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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Thanks lone-traveler, you seem to be confusing LORD and Lord
David explains the difference between Christ the Lord and his God the LORD - A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (Psalm 110: 1) KJV
Cheers! |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thankyou composer, for your patience.. 
He sure did make all his enemies his footstool. Even death...
Hugs
Lone |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Hi again and thanks for the conversation.
Do you now understand that Christ died but God didn't so Christ isn't God?
If Jesus were God then the sacrifice of a blob of worthless flesh / grass to a God is nothing. It is only because Christ was entirely human (although begotten as opposed to normal sexual intercourse) that his temporary sacrifice was meaningful. Temporary because he was rewarded for his efforts and sacrifice.
Regards |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | Colter wrote: | | Jesus never taught original sin . . . |
The Scriptures say he did. (Rom. 3:23, 5:12, Heb. 7:27) KJV
| Colter wrote: | | . . . nor did he ever teach that his death was some barbaric sacrifice. |
Precisely my point.
trinitarians degrade Christ's sacrifice including his personal sacrifice 'first for his own sins and then for the people's' (Heb. 7:27) KJV to a barbaric act where a God requires the sacrificial blood of itself as a sacrifice to itself?
The trinity is sick! |
Composer,
I notice that you quote Paul often but not Jesus himself. Pauls letters were just opinions like any other preacher. We now know that Paul was partial to his Mithraic background. The atonement doctrine is a primitive cary over from the tribal sacrifices of Judaism. Sacrifices have no place in the gospel of Christ.
Degrade the sacrifice of Christ? To the contrary, I have gratitude for the cross's real meaning of shared human experience, it was an act of love. But selfish man, who is accustomed to blaming others for his difficulties in life looks at the cross and say's, "oh, I get it, that's for my sin". 
Atonmentarians argue that the death of an innocent and beautiful man was required to open the pathway for forgiveness, even while Jesus dieing on the cross asks his Father to forgive those committing the crime.
God was already forgiving in Christ's ministry and many had already repented and personally experienced forgiveness. Jesus taught of a faith based personal relationship with God.
We have gotten off topic again so lets's chill out on the Trinitarian thing here.
Thanks
Colter |
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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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C2005,
Thanks for clearing that up. It looked like you were saying that he indeed sinned, not that he had the ability to sin. Scripture is quite clear that he was able to be tempted as we are, but he overcame. I think most saw your posts the same way I did. Thanks for clearing it up. I agree with you now  . |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Exd 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
The sin of MAN, and the Man of SIN.
Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart [is] not with thee.
1Cr 13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Cr 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Cr 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Cr 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
The temptation for every man is in the thoughts of his heart.
The sin is hate and hate is evil.
The Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do.
The Day of the Lord is a day of great darkness and destruction. Who shall abide it?
And Man got fed the information that they believing that they could rule the world began in evil to control the whole world, in darkness and no Love in it.
They were taught Who to love, when to love, and how to punish those who do not love, without mercy, without compassion, without forgiveness.
The temptation in the wilderness with Satan is the same temptation every man faces...to be evil in ones heart and to think evil thoughts about eachother.
To be tempted with thoughts of controlling every circumstance through greedy hunger (turn these stones into bread), through pride (cast thyself down and angels shall catch thee), and through the riches and authority over the world (all these will I give if you bow down and worship me).
Jesus rebuked the urge to complete the acts of his thoughts by submitting to Love.
(Thou shalt Love)
He was angry and sinned Not..
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jesus because he had concieved it, because he had thought it, was bound by the Law of God..the Law of Love to cast himself down by allowing that evil thought to die. The bread his parents raised him on in the temple of Jerusalem..the leaven and the doctines of men.
That evil thought was in his flesh..the lusts of the flesh are the lusts of the devil are the lusts of our thoughts which are brought forth...delivered as a child..and born in the fruit of our works.
Jesus did however turn stones(the laws of men) into bread (the Law of God).
And Jesus was raised up when he cast himself down..and this is the commandment His Father gave him..that he would lay his life down and take it up again.
That Life is Love that he gave for every man and which every man recieves when they are born. He laid it down for all of us to be able to cross over that river Jordan..He IS the bridge to paradise, to the promised land.
The Ark of the covenant, The door which leads to Love, which Is the tree of Life.
