IN THE BEGINNING, GOD CREATED.

VCO · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 178

Earlier Colter had asked me: "then God created the world in it's present state to appear as if it evolved, making it look like it is quite old. Why? to trick us?" My reply was that "it was not a trick, but a test." It is a test of our Faith in particular. The following verses came up in the Sermon at Church today, and my thoughts instantly were: "WOW, does that fit our discussion or what!"

Hebrews 11:1-3 (HCSB)
1 Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.
2 For by it our ancestors were approved.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen has been made from things that are not visible.

Biblical Creation is: God spoke everything into existence, and everything was Created from nothing visable.

Evolution is: Everything evolved from other things that are visable.

It seems to me, that if you believe in Evolution, you may want to take a razor blade and cut Heb. 11:1 and Heb. 11:3 out of your bibles.

It truly is a test of our Faith:

Do we want to believe God,

or

Do we choose to believe that the intelligence of man is greater than the Power of God.

Galatians 3:6 (ISV)
6 In the same way, Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
_________________
Titus 2:13
VCO

FFT

The Barbarian · Hamster Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 85

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

VCO and Forum,

I've posted a link to Dr. Roger C. Wiens in depth article on radiometric dating techniques. Dr. Wiens is a Bible believing Christian however he is quick to point out that a literal interpretation of Genesis as concerns dating the age of the earth is flawed. Genesis gives no specific dating of the earth.

I'm acquainted with the conclusions of Dr. Wiens research at Caltech and would recommend a close study of his conclusions before any further discussion.

Jesus warned us about hiding our talents under a rock and failing to produce a return by way of continually updating the gospel as his "Rock of ages" has no quarrel with the ages of rocks. Jesus made no scientific statements nor did he quarrel with politics. Christianity has betrayed Christ by delving into both.

Urantia Revelation:

"Logic is the technique of philosophy, its method of expression. Within the domain of true science, reason is always amenable to genuine logic; within the domain of true religion, faith is always logical from the basis of an inner viewpoint, even though such faith may appear to be quite unfounded from the inlooking viewpoint of the scientific approach. From outward, looking within, the universe may appear to be material; from within, looking out, the same universe appears to be wholly spiritual. Reason grows out of material awareness, faith out of spiritual awareness, but through the mediation of a philosophy strengthened by revelation, logic may confirm both the inward and the outward view, thereby effecting the stabilization of both science and religion. Thus, through common contact with the logic of philosophy, may both science and religion become increasingly tolerant of each other, less and less skeptical.

What both developing science and religion need is more searching and fearless self-criticism, a greater awareness of incompleteness in evolutionary status. The teachers of both science and religion are often altogether too self-confident and dogmatic. Science and religion can only be self-critical of their facts. The moment departure is made from the stage of facts, reason abdicates or else rapidly degenerates into a consort of false logic."

"Intellectual deficiency or educational poverty unavoidably handicaps higher religious attainment because such an impoverished environment of the spiritual nature robs religion of its chief channel of philosophic contact with the world of scientific knowledge. The intellectual factors of religion are important, but their overdevelopment is likewise sometimes very handicapping and embarrassing. Religion must continually labor under a paradoxical necessity: the necessity of making effective use of thought while at the same time discounting the spiritual serviceableness of all thinking."

Radiometric Dating

A Christian Perspective

Dr. Roger C. Wiens

http://www.asa3.org/aSA/resources/Wiens.html

Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God."

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:40 am Post subject:

You are an artist. You want to make a masterpiece formed from a lump of clay. You have a "vision" in your mind of what that perfect masterpiece will look like when "it is finished".

The lump of clay is not the masterpiece..but what the clay becomes...IS.

The perfection is in your mind and your hands perform the duty of making that masterpiece a reality.

no, no, no...that's not the right shape...
I need to take a little here and a little there and make it look like so...

molding, adjusting, fixing, changing..evolving...into that perfect masterpiece.

That was in the beginning and will be in the end...

Very Happy

_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

VCO · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 178

How about this Article:

THE COOLING OF THICK IGNEOUS BODIES ON A YOUNG EARTH

One of the persistent scientific objections to the Earth being young (6,000-7,000 years old rather than 4.55 billion years), and the Flood being a year-long, global event, has been the apparent evidence that large plutons of granitic and other igneous intrusive rocks found today at the Earth's surface necessarily required millions of years to cool from magmas. The purpose of this work is to examine critically this oft-quoted assumption.

. . . However, most recent estimates of these time-spans are inflated, as they are based not solely on presumed cooling rates, but primarily on radiometric dating determinations and other uniformitarian assumptions.

. . . Therefore, the role of water in melting processes (collecting and segregation of melts), migration of melts, and crystallization of magmas is fundamental.

. . . Thus if there has been a relatively fast pressure release due to rapid ascent and emplacement of the granitic magma, even if initially water-undersaturated at depth, fast crystallization will occur, and, once water saturation is reached, excess water may be released.

. . .

http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_as_igneousbodies/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now how many other Scientific Theories take into consideration the effect on the granite magma that massive amounts of water rising to the surface rapidly in the Biblical FLOOD would have? ALMOST NONE, because they do not want to believe in the FLOOD either.

2 Peter 3:3-6 (ISV)
3 First of all you must understand this: In the last days mockers will come and, indulging in their own lusts, will ridicule us
4 by saying, "What happened to his promise to return? Ever since our ancestors died, everything continues as it did from the beginning of creation."
5 But they deliberately ignore the fact that long ago the heavens existed and the earth was formed by God's word out of water and with water,
6 by which the world at that time was deluged with water and destroyed.

Genesis 7:11-12 (NKJV)
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Genesis 7:17-24 (NKJV)
17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
18 The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.
20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.
24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.
_________________
Titus 2:13
VCO

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:07 am Post subject:

Ok,
how about...

Jesus chose out 12 stones to build the foundation of the new world on.
The heavens are his thoughts and the earth is his body.
And God created everything in the earth...US.
And God saw that it was good.

Before Jesus came and began building the new heavens and the new earth...it was void and empty and darkness (no understanding) covered the face of the earth.

There is the world that was before Noah...the present world in which Moses led the people, and the present world we have today.

The Old world, the world that is, and the world that will be..which is to day.

I'm not fully convinced that the bible is concerned so much about the material creation of the world, as it is concerned with the spiritual nature of man.

just sharin some thoughts..

Hugs
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

eleven · Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject:

eleven · Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject:

To tell ya the truth, I will never understand why there is such a hot debate between creationists, and evolutionist.
It simply cannot be just one or the other.

To study a human brain and to honestly believe that the brain "evolved" from a bunch of randomly floating carbon molecules is simply ridiculous. They just "found" each other? C'mon....
That may explain some physical aspects (uh, maybe) but what about things like "soul" and "conscious" not to mention love and curiousity. That's all random too? It would actually take worlds more faith to believe completely in evolutionist theory than it would to know we are here by intelligent design.

As far as dating the planet is concerned, what is the reference point? We can only measure time by what humans determine the meaning of time to be at any particular moment. Geez........I still need a table to figure out what time it is in California. Rolling Eyes

I think Einstein said it best:
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

FFT · Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject:

eleven · Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:52 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

FFT · Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:02 am Post subject:

eleven · Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

eleven · Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:15 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote: