invent origins that it may have a means of logical thought within the frame of these mind-created postulates. And while such universe frames for creature thought are indispensable to rational intellectual operations, they are, without exception, erroneous to a greater or lesser degree.
Conceptual frames of the universe are only relatively true; they are serviceable scaffolding which must eventually give way before the expansions of enlarging cosmic comprehension. The understandings of truth, beauty, and goodness, morality, ethics, duty, love, divinity, origin, existence, purpose, destiny, time, space, even Deity, are only relatively true. God is much, much more than a Father, but the Father is man's highest concept of God; nonetheless, the Father-Son portrayal of Creator-creature relationship will be augmented by those supermortal conceptions of Deity which will be attained in Orvonton, in Havona, and on Paradise. Man must think in a mortal universe frame, but that does not mean that he cannot envision other and higher frames within which thought can take place.
In order to facilitate mortal comprehension of the universe of universes, the diverse levels of cosmic reality have been designated as finite, absonite, and absolute. Of these only the absolute is unqualifiedly eternal, truly existential. Absonites and finites are derivatives, modifications, qualifications, and attenuations of the original and primordial absolute reality of infinity.
The realms of the finite exist by virtue of the eternal purpose of God. Finite creatures, high and low, may propound theories, and have done so, as to the necessity of the finite in the cosmic economy, but in the last analysis it exists because God so willed. The universe cannot be explained, neither can a finite creature offer a rational reason for his own individual existence without appealing to the prior acts and pre-existent volition of ancestral beings, Creators or procreators. UB 55
Colter:
God is spirit therefore we must experience him in spirit. It is easier to prettify books into "the word of God" then to have a living relationship with his spiritual presence. That is why doctrine is formed, man wants to control God rather then be controlled. Man reduces God into comprehensible, understandable terms so as not to have to venture out onto the high seas of uncertain faith adventure.
UB:
"And then the Master, in his hour of teaching, went on to make clear these truths:
Until the races become highly intelligent and more fully civilized, there will persist many of those childlike and superstitious ceremonies which are so characteristic of the evolutionary religious practices of primitive and backward peoples. Until the human race progresses to the level of a higher and more general recognition of the realities of spiritual experience, large numbers of men and women will continue to show a personal preference for those religions of authority which require only intellectual assent, in contrast to the religion of the spirit, which entails active participation of mind and soul in the faith adventure of grappling with the rigorous realities of progressive human experience.
The acceptance of the traditional religions of authority presents the easy way out for man's urge to seek satisfaction for the longings of his spiritual nature. The settled, crystallized, and established religions of authority afford a ready refuge to which the distracted and distraught soul of man may flee when harassed by fear and tormented by uncertainty. Such a religion requires of its devotees, as the price to be paid for its satisfactions and assurances, only a passive and purely intellectual assent.
And for a long time there will live on earth those timid, fearful, and hesitant individuals who will prefer thus to secure their religious consolations, even though, in so casting their lot with the religions of authority, they compromise the sovereignty of personality, debase the dignity of self-respect, and utterly surrender the right to participate in that most thrilling and inspiring of all possible human experiences: the personal quest for truth, the exhilaration of facing the perils of intellectual discovery, the determination to explore the realities of personal religious experience, the supreme satisfaction of experiencing the personal triumph of the actual realization of the victory of spiritual faith over intellectual doubt as it is honestly won in the supreme adventure of all human existence--man seeking God, for himself and as himself, and finding him.
The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind--the theology of authority--requires little or none of these exertions from its formal believers. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy path for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with those faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search for the farther shores of spiritual realities as they may be discovered by the progressive human mind and experienced by the evolving human soul.
And Jesus went on to say: "At Jerusalem the religious leaders have formulated the various doctrines of their traditional teachers and the prophets of other days into an established system of intellectual beliefs, a religion of authority.
The appeal of all such religions is largely to the mind. And now are we about to enter upon a deadly conflict with such a religion since we will so shortly begin the bold proclamation of a new religion--a religion which is not a religion in the present-day meaning of that word, a religion that makes its chief appeal to the divine spirit of my Father which resides in the mind of man; a religion which shall derive its authority from the fruits of its acceptance that will so certainly appear in the personal experience of all who really and truly become believers in the truths of this higher spiritual communion."