He is also the Authority of all things whether in heaven or in earth, and shares this authority with those who follow him. And allows us to be seated in his throne of Glory with Him.
So Satan didn't lie..but it was twisted. We can do things out of and in Hate or we can do things out of and in Love, it depends on how we let our conscience guide us.
(Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin(HATE) unto death, or of obedience(LOVE) unto righteousness?)
Jesus' Father Love is much greater than "our father" hate.
(ye are of your father the devil..and the lusts of our father ye do)
When God who is Love created man, He knew no evil until the woman which God gave him, taught him how to eat that which was both good and evil.
That woman is his spirit, his conscience, his helpmeet, to help direct his ways and help lead on the paths of life.
Woman (conscience, seared with a HOT IRON)took a back seat to walking beside her man because she submitted herself to her own lustful thoughts, and dragged man down with her...
The woman who lurks in the corners of the dark streets, waiting for the simple to pass by..is our thoughts of adultery we commit to God when we live according to our "desires of lust or of no consideration of the pain or consequences we may be causing someone else" rather than our husband of Love, and loving our neighbours and doing unto others as we would have done to us.
Being taught by man..the doctrines of men.
Luk 2:41 ¶ Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
Luk 2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not [of it].
Luk 2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among [their] kinsfolk and acquaintance.
Luk 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. As Jonah sitting in the belly of the whale..
bloated, fat...)
Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. (Nineveh shall rise)
Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
He was being fed with the doctrines and teachings of men, which taught men to be judgmental, unmerciful, murderers, liars...Hateful, spiteful...and taking the life of innocence for their own gain...
(the passover is a festival where they kill innocent lambs for their own sins)...someone just wrote about if a man kill an animal it will be paid back life for life..
They were not obeying God out of the Love of their hearts or even considering the mercy of the lamb for giving itself for their sins...it was about the money exchangers and the merchandising..the loss of compassion and the unthankfulness, that I believe made Jesus angry in the temple..which is a place of prayer and not created for a den of theives. (Is not easily provoked)
Love brings life and Hate brings death and destruction.
There is no love in hate. Where there is no love, there is no faith in love, and so there is only death in both love and faith in love.
Jhn 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world (hate) cometh, and hath nothing (no place) in me (love).
The Dragon is the evil which the Lord had thought in his heart to do unto his people. It is also the evil that the people were thinking in their hearts. It is the whole mindset of the ways of the world, how we are taught and what we teach our children. Michael is the Love and Faith which bound him(hate) with chains and cast the evil from his and our hearts away...into utter darkness, when we heard, and we saw, and when we first believed.
Luk 2:39 ¶ And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
conflicting messages:
Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
How someone who is conflicted appears:
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household?
Mat 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
Jesus was born under the law and bound to keep the law as it was taught by those who were in the position of authority to teach...as Moses was.
Jesus broke those laws of men and kept the law of God in his heart.
Even while tempted to be the authority which would rule over them.
1Cr 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and [in] the spirit of meekness?
The rod to those who do evil and Love to those who do good, yet even the rod is used in love to make those who do evil turn from their wicked ways.
Howbeit he recieved the reward of all authority over all mankind both dead to faith and alive to God, because he gave his own life as THE lamb for all the evil sins of the world.
When we die to the evil, hateful thoughts within ourselves, we are risen again in the Love that Christ had for us. He overcame hatred with love...and so IS the perfect man which we are to strive for in ourselves.
By his faith and by his example for us, otherwise there would have never been hope for a "better way" to achieve the promises of Life that God gave to man for obeying Him.
And we, when we die and we are born again, into the knowledge and faith and hope of love in us, then we have also become the son's of God...The Sons of Love, Adopted by Love to the stature of The perfect man of Christ in US.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him (TRUTH, MERCY,FAITH) to them gave he power (OF FORGIVENESS) to become the sons of God (LOVE), [even] to them that believe on his name: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God (LOVE), they are the sons of God (LOVE).
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son (TRUTH< MERCY<FAITH) into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. By the GRACE of LOVE And the POWER of Forgiveness.
Phl 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jo 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
They did Not know LOVE...LIFE..only Hate and death.
The ultimate goal is for the whole world to come to the knowledge and faith and hope in God which is love and truth and mercy.
So what will we look like in the resurrection?
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And we are his witnesses...
