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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: WI USA
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | So, does that thought destroy the other Bible verses quoted ?
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Why would it have to destroy them? So, do the verses you quoted destroy the parable of the wheat and the tares? That seems to be what you're telling me.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | Yes to obey is to live......disobey, and die.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? |
This response is not in any way addressing my point. But as I said, I was expecting regurgitation of doctrine of men and misapplied scripture.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Maybe it is because they don't understand what the Bible says, about God's 'Investigative' Judgment. |
Gentle reader, please refer to any of the posts on this board or the Viewpoints board on the "Investigative Judgement" for more info on it's absense in scripture, the misapplication of a passage in Peter's epistle, and an alleged tradition in the old testament day of atonement taught by Adventism but never mentioned in scripture which serve as the basis of this Adventist doctrine.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | I wrote: | | when the wicked are actually destroyed, the righteous will be gone and our planet will be burnt to a crisp? |
Did you forget the 1000 years, where the earth is at rest, before the earth becomes a Lake of Fire ?
(Revelation 20) |
This is interesting. Could you elaborate on this, brother Surfer? One of your Adventist friends on this board tells me that the destruction of the earth by fire occurs at the beginning of the 1000 years, not the end, as you seem to be saying. He tells me that the earth will then remain a desolate and burnt cinder for 1000 years. And then according to your Adventist friend, the Lord will restore the earth to habitable condition just so He can resurrect not the righteous, but the wicked, just to they can continue their wicked lives, gather in great armies against Him, and fulfill the prophecy of the war of Gog and Magog after the 1000 years. Then after this the earth will apparently be destroyed again and the new earth created.
Would you care to comment? IS that the teaching of Adventism?
| Silver Surfer wrote: | Yes, and who are the Righteous ?
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
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I'm sorry. This again is missing my point widely, and instead reciting more Adventist mantras.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | Maybe it is because the Bible says so ?
2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. |
Ah yes!! Back to what I asked you about above, concerning the 1000 years and the destruction of the world. Peter says this day in which the earth is burned up iis the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night". Everywhere else in scripture where this day is referred to, it is always the day in which Jesus returns. Of course, most teach that Jesus returns before the 1000 years. Your Adventist friend who I asked about this agreed, and this is why he claimed the earth is destroyed before the 1000 years, remains so for the 1000 years (though I would wonder what the righteous are then reigning over), and things start up again after the 1000 years with Satan being release to deceive the nations of the earth, who are apparently all brought back to life after the 1000 years.
The way Peter words that passage, it would have to be so, would it not? Otherwise, if the day in which the earth passes away in fire is after the 1000 years, and is also the day of the Lord that is coming as a thief in the night, you would have to be telling me that the return of Jesus Christ is not until after the 1000 years! Is this what you are saying?
What say you, Silver Surfer? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: |
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earth..earthy..earth passes away..
we walk in the spirit not according to the flesh.flesh earthy..
And when the flesh is judged by the spirit of the word..the word of fire..we are judged in the flesh. and the desires of the flesh are burned up and we no longer walk in the lusts thereof.
so what is new earth...flesh that has no sin in it?
behold all things have become new and the old is passed away...what passes away..our lusts and flesh desires?
Our carnal earthy mind and bodies replaced with those that walk in the spirit?
Pride greed hate..these we have put off and put on the new man..the new earth..hmm..
diggin |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2437
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | So, does that thought destroy the other Bible verses quoted ?
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Why would it have to destroy them? So, do the verses you quoted destroy the parable of the wheat and the tares? That seems to be what you're telling me. |
No, you must blend everything mentioning Christ's return, together.
The parable about the wheat and the tares do not stand by themselves....if, they seem to contradict other Bible verses.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | Yes to obey is to live......disobey, and die.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? |
| Quote: | | This response is not in any way addressing my point. But as I said, I was expecting regurgitation of doctrine of men and misapplied scripture. |
I do not neglect Scriptures which are the basis of the Gospel message.
There are certain Biblical principles, that must be kept in mind, at all times !
Romans 6:16 applied to Adam & Eve's case.
It applies to each and every person who ever claims to be followers of God.
Obedience, is the be-all, end-all factor, in gaining eternal life.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Maybe it is because they don't understand what the Bible says, about God's 'Investigative' Judgment. |
Gentle reader, please refer to any of the posts on this board or the Viewpoints board on the "Investigative Judgement" for more info on it's absense in scripture, the misapplication of a passage in Peter's epistle, and an alleged tradition in the old testament day of atonement taught by Adventism but never mentioned in scripture which serve as the basis of this Adventist doctrine.[/quote]Then you reject......
# 1.) 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?
# 2.) Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
QUESTION: You mean to tell me you cannot see that Judgment comes before....Jesus Christ returns to this earth ? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | No, you must blend everything mentioning Christ's return, together.
The parable about the wheat and the tares do not stand by themselves....if, they seem to contradict other Bible verses. |
Thankyou for a straightforward, direct answer. I agree that taking all verses into consideration is a better approach than ignoring or trying to negate the ones that do not fit our doctrine.
But let me offer you this: If there is a way of understanding them that does not present any seeming contradictions, would it not be wise to check it out more throughly before calling it false teaching?
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | QUESTION: You mean to tell me you cannot see that Judgment comes before....Jesus Christ returns to this earth ? |
Of course. Peter wrote that it had already begun at the time he wrote his epistle. And that was before the parousia of Christ. But then at the parousia, which coincided with the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem, the scriptures that speak of Christ and his angels taking vengeance on the wicked in flaming fire were fulfilled. So judgement came at the coming of Christ too.
You should know this. You posted a very informative article on Jerusalem's fall in 70AD yourself.
Now I have a question, or a request: I'd like to hear your response to the questions I posed concerning the order of the following events: the return of Christ, the destruction of the earth in fire, and the 1000 years. It may be a bit off the topic of this thread. Maybe you could start a thread, with an organized and thorough explanation of how you understand 2 Peter 3, Rev 20, and other passages that relate to the topic, with what order the events happen in, and how far apart in time they are from each other. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2437
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | No, you must blend everything mentioning Christ's return, together.
The parable about the wheat and the tares do not stand by themselves....if, they seem to contradict other Bible verses. |
Thankyou for a straightforward, direct answer. I agree that taking all verses into consideration is a better approach than ignoring or trying to negate the ones that do not fit our doctrine.
But let me offer you this: If there is a way of understanding them that does not present any seeming contradictions, would it not be wise to check it out more throughly before calling it false teaching? |
False doctrines are a dime a dozen.
That is why God raises up messengers...to correct errors.
YET, God messengers are most often ignore or flat out rejected.
WHY ?
Because the people don't want Bible truth, they want a sense of security, without the fouindation of Bible truth.
| Quote: |
Now I have a question, or a request: I'd like to hear your response to the questions I posed concerning the order of the following events: |
OK. | Quote: |
the return of Christ, |
At the end of the Mark of the Beast scenerio, called the Great Tribulation period. | Quote: |
the destruction of the earth in fire, |
After the 1000 years.
| Quote: |
and the 1000 years. |
After Christ gathers the church, to take them to heaven for 1000 years....a time where the saved will go over the record books, to judge angels (satan & the other angels that rebelled with him), and our friends, and our family members that didn't make it.
| Quote: |
It may be a bit off the topic of this thread. Maybe you could start a thread, with an organized and thorough explanation of how you understand 2 Peter 3, Rev 20, and other passages that relate to the topic, with what order the events happen in, and how far apart in time they are from each other. |
I think that that would be a good idea, thanks. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | False doctrines are a dime a dozen.
That is why God raises up messengers...to correct errors.
YET, God messengers are most often ignore or flat out rejected.
WHY ?
Because the people don't want Bible truth, they want a sense of security, without the fouindation of Bible truth. |
So, you're content to deal with a tangle of seeming contradictory passages in the Bible. Very well, suit yourself. I suppose after so long, one grows comfortable with the way things have always been.
Have you considered that the real reason these "messengers" you talk about are ignored and rejected is precisely because all they seem to want to do is correct everyone's errors? Do you believe God raises up messengers to be know-it-alls, and holier-than-thou?
And when such "messengers" will not consider anyone else's input, as though they think everyone but they are totally ignorant, yet these "messengers" not only cannot back up their own claims with scripture, but flat out admit they see things that seem to contradict their teaching in God's Word, are you suprised their message is not received? |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2437
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | False doctrines are a dime a dozen.
That is why God raises up messengers...to correct errors.
YET, God messengers are most often ignore or flat out rejected.
WHY ?
Because the people don't want Bible truth, they want a sense of security, without the fouindation of Bible truth. |
So, you're content to deal with a tangle of seeming contradictory passages in the Bible. Very well, suit yourself. I suppose after so long, one grows comfortable with the way things have always been. |
Why argue with God ?
He is ALWAYS right !
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Have you considered that the real reason these "messengers" you talk about are ignored and rejected is precisely because all they seem to want to do is correct everyone's errors? |
The Bible decribes man's basic nature.....
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
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Do you believe God raises up messengers to be know-it-alls, and holier-than-thou? |
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
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And when such "messengers" will not consider anyone else's input, |
And, just who is wiser than God ?
| Quote: | | as though they think everyone but they are totally ignorant, yet these "messengers" not only cannot back up their own claims with scripture, |
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God,....."
