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| Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? Why or why not? |
| Yes, I believe in the Trinity (and this is why..) |
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| No, I don't believe in the Trinity (and here's why) |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Scriptures from Mark mentioned in the first post of this thread:
Mark 1: 11 & 14 11 And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." 14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God.
Mark 3:35 35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (We are Jesus’ brethren, God is our Father….)
Mark 4: 11, 26, 30 11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 26 He also said, This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. 30Again he said, "What shall we say the kingdom of God is like, or what parable shall we use to describe it?
Mark 11: 22-26 22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Mark 12: 24-30 & 34 24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. 28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mark 15: 34 34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Last edited by luvnlife on Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:22 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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Verses in the book of Luke referred to in the first post on this thread:
Luke 3:38 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Luke 10:16 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Luke 12: 8 8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 18:18, 19: 18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Last edited by luvnlife on Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:25 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Verses in the book of John as referred to in the original post on this thread and some other supporting verses from other books of the bible:
John 1: 18, 29, 34 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 2:16 16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 5: 19-24 & 42-44 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. 21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
*(Does this sound like a Son or another God talking? What does the bible say? Does it say there is one God or three?
1. Malachi 2:10
Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
2. Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
3. Romans 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
4. 1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
5. Ephesians 4:6
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
6. 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
7. James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
John 6:37-40 & 57 & 65 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 7:16, 28, 29 16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
John 8:14-19 14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
..... Now can you see why I don't believe in the Trinity?
Love Luv
Last edited by luvnlife on Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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VikingMan44
Goldfish
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Don't want to start a new thread, so if yall don't mind, I'll just pile on here...
What significance does this discussion have? I mean, most (many?) believe in the idea of the trinity, three in one.
On the one hand, let's say they are right. Well, life continues and people continue interacting with God the way they always have done.
Let's say they are wrong. What does that mean? What is the purpose of pursueing this discussion? What is to be gained? What concrete changes will this new understanding imply for day to day life? I suppose a better understanding of God, but, frankly, I guess this seems like a little thing. Jesus is still the one who died for me, the Spirit is still the one who dwells in me giving me power to live as God has instructed, etc. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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If the vice president of a large company, say, a graduate from Harvard business school, was required to go down and work in the mail room, then make his way all the way up through the company to experientially achieve unquestioned leadership sovereignty of his company then all the quotes from Jesus which appear to go contrary to his divinity suddenly make sense.
Jesus taught spiritual truth, not theological doctrine, in fact Jesus is spiritual truth.
To get to the CEO of the corporation you must go through the VP, he represents the CEO, he is at one with the CEO.
"If you have seen me you have seen the Father."
"All power and authority in heaven and on earth have been given to me".
"Do you love me?, then feed my sheep"
If Jesus was not, is not divine then Houston, we have a problem!
Don't fight the Master, just trust him and do the Fathers will. 
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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For [there is] one God , and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (1 Tim. 2: 5) KJV
Read the Bible please Colter, the UB fails you! |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | If the vice president of a large company, say, a graduate from Harvard business school, was required to go down and work in the mail room, then make his way all the way up through the company to experientially achieve unquestioned leadership sovereignty of his company then all the quotes from Jesus which appear to go contrary to his divinity suddenly make sense.
Jesus taught spiritual truth, not theological doctrine, in fact Jesus is spiritual truth.
To get to the CEO of the corporation you must go through the VP, he represents the CEO, he is at one with the CEO.
"If you have seen me you have seen the Father."
"All power and authority in heaven and on earth have been given to me".
"Do you love me?, then feed my sheep"
If Jesus was not, is not divine then Houston, we have a problem!
Don't fight the Master, just trust him and do the Fathers will.
Colter |
Hi Colter,
Nice analogy. I have one I would like to share.
Just think of the Words that come out of your mouth each day. Where do those Words come from?
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. Luk 6:45
There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man. Mar 7:15
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. Mar 7:21-23
Imagine you had the power to enclose your Words in a human body and send it out to represent you with the knowledge that it can only speak and perform the words that come from your heart. What would be the result?