A world where there are no tears, no sorrow, no pain, forgiveness, mercy, love..a perfect world where Love Reigns Over Under and In all.
And who is Christ?
He is the man who was sent to be the King of the Jews and to rule with a rod of IRON.
But he repented and overcame the thoughts in his heart, through forgiveness for all mankind and became the King of kings and Lord of lords ruling with the Staff of Love.
Father..(LOVE) forgive them..(HATE)..for they know not what they do...
So Jesus is both fully man in that he was tempted to live and rule in a world of hate...And yet fully God because he overcame with the Love of the Father which was in his heart and mind and soul from the beginning.
Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
In the beginning was the word.....and this is the commandment...that ye love one another.
Thou shalt LOVE the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart and mind and soul...and these three AGREE in one.
Thou shalt have no other God before me..(LOVE).
Thou shalt no make unto yourselves idols to bow down and worship them..(Men of Hate and Greed and No Knowledge of God (LOVE).
Thou shalt honour the Sabbath Day (THE SON) and keep it holy..(PURE TRUTH< PURE MERCY< PURE FAITH).
For we REST IN HIM.
Thou shalt honour Thy FATHER (LOVE) and thy Mother (GRACE) so that ye may live long and prosperous upon the earth.
Thou shalt LOVE thy Neighbour as thyself...as a SON of GOD..with truth mercy forgiveness kindness and in peace with all mankind.
Love in your Heart..Love in your Mind..and Love in your Body...which is also the Church of God.
And to Love thy neighbour...which are those who are in the world..as we were..without respect of persons..As thyself.
For God so Loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son..(The only child who knew the Love and Truth of the Father) that whosever believes in him..
His Faith, His Mercy, His Love, His Peace...shall be saved.
Recieve sight, recieve hearing, recieve knowledge of the One true God...
And this IS eternal Life..to Know the Father and the Son.
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
Have YOU been Born Again?
SHINE ON!!
hugs
lone |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Much of the OT is myth and priestcraft, religious/political leaders have long been a millstone around the neck of humanity. When prophets of truth would rise up from within their cultures they would discredit or even destroy them.
Revealing God the Father to mankind, Jesus bore no resemblance to the moody, cruel and inconsistent God of the writings of the Old Testament. Contemporary religious leaders are afraid to embrace the gospel of Christ as they would loose control of the people as intermediaries. In fact, it is not at all uncommon for religious leaders to be mentally unstable, nothing more then witch doctors, related as a phenomenon to the long line of Shamans of old.
God does not make mistakes, he has never regretted anything that he has done or created. The flesh of man is as God created it to be, biologically affected by the sin of Eve yes, effected by the environment of darkness brought on by the evil ones, yes, but the choice to live as God had intended, the choice to sin or not is strictly up to man. We delude ourselves when we say we have no choice.
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Colter wrote: | | I notice that you quote Paul often but not Jesus himself. Pauls letters were just opinions like any other preacher. |
What makes you claim the UB has more credibility than the Bible. Are not the writings of the UB just the opinions of its alleged writers?
| Colter wrote: |
God . . . . . ., . . . has never regretted anything that he has done or created. |
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Gen. 6: 6) KJV
Strong's renders 'repented' -
BDB/Thayers # 5162
05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
| Colter wrote: | | The flesh of man is as God created it to be, biologically affected by the sin of Eve . . . |
God counted Adam as ultimately responsible not Eve and in fact God never warned Eve 'not to touch' the forbidden fruit / tree but only warned Adam. (Gen. 2:16 - 17) KJV
| Colter wrote: | | . . . yes, effected by the environment of darkness brought on by the evil ones, . . . |
What 'evil ones' are these supposedly? (Scriptural evidence of course please?)
| Colter wrote: | | . . . . yes, but the choice to live as God had intended, the choice to sin or not is strictly up to man. We delude ourselves when we say we have no choice. |
That is why the claims of a 'devil / Satan / fallen heavenly angel being is a Scriptural none sense. That is why God was so wise when He gave man no excuse for blaming any thing else except himself for his God given Free Will choices. No one including the Serpent of Eden could lay blame for an evil influence that God had created and indeed there is none else to blame except oneself.
Cheers! |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Good morning Composser,
It's 7:00 AM Friday where I am, that's why there is a delay in our post reply.
| Quote: | | What makes you claim the UB has more credibility than the Bible. Are not the writings of the UB just the opinions of its alleged writers? |
Yes, in some ways the UB is the opinion of a number of different universe personalities high and low. The revelators are quick to point out that revelation "sorts and censors" previously disclosed facts and discoveries as well as revealing new inspired material. In light of what science and philosophy have produced, the UB makes a lot of sense. Previously revelation has come in the form of people, Prince Caligastia 200,000 BC (who fell into sin) Adam and Eve 38,000 BC (who also fell into sin) Melchizedek 3,000 BC and his subsequent prophets, Christ 0 and the Urantia Book beginning 1911-34 and printed by celestial permission in 1955 AD.
Our God does not make mistakes nor regret his creation. He intended for us to be imperfect, that's why we are. Man was never up to fall from, Adam and Eve were incarnate ministers from the celestial world here to begin the rejuvenation of our sin darkened world. After a period of time the apostate, renegade deceivers managed to sabotage their ministry as well. ( I am aware that you do not believe in rebellious high administrators from the celestial dimension but what we are left with then in the scripture is two adult's who materialize educated and with some sort of pre-ordained mandate which some kind of fancy beast was able to sabotage).
| Quote: | | What 'evil ones' are these supposedly? (Scriptural evidence of course please?) |
The beast!
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Colter wrote: | | Good morning Composser, |
That would be Composer, ONE S! (I am also a Composer of Music)
| Colter wrote: | It's 7:00 AM Friday where I am, that's why there is a delay in our post reply.
| Quote: | | What makes you claim the UB has more credibility than the Bible. Are not the writings of the UB just the opinions of its alleged writers? |
Yes, in some ways the UB is the opinion of a number of different universe personalities high and low. The revelators are quick to point out that revelation "sorts and censors" previously disclosed facts and discoveries as well as revealing new inspired material. In light of what science and philosophy have produced, the UB makes a lot of sense. |
What do you mean by ". . . . in some ways the UB is the opinion of a number of different universe personalities high and low. . . . . " i.e. what is it 'in other ways?'
Also, Harry Potter stories seem 'real' to those who want to believe them?
Buffy the Vampire slayer similarly?
| Colter wrote: | | Previously revelation has come in the form of people, Prince Caligastia 200,000 BC (who fell into sin) Adam and Eve 38,000 BC (who also fell into sin) Melchizedek 3,000 BC and his subsequent prophets, Christ 0 and the Urantia Book beginning 1911-34 and printed by celestial permission in 1955 AD. |
Printed by celestial permission?
The Mormons claim their Book is legitimate and inspired material?
The Jehovah's Witnesses claim their revelations and their NWT is legitimate and new inspired material?
No doubt the Muslims claim similarly with their Koran?
The Seventh Day Adventists claim new inspired material?
And on it goes.
Why don't you quote from them as evidence to support your non Biblical cause?
| Colter wrote: | | Our God does not make mistakes nor regret his creation. |
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Gen. 6: 6) KJV
Strong's renders 'repented' -
BDB/Thayers # 5162
05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
The Bible invariably disagrees with you Colter.
| Colter wrote: |
He intended for us to be imperfect, that's why we are. Man was never up to fall from, Adam and Eve were incarnate ministers from the celestial world here to begin the rejuvenation of our sin darkened world. After a period of time the apostate, renegade deceivers managed to sabotage their ministry as well. ( I am aware that you do not believe in rebellious high administrators from the celestial dimension but what we are left with then in the scripture is two adult's who materialize educated and with some sort of pre-ordained mandate which some kind of fancy beast was able to sabotage). |
So at least you acknowledge the Serpent was a creature and not a silly fallen heavenly angel being?
In the Genesis narrative the Serpent didn't even converse with Adam so you can't blame the Serpent either?
| Quote: | What 'evil ones' are these supposedly? (Scriptural evidence of course please?)
The beast! |
With respect, please make up your mind Colter, you stated 'evil ones' (Plural) and now you respond with 'The beast' (Singular)
You are obviously unsure even of what you think you know?
Cheers! |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| composer2005 wrote: | What do you mean by ". . . . in some ways the UB is the opinion of a number of different universe personalities high and low. . . . . " i.e. what is it 'in other ways?'
Also, Harry Potter stories seem 'real' to those who want to believe them?
Buffy the Vampire slayer similarly? |
* The UB is a composite revelation, verious celestial personalities worked on differnt parts of the 196 papers.
* Harry Potter? Life is stranger than fiction.
| Quote: | Printed by celestial permission?
The Mormons claim their Book is legitimate and inspired material?
The Jehovah's Witnesses claim their revelations and their NWT is legitimate and new inspired material?
No doubt the Muslims claim similarly with their Koran?
The Seventh Day Adventists claim new inspired material?
And on it goes.
Why don't you quote from them as evidence to support your non Biblical cause? |
*Because they are not true.
| Quote: | And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Gen. 6: 6) KJV
Strong's renders 'repented' -
BDB/Thayers # 5162
05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
The Bible invariably disagrees with you Colter. |
The Bible disagrees with Jesus Christ, that's one reason that cowardly religious fanatics rejected Jesus' meassage and tried to kill him.
| Quote: | So at least you acknowledge the Serpent was a creature and not a silly fallen heavenly angel being?
In the Genesis narrative the Serpent didn't even converse with Adam so you can't blame the Serpent either? |
Oh, back to the "talking creature", and you call me a "Harry Potter" believer?
I used "singular" because the "beast" of Gen. is singular. Up until the Urantia Revelation we didn't know how many celestial administrators were involved.
PS, I was wondering if you were a composer of music, that's nice to know, I like music of all kinds. For what it's worth I will share with you something about "music" from the UB:
THE CELESTIAL MUSICIANS
With the limited range of mortal hearing, you can hardly conceive of morontia melodies. There is even a material range of beautiful sound unrecognized by the human sense of hearing, not to mention the inconceivable scope of morontia and spirit harmony. Spirit melodies are not material sound waves but spirit pulsations received by the spirits of celestial personalities. There is a vastness of range and a soul of expression, as well as a grandeur of execution, associated with the melody of the spheres, that are wholly beyond human comprehension. I have seen millions of enraptured beings held in sublime ecstasy while the melody of the realm rolled in upon the spirit energy of the celestial circuits. These marvelous melodies can be broadcast to the uttermost parts of a universe.
The celestial musicians are occupied with the production of celestial harmony by the manipulation of the following spirit forces:
1. Spiritual sound--spirit current interruptions.
2. Spiritual light--the control and intensification of the light of the morontia and spiritual realms.
3. Energy impingements--melody produced by the skillful management of the morontia and spirit energies.
4. Color symphonies--melody of morontia color tones; this ranks among the highest accomplishments of the celestial musicians.
5. Harmony of associated spirits--the very arrangement and association of different orders of morontia and spirit beings produce majestic melodies.
6. Melody of thought--the thinking of spiritual thoughts can be so perfected as to burst forth in the melodies of Havona.
7. The music of space--by proper attunement the melodies of other spheres can be picked up on the universe broadcast circuits.
There are over one hundred thousand different modes of sound, color, and energy manipulation, techniques analogous to the human employment of musical instruments. Your ensembles of dancing undoubtedly represent a crude and grotesque attempt of material creatures to approach the celestial harmony of being placement and personality arrangement. The other five forms of morontia melody are unrecognized by the sensory mechanism of material bodies.
Harmony, the music of the seven levels of melodious association, is the one universal code of spirit communication. Music, such as Urantia mortals understand, attains its highest expression in the schools of Jerusem, the system headquarters, where semimaterial beings are taught the harmonies of sound. Mortals do not react to the other forms of morontia melody and celestial harmony.
Appreciation of music on Urantia is both physical and spiritual; and your human musicians have done much to elevate musical taste from the barbarous monotony of your early ancestors to the higher levels of sound appreciation. The majority of Urantia mortals react to music so largely with the material muscles and so slightly with the mind and spirit; but there has been a steady improvement in musical appreciation for more than thirty-five thousand years.
Tuneful syncopation represents a transition from the musical monotony of primitive man to the expressionful harmony and meaningful melodies of your later-day musicians. These earlier types of rhythm stimulate the reaction of the music-loving sense without entailing the exertion of the higher intellectual powers of harmony appreciation and thus more generally appeal to immature or spiritually indolent individuals.
