Trinity: Biblically supported?? I say NO WAY!!!

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561

Hi Bitterlily,
Great you have started to read the Bible itself having been hopping around various belief systems before that really don't use the Bible but a corrupted form of their own making.

Perhaps when you have actually 'read the Bible in full' and had your current conclusions 'tested / scrutinised' your opinion of the legitimacy of a trinity / the trinity doctrine will be shattered.

Cheers!

towshab · Labrador Joined: 23 Oct 2007 Posts: 312

BL,

Actually if you read the 'old testament' first and wait on the 'new testament' you'd come to realize that Christianity was created as 'Judaism Lite'. Paul the apostate wanted to take Judaism to the masses because the idea of one G-d really appealed to the Gentiles who had to worship one god for this thing, another god for another thing and so on. But Paul wasn't stupid, he knew two major things that would keep Gentiles from converting: circumcision and keeping that dreadfully long list of commandments found in the Torah.

In Acts 15 you have Paul going to the head guys in the Jewish Christian church. James was among them. If you read the book of James you will see that he opposed Paul's 'Judaism Lite'. There was really was no love loss between Peter and James and Paul.

Paul was quite accepting of James recommendations while he was among the Jewish Christians but soon thereafter he debunked what they had to say. Lets look what was said in Acts 15 first

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

'Pollution of idols' basically means eating meat that has been offered to idols. But what does Paul the apostate say later?
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1Co 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1Co 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
1Co 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
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Basically Paul is saying to abstain from eating of meat that is offered to idols only if it offends someone! This goes against what was given to him to teach in Acts 15. So Paul was the first one to encourage 'easy believism'. He knew if he offended too many pagan worship acts that he'd not be able to spread 'Judaism Lite'.

Then after Paul came the 'eyewitnesses' who wrote the gospels. To make Jesus much more appealing to the new followers of 'Judaism Lite', they threw in such pagan mythological ideas as virgin birth, angel/god in flesh incarnation, child of a god, drinking blood and eating flesh, atonement by human sacrifice, etc. Thing is, none of this stuff was ever said of the promised Messiah in Jewish scripture but that didn't stop the writers of the Christian bible. They figured that the Gentiles wouldn't know the difference and this new Jesus had a pagan flare they could dig. Son of the the Jewish one G-d with all of the other elements they knew of with other gods like Mithras, Horus, Krishna, etc.

With the destruction of the temple and other happenings in Jerusalem, Jewish Christianity fizzled. After all, it was a just another sect of Judaism to the Romans. But 'Judaism Lite', later called Christianity, had its followers.

Paul was not stupid. He created one of the world's largest religions. But I wonder if Paul ever envisioned so many different sects of Christianity, each one saying the other is a cult full of lost people?

Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Finally, remember that the apostate Paul was at least honest about being a deceitful person
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1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

In other words, Paul said he wore whatever hat was necessary to get someone to follow his new 'Judaism Lite'.

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

Good morning Bitterlilly,

Thank you so much for sharing your faith journey with me, it especially touched me and made my day.

You truly have found the presence of the "shepherds voice" as well as the "pure spirit" which God puts in all of us.

I to have had difficulty with the representation of God the Father in scripture. It wasn't until I came to understand that there is an evolution of God revealing himself to mankind, that it made more sense. In other words, I believe that the scriptures represent God as man understood him, they get better. Then we have the Father as revealed in Jesus, which is a God of justice tempered by mercy, love, and grace. It was God calling man out from the bondage of traditionalism to the realization of the personality of God the Father. If we know the personality of the Son then we come to know the personality of the Father better. The life of Jesus was mercy in the flesh.

The great mistake of finite man is that he mistaking petrifies Gods revelations, man forgets that more will be revealed. Jesus made it clear that we too can reveal God in our love for one another, although we are not God the Father, we are his children.

The religion of Jesus was all about doing the will of the Father as we find the Father in our personal human experience. Sadly, Christianity became about Jesus more then about having a personal relationship with God as you pointed out with your Catholic upbringing.

I think Jesus taught unity but not necessarily
uniformity. In the kingdom we are to have the common goal of seeking God in faith but that doesn't mean that we are all to think the same way. Religion tends to create systems of thought, creeds, formal prayers and ceremonies. They want everyone to think the same way, it's all about believing facts of the past rather then having a relationship with God personally and right now.

Thanks again for your inspiring story.

Colter

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

bitterlily · Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: trinity discussion

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561

Hi Colter,
If you call 'creeds and structure' choosing between Adam or Christ then so be it?
I see it as a simple God given Free Will choice?
Just as embracing an institution / doctrine founded upon violence and death Laws is not a healthy choice.

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

Colter
No problem, I just mean please don't act as spokesman for or expert on non-Trinitarian beliefs and I won't do so for yours. Agreed? Smile

Thanks
Steven

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

Composer,

Then please, by all means, take up your issue with the Catholic Church! I have never in my life read what the Catholic Church believes about the Trinity! Most protestant Churches that I know of concede the mystery, trust Jesus, and don't quarrel with him!

If people have been mislead to think that Jesus came down from heaven, was the Son of God incarnate in the flesh, returned to God's right hand where he is our Lord, then that misconception came from Jesus himself not the Catholic Church!

If people believe that Satan was a real, "volitional being", who mislead the whole world, that belief came from the Bible !

If people believe in Demons who talk to Jesus, that belief came from the Bible!

This guy towshab, who converted back to Judaism is right, Christianity tried to become a new form of Judaism when we should have jettisoned it altogether like the space shuttle jettison's the solid rocket boosters!

The religion of Jesus was totally different then Judaism and Christianity is very different then the religion of Jesus!

Colter

composer2005 · Fierce Wolf Joined: 14 Jul 2007 Posts: 561