Chances are our Word made flesh would end up in prison for murder of many people whom our hearts have hated in our lifetimes. What would be the result if God enclosed His Word in flesh:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word was in the beginning with God. All things were made by the Word; and without the Word was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness overcame it not. Joh 1:1-5
The Word was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. The Word came to his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received The Word, to them gave The Word power to become the children of God, even to them that HAVE FAITH IN The Word's NAME - JESUS:Joh 1:10-12
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld The Word's glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Joh 1:14
Why was Jesus the only Begotten of the Father?
Because before Jesus ever had a human body, He was the Word of God, the Abundance of God's Heart, and when God spoke, Jesus came out of God's mouth.
Consider our own Words again, and how Words are pushed out of our mouth with our breath. The same is true of God except His breath is called the Holy Spirit. Try holding your breath for a few seconds while you try to talk at the same time. It is practically impossible for us to speak without letting some of our breath escape. The same is true of Jesus. It was impossible for The Word of God to come forth without the Breath of God:
....for that which is conceived in her (The Word of God) is from the Holy Breath. And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Mat 1:20-21
The Word of God, the SON could do nothing except what was in the Heart of His FATHER. In the following verses, I have replaced the word SON with the WORD OF GOD and the word FATHER with the HEART OF GOD:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The WORD OF GOD can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the HEART OF GOD do: for whatsoever things he does, these also does the WORD OF GOD likewise. For the HEART OF GOD loves the WORD OF GOD, and shows him all things that he himself does: and he will show him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the HEART OF GOD raises up the dead, and gives them life; even so the WORD OF GOD gives life to whom he will. For the HEART OF GOD judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the WORD OF GOD: That all men should honor the WORD OF GOD, even as they honor the HEART OF GOD. He that honors not the WORD OF GOD honors not the HEART OF GOD who has sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on the HEART OF GOD that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the WORD OF GOD: and they that hear shall live. For as the HEART OF GOD has life in himself; so has he given to the WORD OF GOD to have life in himself; And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of condemnation. I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the HEART OF GOD who has sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that bears witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesses of me is true. Joh 5:19-32
So the question may still remain for some, is the WORD OF GOD and the HEART OF GOD 2 separate entities or ONE?:
I and my Father are one. Joh 10:30
If you had known me, you would have known my Father also: and from henceforth you know him, and have seen him. Philip said unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it will satisfy us. Jesus said unto him, Have I been so long a time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father? Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Joh 14:7-12
All of the verses that seem to support separate entities are quickly brought into perspective when we consider the WORD and HEART of God. For example this verse:
But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels who are in heaven, neither the WORD OF GOD, but the HEART OF GOD. Mar 13:32
You have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If you loved me, you would rejoice, because I said, the WORD OF GOD goes unto the HEART OF GOD: for the HEART OF GOD is greater than the WORD OF GOD. Joh 14:28
The Word of God was returning to the Glory He had with the Heart of God from the very Beginning:
And now, O Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was. Joh 17:5
| VikingMan44 wrote: | What significance does this discussion have? I mean, most (many?) believe in the idea of the trinity, three in one.
On the one hand, let's say they are right. Well, life continues and people continue interacting with God the way they always have done.
Let's say they are wrong. What does that mean? What is the purpose of pursueing this discussion? What is to be gained? What concrete changes will this new understanding imply for day to day life? I suppose a better understanding of God, but, frankly, I guess this seems like a little thing. |
Sanctify them through your truth: YOUR WORD is truth. As you have sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth(YOUR WORD IS TRUTH). Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me. And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me. And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it: that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them. Joh 17:17-26
What was the Father's Name that Jesus declared?
HIS OWN!
Tell and bring forth your case; yea, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? who has told it from that time? have not I YEHOVAH? and there is no other God besides me; a just God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Look unto me, and be you saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, THE WORD has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Isa 45:21-23
AND HE WILL DECLARE IT AGAIN!
Therefore God also has highly exalted him(THE WORD OF GOD), and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to(INTO, TOWARD, AMONG) the glory of God the Father. Php 2:9-11
The Scriptures are not the WORD OF GOD but they are they which testify of the WORD OF GOD whose name is JESUS:
Search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And you will not come to me, that you might have life. Joh 5:39-40 |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Colter wrote: | | Therefore God also has highly exalted him(THE WORD OF GOD), and given him a name which is above every name: |
There we have it. 1. 'God highly exalted him' and a co-equal God can't 'exalt' itself higher than its inherent co-equality?
2. . . . and given him a name . . . and you can't 'give a name' to something that already literally exists or pre-existed, because it would already 'have a name?'
You appear to be claiming "God gave God a name?'
Cheers! |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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Not relevant directly, but I came across a verse in 1Clement today where the NT term "the God and Father of Jesus Christ" had had "God and" deleted to read "the xxx xxx Father of" in several Greek manuscripts. Interesting seeing as it's the oldest epistle outside the NT.....
Anyway
I would say the main reason why not would be that God cannot be born, be tempted, die, be raised, be seated at God's right hand, submit to God (1Co15:24-26) first - so it's primarily that every stage in the life death and life again of Jesus of Nazareth supports him being Son of God, and Son of Man/Adam/Mary.
The details such as John 8:40, calling God "my God" John 20:17, Rev3, or saying that God is "greater" John 14:8 (odd that John is also the non-Trinitarian's favourite Gospel!) are secondary, the main thing is the reality of the life, death and life again of Jesus and Nazareth. Unless it's an act, he is what he said (John 8:40 again).
God bless
Steven |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Hi bitterlily,
Thank you for taking the time to put that post together, it was an interesting idea.
Some thoughts came to my mind:
* Jesus wasn't the freakish robot portrayed in Hollywood movies but rather was a real person, he had human personality apart from God the Father. So using your analogy, the word was personified, yet that word spoke as if it had already been personified in eternity with the Father before this world was. My own words do not perform cohabitation with me before they become people, as people, else I would be in a state mental institution.
* Anti Trinitarians maintain that Jesus was a mere messenger, yet he still lives and with the power of a God, but they insist he's not Divine.
* This word personified as a man, but who takes on a new form in the resurrection (he is able to appear and disappear) tells us that his spirit will be present with us like the voice of a shepherd, yet doubters insist on his finite beginning in humanity.
I have another theory, God is spirit.
THE Paradise Trinity of eternal Deities facilitates the Father's escape from personality absolutism. The Trinity perfectly associates the limitless expression of God's infinite personal will with the absoluteness of Deity. The Eternal Son and the various Sons of divine origin, together with the Conjoint Actor and his universe children, effectively provide for the Father's liberation from the limitations otherwise inherent in primacy, perfection, changelessness, eternity, universality, absoluteness, and infinity.
The Paradise Trinity effectively provides for the full expression and perfect revelation of the eternal nature of Deity. The Stationary Sons of the Trinity likewise afford a full and perfect revelation of divine justice. The Trinity is Deity unity, and this unity rests eternally upon the absolute foundations of the divine oneness of the three original and co-ordinate and coexistent personalities, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit. UB
So I think God the Father (who is spirit), who exist outside of time and space delegates authority to his vast agency of celestial beings. That is why "day star" or Lucifer was able to mislead the whole world, it would also explain why he was allowed to do so.
thanks again
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Besides the overwhelming Scriptural evidence refuting the 'trinity doctrine' and the fact that even trinitarian scholars admit - (I quote) "It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (unquote) (The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral) (My BOLD) the most substantive non Biblical clinchers for me against trinitarianism, is the fact they imposed Laws (e.g.1648 & Blasphemy Statute 1698) threatening torture and ultimately the death sentence on those who would not submit to this ungodly belief system.