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but flat out admit they see things that seem to contradict their teaching in God's Word, are you suprised their message is not received? |
Those who reject God's messengers, reject God !
NO ONE gets into heaven, while being disobedient to God's will.
This life we now live, here on this earth is the time of probation....to see who will obey God in every single detail, especailly when they don't understand the reasons why they are required to do as they are asked.
And, that is why Abrahm was called the 'father of the faithful'.
He DID what was asked of him, even when he did not understand why, and did NOT want to do what was asked of him.
He obeyed God, totally. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Abraham...what an awesom guy huh?
He's looking at Sodom and Gomorah over the Lord's shoulder. He knows how wicked these people are. You would think that like Jonah Abraham would want him to destroy them all...
But look, Abraham took it upon himself to speak for all those who were evil in those cities..
Lord if you find just 10 will you spare them.
And the Lord said for 10 he would.
But alas, he only found one..Lot.
And only Lot escaped, just like only Noah escaped.
But because of their faith we are where we are today.
| Quote: | Why argue with God ?
He is ALWAYS right ! |
God says..let's reason together..looks like that's what Abraham did..and won one soul..
| Quote: | And, that is why Abrahm was called the 'father of the faithful'.
He DID what was asked of him, even when he did not understand why, and did NOT want to do what was asked of him.
He obeyed God, totally. |
Maybe Abraham didn't really want to plead for those wicked people either..but he did..  |
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Ben Chalfant
German Shepherd
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have read a considerable amount of posts in this thread. I read Mark 13, thought about it, and now I have one question to ask. Regardless of whether you Zathuras, are correct, or not correct, do you really want to risk not being ready when Jesus returns? What if you are wrong? What if there is a judgement waiting? Don't you want to know the truth, so that when it comes, you are ready? Don't you care about others? To warn them of the coming judgment that will surely befall them if they do not believe?
God Bless you! |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | I have read a considerable amount of posts in this thread. I read Mark 13, thought about it, and now I have one question to ask. Regardless of whether you Zathuras, are correct, or not correct, do you really want to risk not being ready when Jesus returns? What if you are wrong? What if there is a judgement waiting? |
Thankyou for reading and thinking about it. Sounds like you have a little more than one question to ask.
I am uncertain how you would think I would be unready if the return of Jesus Christ were as modern evangelicals teach it, and is yet to come. I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, Savior, the Son of God, crucified to bear my sins, and risen victorious over death the 3rd day. Is there more required?
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | Don't you want to know the truth, so that when it comes, you are ready? Don't you care about others? To warn them of the coming judgment that will surely befall them if they do not believe? |
Ben, stop and think here. If I didn't want to know the truth, would I bother looking at Mark 13 and other Bible passages as closely as I do? Would I bother taking a position that is contrary to the one most of evangelical Christianity holds concerning prophecy and the coming of Christ? If I didn't want to know the truth, wouldn't I rather just blindly accept what some TV preacher teaches and never check for myself?
I hate to answer your questions with questions, but I totally do not see where you are getting that I do not want to know the truth. If the truth is not coming, but has come, I darn well want to know. If it were yet to come, I'd wanna know that too. This brings up a point. Some challenge me on my beliefs in fulfilled eschatology solely on the basis that it takes away the future utopian paradise and awful judgement that they look forward to. What if that's just not the truth? Who's not wanting to see the truth, regardless what it is? I've arrived at my viewpoint from honest study of the scriptures and a hunger for God's truth. You err when ascribing motives to me that you can't back up either from knowing me personally, from scripture, or even from common sense.
I also have no idea how you conclude that I don't care about people. Doing one's homework in studying the Bible, and arriving at an eschatology that has God's restoring the broken fellowship between Him and man by the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, and the transition from the age of sin death to this glorious new covneant of grace and peace being the fulfillment of all that the prophets foretold does not equate to not caring about people.
Thanks again for reading and for giving some thought. I hope that you will take time to give further thought. |
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Ben Chalfant
German Shepherd
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | If I didn't want to know the truth, wouldn't I rather just blindly accept what some TV preacher teaches and never check for myself? |
I have to agree with you on this statement, Zathrus. A good example of this would be to base your salvation and what you believe to be the truth on Benny Hinn, a well known Television preacher. Benny Hinn, as you probably know, believes in 9 seperate entities in the God head. Rediculous! I have no intention on listening to a man that only cares about how much money I'm willing to donate. I want to put emphasis on the fact that I believe only in what my bible is telling me, and what my pastor, who preaches from that same bible, says to me.