Pointing out each of the twenty-four and calling them by name, Jesus said: "And now, which one of you would prefer to take this easy path of conformity to an established and fossilized religion, as defended by the Pharisees at Jerusalem, rather than to suffer the difficulties and persecutions attendant upon the mission of proclaiming a better way of salvation to men while you realize the satisfaction of discovering for yourselves the beauties of the realities of a living and personal experience in the eternal truths and supreme grandeurs of the kingdom of heaven? Are you fearful, soft, and ease-seeking? Are you afraid to trust your future in the hands of the God of truth, whose sons you are? Are you distrustful of the Father, whose children you are? Will you go back to the easy path of the certainty and intellectual settledness of the religion of traditional authority, or will you gird yourselves to go forward with me into that uncertain and troublous future of proclaiming the new truths of the religion of the spirit, the kingdom of heaven in the hearts of men?" UB 55
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:22 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Hi Colter,
If you read the Bible instead of swapping from fact to UB fantasy you might have a better chance.
Cheers! |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: Trinity |
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I do not see anything wrong with the idea of the trinity, except that we use the words three persons to explain it, which to me seems to confuse the issue. God is not a person, The Holy Spirit is not a person, at least not in the common definition of a person, now Jesus was a person, He had both a body and a spirit, Gen. 2:7, which is what i consider a person. God in three degrees, maybe, (the Jewish Explenation) God in three distinctions, maybe even better, God in all persons??? What do you think?javascript:emoticon(' ')
Smile |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1138
Location: US
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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JimD: | Quote: | | God is not a person, The Holy Spirit is not a person, at least not in the common definition of a person, now Jesus was a person, He had both a body and a spirit, Gen. 2:7, which is what i consider a person. |
Jesus is not God. Jesus is a part of God though as our children are a part of us. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit though he was created by and has the Holy Spirit in him. God is not the Holy Spirit but the Holy Spirit is of God.
What role, then, do each play in the grand scheme of things?
God is God. He is the creator of the universe and all things in it. There is but one God.
Jesus is Gods son. Born of man to set us free and to teach us the truth.
The Holy Spirit is Gods spirit that He gives away. The spirit Jesus was created with. The gift each of us is given by God.
Just having the gift of the Holy Spirit is not enough though as it's value depends upon what each of us decides to do with the gift and how we use it.
We can choose to nourish and nurture it or neglect and abuse it. We can cherish it and be thankful for it or we can hate and destroy it. We can use it for the good of others or use it for our own selfish gain with no thought to the pain we cause others.
Love, Luv |
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Abenadar
Tadpole
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Jesus had a god. He urged people only to follow the teachings of _his_ god more closely. He claimed no power apart from what was given from and entirely dependent upon his god. Any form of 'deity' or 'divinity' Jesus may be said to have has to be seen as inferior to and coming from a superior god. Since the inferior wants everyone to go to the superior god and the superior god claims superiority and absolute right to absolutely everything...making them equal makes a liar of them both and destroys the validity of either as a source of faith.
One cannot reference the bible while dismissing what it represents. But we prefer to argue based on modern things corrupted from the source. Look at the division in this thread and how it springs not from the Bible but from what people may've done with it. For those that want to bring us back, it's a mess! I can scarcely start on fighting the trinity without having to drag people back to the Bible to redefine, accurately this time, our terms 
That's one reason why this subject matters, as one person asked-the viking, I think. Apart from how God seems to care who or what is called god or treated as such regardless of how they might be affixed to him, examining one's understanding of god helps people to understand god...or at least understand why or how they don't.
Claiming to be in the spirit, from the spirit, where God wants you, or anything of the sort outside of being found with God's truth frankly doesn't matter. God likes truth, arguably his greatest condemnation against his priests was their departure from truth. He railed against them for that. Faith without truth is not a path that leads towards God. Fuzzy feelings and a sense of personal understanding isn't exactly God's hallmark for teaching people either. Most importantly, any special message anyone may get can't be from God and go against the Bible at the same time. Understand the truth and you can't be misled because you will know you are walking after God. Assume you have the truth because you think you're walking with God, and you'll meet him for the first time when you see him face to face.