The best music of Urantia is just a fleeting echo of the magnificent strains heard by the celestial associates of your musicians, who left but snatches of these harmonies of morontia forces on record as the musical melodies of sound harmonics. Spirit-morontia music not infrequently employs all seven modes of expression and reproduction, so that the human mind is tremendously handicapped in any attempt to reduce these melodies of the higher spheres to mere notes of musical sound. Such an effort would be something like endeavoring to reproduce the strains of a great orchestra by means of a single musical instrument.
While you have assembled some beautiful melodies on Urantia, you have not progressed musically nearly so far as many of your neighboring planets in Satania. If Adam and Eve had only survived, then would you have had music in reality; but the gift of harmony, so large in their natures, has been so diluted by strains of unmusical tendencies that only once in a thousand mortal lives is there any great appreciation of harmonics. But be not discouraged; some day a real musician may appear on Urantia, and whole peoples will be enthralled by the magnificent strains of his melodies. One such human being could forever change the course of a whole nation, even the entire civilized world. It is literally true, "melody has power a whole world to transform." Forever, music will remain the universal language of men, angels, and spirits. Harmony is the speech of Havona." UB
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Colter wrote: | | composer2005 wrote: | What do you mean by ". . . . in some ways the UB is the opinion of a number of different universe personalities high and low. . . . . " i.e. what is it 'in other ways?'
Also, Harry Potter stories seem 'real' to those who want to believe them?
Buffy the Vampire slayer similarly? |
* The UB is a composite revelation, verious celestial personalities worked on differnt parts of the 196 papers.
* Harry Potter? Life is stranger than fiction.
| Quote: | Printed by celestial permission?
The Mormons claim their Book is legitimate and inspired material?
The Jehovah's Witnesses claim their revelations and their NWT is legitimate and new inspired material?
No doubt the Muslims claim similarly with their Koran?
The Seventh Day Adventists claim new inspired material?
And on it goes.
Why don't you quote from them as evidence to support your non Biblical cause? |
*Because they are not true. |
The Bible is obviously your enemy and does not support your current celestial claims, so you run to another book, just like they run to theirs. You are no different from them.
| Quote: | And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. (Gen. 6: 6) KJV
Strong's renders 'repented' -
BDB/Thayers # 5162
05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted
The Bible invariably disagrees with you Colter. |
| Colter wrote: | | The Bible disagrees with Jesus Christ, . . . |
What parts disagree with Jesus Christ and your Bible evidence why please?
| Quote: | So at least you acknowledge the Serpent was a creature and not a silly fallen heavenly angel being?
In the Genesis narrative the Serpent didn't even converse with Adam so you can't blame the Serpent either? |
| Colter wrote: | | Oh, back to the "talking creature", and you call me a "Harry Potter" believer? |
Even today, many animals understand the commands of their owners, but 'we' do not understand their various 'voices' so it seems quite logical that 'before the Adamic curse' because of Adam's disobedience, animals (at least the 'more subtle' (Gen. 3: 1)) KJV Serpent Creature was punished also and lost its superior power of speech (as at least Eve knew it) because of its part in the Genesis narrative just as anatomical anaylisis confirms at least some 'Snakes' (perhaps all?) once had legs.
Those are the facts, compared to your 'celestial UB stories'.
| Colter wrote: | | I used "singular" because the "beast" of Gen. is singular. Up until the Urantia Revelation we didn't know how many celestial administrators were involved. |
You said 'evil ones' now challenged you capitulate and changed your story?
Cheers! |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The Bible is obviously your enemy and does not support your current celestial claims, so you run to another book, just like they run to theirs. You are no different from them. |
God looks into the heart and judges by the motive. My Father in heaven knows why I beleive what I do. I stand ready to be judged for my faith.
| Quote: | | What parts disagree with Jesus Christ and your Bible evidence why please? |
*Jesus wasn't the Jewsih Messiah.
* The God revealed in the person of Jesus differs from the dim view of God in the OT writings. The Bible is written by man and reflects mans opinion of God in ancient times.
| Quote: | Even today, many animals understand the commands of their owners, but 'we' do not understand their various 'voices' so it seems quite logical that 'before the Adamic curse' because of Adam's disobedience, animals (at least the 'more subtle' (Gen. 3: 1)) KJV Serpent Creature was punished also and lost its superior power of speech (as at least Eve knew it) because of its part in the Genesis narrative just as anatomical anaylisis confirms at least some 'Snakes' (perhaps all?) once had legs.