Cheers! |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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Heya Colter
I though we'd agreed that I wouldn't act as plenipotentiary spokesman for Urantia on this forum and that you wouldn't issue statements about what I believe? Are we still good on that?
| Colter wrote: | | * Anti Trinitarians maintain that Jesus was a mere messenger, yet he still lives and with the power of a God, but they insist he's not Divine. |
That may be the case if you are talking about a certain Mnimi Dryg, however his views aren't true of all Anti-Trinitarians, so please don't tar us all with the same brush. Thanks
For the record:
1. Paul never claimed that "Jesus was a mere messenger", in fact I cannot, off the top of my head, think of any verse with malak or aggelos refering to the Lord Jesus.
2. Please see my signature, Paul says "power of [Greek the] God" not "a God".
3. Likewise Paul did not insist that Christ was "not Divine" he insisted that "the fullness of divinity dwelt in Christ bodily". That's not the same thing.
God be with you.
Steven |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Steven3 wrote: | Heya Colter
I though we'd agreed that I wouldn't act as plenipotentiary spokesman for Urantia on this forum and that you wouldn't issue statements about what I believe? Are we still good on that?
| Colter wrote: | | * Anti Trinitarians maintain that Jesus was a mere messenger, yet he still lives and with the power of a God, but they insist he's not Divine. |
That may be the case if you are talking about a certain Mnimi Dryg, however his views aren't true of all Anti-Trinitarians, so please don't tar us all with the same brush. Thanks
For the record:
1. Paul never claimed that "Jesus was a mere messenger", in fact I cannot, off the top of my head, think of any verse with malak or aggelos refering to the Lord Jesus.
2. Please see my signature, Paul says "power of [Greek the] God" not "a God".
3. Likewise Paul did not insist that Christ was "not Divine" he insisted that "the fullness of divinity dwelt in Christ bodily". That's not the same thing.
God be with you.
Steven |
Steven,
"Plenipotentiary" ? Woe, easy there big fella, I'm an American and have no formal university education outside of Dental Technology........but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
I'm sorry that I plenipotentaired you into a misdiagnosis. The diversity of Trinitarian allergies presents classification conundrums.
I had never come across Christians who did not believe in the Trinity prior to my encounter with the Christadelphians, and now I see there are more and all have peculiarities within their positions. I will try to be more punctilious with my explication.
As paul said:"the fullness of divinity dwelt in Christ bodily".
Dwelt? Is that past tense or does the fullness of divinity still dwell in him? Having been given all power and authority in heaven and on earth combined with fullness of divinity dwelling in Christ bodily????? errrm????
Steven, did I ever give you this link as an explanation of the trinity concept of the Urantia Papers? The zero age, beginning of beginnings? It's was a work done by Saddler Jr., someone made a pictorial which explains the philosophical evolution of the Trinity, it's very well done, I think. If you have the time have a look.
http://www.satania606.com/
Colter |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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It is so good that you are now looking at the Bible anew and understanding there is a vast difference between the teachings of the many churchs and the Bible.
Is the Bible full of holes? Not where it matters. As long as you can keep your mind and heart with Him, you won't go wrong.
God Bless! |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | | * Anti Trinitarians maintain that Jesus was a mere messenger, yet he still lives and with the power of a God, but they insist he's not Divine. |
Hi Colter,
I've only now just realized the importance of what you said here and I'd have to agree with you. I don't know about all Anti Trinitarians but I have noticed that many believe that Jesus is either not divine or second in rank to the Father. Like you said, a mere messenger.
As I understand it, the Trinity gives Jesus equal status with the Father, making them co-equals and with this I would have to most definitely agree.