In all of His mercy, and love for His people, he created a place for us to go. For those that were righteous in His sight, a wonderous place, made as a gift for our obediance. Unfortunately, many people are full of sin, and sin cannot enter there. So God had to make a place readily available for sin. Originally created for Lucifer and his followers, hell is the garbage dump of the spiritual world. If you are not saved, you cannot escape the judgement. This world is evil, and corrupt. How then can you believe, that God does not want to judge it? This world deserves judgement. It is horribly evil. There is much sin on this planet. Abortion, murder, fornication, extortion, etc. The list is endless. There has to be an end. Don't you believe that God is angry? Or perhaps sad? I think on these things, and I am also angered, and saddened. Our Lord and God died for our sins on the cross, and yet so many people reject Him. It is as if he died for them for nothing. If you wish to believe that there is no end, that is your right. But I am watching, and waiting for the coming of the Lord.
God Bless you! |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2437
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ben Chalfant wrote: | But I am watching, and waiting for the coming of the Lord.
God Bless you! |
Are you aware that Jesus Christ is coming for those who keep all God's commandments, thru the same faith Jesus Christ had Himself ?
The Mark of the Beast scenerio will opposed to the commandments of God (Revelation chapter 13 & 14).
God's people will be keeping every one of them, thru their love for Jesus Christ. |
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Ben Chalfant
German Shepherd
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Are you aware that Jesus Christ is coming for those who keep all God's commandments, thru the same faith Jesus Christ had Himself ? |
Are you aware that there is more to it than that? Peter preached salvation in the book of Acts. I can't understand for the life of me why people keep missing it. Maybe they prefer their easy-believism. Accept Christ into your heart for salvation, and all that. Accepting Jesus is a good start, but repentance and remission of sins is required. Sin cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and so we are required to be cleansed. After remission of sins, and water baptism in the name of Jesus, God is then ready to fill our new temple(body) with his precious spirit. When you receive the Holy Ghost, God speaks through you(tongues)letting unbelievers and believers alike know that you are in fact saved by grace. God is truly merciful, and is offering this gift of salvation to all who want it. Jesus is coming back for a church that is filled with the Holy Ghost, and has been baptized in Jesus' name. We must be watchful, the bible tells us that He will come as a thief in the night. Do what my pastor would tell you. Pray and ask God to help you see the Truth. Ask Him to show you, so that you aren't deceived.
Before any of you asks, no, you do not have to go to my church, nor do you have to be in my organization to be saved. You only have to follow what the bible tells you. If God saves you, and you live for him, you will inherit the kingdom of heaven. I apologize if this post is getting long, but I have one more point I would like to add. It is very important that you have a church. You need a pastor, and other people like you who can encourage, teach, and correct you.
God Bless you! |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: |
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1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2046
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | I have to agree with you on this statement, Zathrus. A good example of this would be to base your salvation and what you believe to be the truth on Benny Hinn... |
Ben, I'm not sure you're completely getting my point. I used "some TV preacher" only as an example. My point is if I were not interested in the truth as you claim I am not, I would not bother to seek it out in the scripture. I would adopt beliefs that appealed to me, whether from a TV preacher, a pastor, a book, or wherever, and never search to see if they are true.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | For those that were righteous in His sight, a wonderous place, made as a gift for our obediance. |
If it is a gift for our obedience (I presume by that you mean upright conduct, meeting God's requirement, so forth), then it is not a gift is it? Romans 4 | Quote: | 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. |
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | This world is evil, and corrupt. How then can you believe, that God does not want to judge it? |
Are you perfect, Ben? If not, God should judge you too, or He would not be just.
Do you believe God won't judge you? If so, on what basis, seeing you believe God must judge the world for its evil?
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | This world deserves judgement. It is horribly evil. There is much sin on this planet. Abortion, murder, fornication, extortion, etc. The list is endless. |
If you've never sinned, by all means throw that stone.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | Don't you believe that God is angry? Or perhaps sad? I think on these things, and I am also angered, and saddened. |
God created all things and said "It is good". Through the redemptive work of Christ He has restored fellowship with man and reconciled all things to Himself. His justice is satisfied. What would He still be angry about? And if He is, wouldn't it mean Christ's redemptive work was insufficient? Wouldn't God owe Jesus an apology for sending Him to die for our sins, and yet He still is angry?
Ben, I sense that this thread may soon become very interesting indeed. Your belief that you have done all that God requires to prepare your soul to meet Him is about to be questioned. Not by me. I have no doubt you are saved, sanctified, filled with God's Spirit, washed in the blood, and righteous before God.
What day of the week do you attend church, Ben? And why?
And brother Surfer, when you were baptized, did the preacher say "I baptize you in the name of Jesus"? Or did he say the words "...in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit"?
Brother Surfer, have you spoken with other tongues as evidence of your being filled with God's Spirit, and therefore of your having believed unto salvation?
Brother Surfer, do you believe the Godhead is a trinity or is there only One?
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