The Shema was good enough for God to define himself by. The Shema was good enough for Jesus to define his religion by. These days, God's not good enough for us and we want nothing to do with Jesus' actual beliefs. So bring on human justification! Bring on that trinity! |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: Quote from Micah |
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| Colter wrote: | Composer,
While the Christadelphians that I have had the opportunity to get to know may not agree with me at all about many matters of theology they still represent their faith with patience and tolerance of others. That is to say that I never once encountered anyone on BTDF that consistently had a "mean spirit". Sometimes they would get frustrated with my "childish digs" and sometimes I would get frustrated with their questions but no answers, or differing to the work of others but they are fundamentally good and intelligent people.
To sum up my feelings about the Christadelphians I see them as sincere but confused. The Bible presents so much contradiction and obvious error that a sincere person is forced to "make their own doctrine" by performing "nip and tucks". This phenomenon is actually true about all of us as no one has a monopoly on reality.
RELATIVITY OF CONCEPT FRAMES
Partial, incomplete, and evolving intellects would be helpless in the master universe, would be unable to form the first rational thought pattern, were it not for the innate ability of all mind, high or low, to form a universe frame in which to think. If mind cannot fathom conclusions, if it cannot penetrate to true origins, then will such mind unfailingly postulate conclusions and invent origins that it may have a means of logical thought within the frame of these mind-created postulates. And while such universe frames for creature thought are indispensable to rational intellectual operations, they are, without exception, erroneous to a greater or lesser degree.
Conceptual frames of the universe are only relatively true; they are serviceable scaffolding which must eventually give way before the expansions of enlarging cosmic comprehension. The understandings of truth, beauty, and goodness, morality, ethics, duty, love, divinity, origin, existence, purpose, destiny, time, space, even Deity, are only relatively true. God is much, much more than a Father, but the Father is man's highest concept of God; nonetheless, the Father-Son portrayal of Creator-creature relationship will be augmented by those supermortal conceptions of Deity which will be attained in Orvonton, in Havona, and on Paradise. Man must think in a mortal universe frame, but that does not mean that he cannot envision other and higher frames within which thought can take place.
In order to facilitate mortal comprehension of the universe of universes, the diverse levels of cosmic reality have been designated as finite, absonite, and absolute. Of these only the absolute is unqualifiedly eternal, truly existential. Absonites and finites are derivatives, modifications, qualifications, and attenuations of the original and primordial absolute reality of infinity.
The realms of the finite exist by virtue of the eternal purpose of God. Finite creatures, high and low, may propound theories, and have done so, as to the necessity of the finite in the cosmic economy, but in the last analysis it exists because God so willed. The universe cannot be explained, neither can a finite creature offer a rational reason for his own individual existence without appealing to the prior acts and pre-existent volition of ancestral beings, Creators or procreators. UB 55
Colter:
God is spirit therefore we must experience him in spirit. It is easier to prettify books into "the word of God" then to have a living relationship with his spiritual presence. That is why doctrine is formed, man wants to control God rather then be controlled. Man reduces God into comprehensible, understandable terms so as not to have to venture out onto the high seas of uncertain faith adventure.
UB:
"And then the Master, in his hour of teaching, went on to make clear these truths:
Until the races become highly intelligent and more fully civilized, there will persist many of those childlike and superstitious ceremonies which are so characteristic of the evolutionary religious practices of primitive and backward peoples. Until the human race progresses to the level of a higher and more general recognition of the realities of spiritual experience, large numbers of men and women will continue to show a personal preference for those religions of authority which require only intellectual assent, in contrast to the religion of the spirit, which entails active participation of mind and soul in the faith adventure of grappling with the rigorous realities of progressive human experience.
The acceptance of the traditional religions of authority presents the easy way out for man's urge to seek satisfaction for the longings of his spiritual nature. The settled, crystallized, and established religions of authority afford a ready refuge to which the distracted and distraught soul of man may flee when harassed by fear and tormented by uncertainty. Such a religion requires of its devotees, as the price to be paid for its satisfactions and assurances, only a passive and purely intellectual assent.