I was raised Catholic so my perception of the Father and Son was very separate. Jesus was Loving while the Father was full of wrath. Jesus was helpless while the Father was Almighty and Powerful. After leaving the Catholic Church at 11 years old, surprisingly the Loving Jesus was thrown out my window but the wrathful Father still abided. I honestly think this had more to do with separating my belief in God from other people so that they couldn't screw with my head anymore. So I took the Loving nature of Jesus and attached it to God while I dropped His Name. It wasn't until 12+ years later that the Holy Spirit paid me a visit and responded to the name Jesus. Before this happened I never knew that such a living and real experience of Jesus was even possible. So for a few months Jesus was all that mattered to me. However the image of the wrathful Father still lurked in the back of my mind. My first exposure to the Bible was the New Testament on tape which I listed to everyday in my walkman for a few months, until oneday the JW's came knocking and awoke that sleeping beast in me (my carnal mind that is).
The crafty thing was that they never were upfront with me about their beliefs about Jesus being the Archangel Michael. They let me believe that they loved and honoured Jesus the same way I did while telling me that I was dishonouring the Father because I was bypassing Him to go to Jesus. Only now have I just realized how clever this was, because if they had attacked Jesus in anyway I would have shut my door to them that instance. So they didn't dare do that, instead they treated me like we were on the same footing, except for the fact that they honoured the Father while I didn't even acknowledge Him. My fear of the Father is what caused me to stumble in the end. I had to confess that I had done everything to avoid Him. But thankfully the Lord sent me a dream to warn me of their devices, which was summed up in this verse:
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither allow you them that are entering to go in. Mat 23:13
The damage had already been done by this stage but at least it stopped me from joining their ranks. It was after this dream that I finally found the courage to buy a Bible and start reading it from cover to cover and the surprising thing was that the wrathful Father wasn't as scary as I had imagined Him to be. Don't get me wrong, I definitely found many of the Old Testament stories scary and the Fear of the Lord was certainly established in me, but it wasn't the same fear that I had grown up with. For me, the Son and the Father were no longer separate but One. The Spirit helped me to see and feel the Loving Son in the Old Testament Father. For example, verses like the following really stuck out to me:
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:3
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day...Gen 3:8
And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where are you? Gen 3:9
And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. Gen 6:6
I remember crying when I read this last verse for the first time. I could feel the Lord's Love and I could feel His grief. The reading of the Old Testament was one of the greatest experience of my life, because through all the doom and gloom, I could feel the Love of God behind every story even though I didn't understand why things had to happen the way they did. I was able to rest in the experiential knowledge that God is Love and in Him is no darkness and that:
...He does not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth, To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approves not. Lam 3:33-36
Many verses such as these told me that the wrathful God I had been led to believe took great delight in afflicting people for sport was not the same God of the Bible.
I know now that everything He ever did was for the survival and welfare of His Creation that He loved beyond our human comprehension.
So to summarize, if accepting the Trinity means accepting the Father and Son as the One and Same Spirit that Created Us, Loved Us and came to earth in a body to save Us from our Sins so that we could have an abundant Life in Him, then I would have to say I not only believe in the Trinity, I love the Trinity!
Before I go I wanna share a song that I have loved from the moment I first heard it. I feel it is the best representative of what I believe:
ONE AND THE SAME - by Cece Winans
How shall I begin
To speak about a God that I can never comprehend
So High and Mighty
And yet closer than a friend
The beginning and the end
The mystery of his Holiness
The wonders of His humanness are
One,one and the same
I can't do Him Justice with anyone name
The Holy God of Heaven
And the humble Man who bore my shame
Are one, one and the same
I scarcely understand
How a simple servant can be called the great I Am
How the Son of God
Is still the Son of man
Both the Shepherd and the Lamb
The healer and the Wounded One
The Father and the only Son are
One,one and the same
I can't do Him Justice with anyone name
The Holy God of Heaven
And the humble Man who bore my shame
Are one, one and the same
The way that we can come to know
The truth that sets us free
The Life that died and rose again
Love revealed
Prince of Peace
Wonderful !
First and the Last
Oh, Holy Ghost
Hallelujah
Heaven
Hallelujah
And the Humble man who bore my shame
Are one, one and the same
Are one
One and the same
Lots of Love
Bitterlily |
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