And for a long time there will live on earth those timid, fearful, and hesitant individuals who will prefer thus to secure their religious consolations, even though, in so casting their lot with the religions of authority, they compromise the sovereignty of personality, debase the dignity of self-respect, and utterly surrender the right to participate in that most thrilling and inspiring of all possible human experiences: the personal quest for truth, the exhilaration of facing the perils of intellectual discovery, the determination to explore the realities of personal religious experience, the supreme satisfaction of experiencing the personal triumph of the actual realization of the victory of spiritual faith over intellectual doubt as it is honestly won in the supreme adventure of all human existence--man seeking God, for himself and as himself, and finding him.
The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind--the theology of authority--requires little or none of these exertions from its formal believers. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy path for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with those faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search for the farther shores of spiritual realities as they may be discovered by the progressive human mind and experienced by the evolving human soul.
And Jesus went on to say: "At Jerusalem the religious leaders have formulated the various doctrines of their traditional teachers and the prophets of other days into an established system of intellectual beliefs, a religion of authority.
The appeal of all such religions is largely to the mind. And now are we about to enter upon a deadly conflict with such a religion since we will so shortly begin the bold proclamation of a new religion--a religion which is not a religion in the present-day meaning of that word, a religion that makes its chief appeal to the divine spirit of my Father which resides in the mind of man; a religion which shall derive its authority from the fruits of its acceptance that will so certainly appear in the personal experience of all who really and truly become believers in the truths of this higher spiritual communion."
Pointing out each of the twenty-four and calling them by name, Jesus said: "And now, which one of you would prefer to take this easy path of conformity to an established and fossilized religion, as defended by the Pharisees at Jerusalem, rather than to suffer the difficulties and persecutions attendant upon the mission of proclaiming a better way of salvation to men while you realize the satisfaction of discovering for yourselves the beauties of the realities of a living and personal experience in the eternal truths and supreme grandeurs of the kingdom of heaven? Are you fearful, soft, and ease-seeking? Are you afraid to trust your future in the hands of the God of truth, whose sons you are? Are you distrustful of the Father, whose children you are? Will you go back to the easy path of the certainty and intellectual settledness of the religion of traditional authority, or will you gird yourselves to go forward with me into that uncertain and troublous future of proclaiming the new truths of the religion of the spirit, the kingdom of heaven in the hearts of men?" UB 55
“for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." I could not find this part of your quote from Micah???
Colter |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3190
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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Jim, why are you still quoting whole quotes of other people when you have been instructed not to do this?
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | “for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." I could not find this part of your quote from Micah??? |
Yes, that's correct, it was revealed ( re-revealed) in the Urantia Book.
During the Babylonion captivity the Hebrew preists redacted and editid the entire OT creating a new story specifically for themselves, that's the reason for the obveous bias. The Jews have no secular history because the preist destroyed all of it makeing them a miraculous people. This is why the Son of God did not fit their expected Messiah, and still doesn't.
It really is only within the last hundred years that scholors have begun a critical examination of the so called "sacred scriptures". Preveous critics were tortured and murdered by the church. Today there's mainly a lot of persecution and fear manipulation of people who dare go there.
Hebrew History from the UB:
http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper97.html
Colter |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: | Jim, why are you still quoting whole quotes of other people when you have been instructed not to do this?
| Quote: | | |
Jim, why are you still quoting whole quotes of other people when you have been instructed not to do this? |
MoJo if you look at the reply page, you will see that the part of her quote that i was trying to reply to did not come up(i do'nt understand why) so i did the best i could, bear with me please, i am doing the best i can.  |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | | Quote: | | Colter, I have never herd of the Urantia Book, thank you for bringing me up to speed.“for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." I could not find this part of your quote from Micah??? |
Yes, that's correct, it was revealed ( re-revealed) in the Urantia Book.
During the Babylonion captivity the Hebrew preists redacted and editid the entire OT creating a new story specifically for themselves, that's the reason for the obveous bias. The Jews have no secular history because the preist destroyed all of it makeing them a miraculous people. This is why the Son of God did not fit their expected Messiah, and still doesn't.
It really is only within the last hundred years that scholors have begun a critical examination of the so called "sacred scriptures". Preveous critics were tortured and murdered by the church. Today there's mainly a lot of persecution and fear manipulation of people who dare go there.
Hebrew History from the UB:
http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper97.html
Colter |
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