Those are the facts, compared to your 'celestial UB stories'. |
Are you saying that God created educated animals that could talk to Eve?
| Quote: | | You said 'evil ones' now challenged you capitulate and changed your story? |
I have always maintained that the "prince of this world" ( a high celestial administrator) was lead into rebellion by one of his superiors who the Bible calls Lucifer. Lucifer's asistent, who often visited this world was named Satan.
Before the Book of Revelation was distirted by an apocolyptic writer, John was shown this battle between Christ Michael and the deceivers, It was a battle of righteousness and ideas which transpired prior to Jesus begining his ministry. It occured in the days which preceeded Jesus' baptism. It occured on mt. Herman.
9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
The high administrator, who the Laten translation calls "Lucifer" lead many beings high and low into rebellion against God in the heavenly realm. His manifesto is as fallows:
THE LUCIFER MANIFESTO
Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:
1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father's name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father's actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel's proposals.
2. The universe government of the Creator Son--Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.
Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days--"foreign potentates"--to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.
He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.
3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.
And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death. UB 1955
Colter |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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The Fall of Adam and Eve.
CALIGASTIA'S PLOT (The Prince of this world)
Caligastia paid frequent visits to the Garden and held many conferences with Adam and Eve, but they were adamant to all his suggestions of compromise and short-cut adventures. They had before them enough of the results of rebellion to produce effective immunity against all such insinuating proposals. Even the young offspring of Adam were uninfluenced by the overtures of Daligastia. And of course neither Caligastia nor his associate had power to influence any individual against his will, much less to persuade the children of Adam to do wrong.
It must be remembered that Caligastia was still the titular Planetary Prince of Urantia, a misguided but nevertheless high Son of the local universe. He was not finally deposed until the times of Christ Michael on Urantia.
But the fallen Prince was persistent and determined. He soon gave up working on Adam and decided to try a wily flank attack on Eve. The evil one concluded that the only hope for success lay in the adroit employment of suitable persons belonging to the upper strata of the Nodite group, the descendants of his onetime corporeal-staff associates. And the plans were accordingly laid for entrapping the mother of the violet race.
It was farthest from Eve's intention ever to do anything which would militate against Adam's plans or jeopardize their planetary trust. Knowing the tendency of woman to look upon immediate results rather than to plan farsightedly for more remote effects, the Melchizedeks, before departing, had especially enjoined Eve as to the peculiar dangers besetting their isolated position on the planet and had in particular warned her never to stray from the side of her mate, that is, to attempt no personal or secret methods of furthering their mutual undertakings. Eve had most scrupulously carried out these instructions for more than one hundred years, and it did not occur to her that any danger would attach to the increasingly private and confidential visits she was enjoying with a certain Nodite leader named Serapatatia. The whole affair developed so gradually and naturally that she was taken unawares.
The Garden dwellers had been in contact with the Nodites since the early days of Eden. From these mixed descendants of the defaulting members of Caligastia's staff they had received much valuable help and co-operation, and through them the Edenic regime was now to meet its complete undoing and final overthrow.
THE TEMPTATION OF EVE
Adam had just finished his first one hundred years on earth when Serapatatia, upon the death of his father, came to the leadership of the western or Syrian confederation of the Nodite tribes. Serapatatia was a brown-tinted man, a brilliant descendant of the onetime chief of the Dalamatia commission on health mated with one of the master female minds of the blue race of those distant days. All down through the ages this line had held authority and wielded a great influence among the western Nodite tribes.
Serapatatia had made several visits to the Garden and had become deeply impressed with the righteousness of Adam's cause. And shortly after assuming the leadership of the Syrian Nodites, he announced his intention of establishing an affiliation with the work of Adam and Eve in the Garden. The majority of his people joined him in this program, and Adam was cheered by the news that the most powerful and the most intelligent of all the neighboring tribes had swung over almost bodily to the support of the program for world improvement; it was decidedly heartening. And shortly after this great event, Serapatatia and his new staff were entertained by Adam and Eve in their own home.
Serapatatia became one of the most able and efficient of all of Adam's lieutenants. He was entirely honest and thoroughly sincere in all of his activities; he was never conscious, even later on, that he was being used as a circumstantial tool of the wily Caligastia.
Presently, Serapatatia became the associate chairman of the Edenic commission on tribal relations, and many plans were laid for the more vigorous prosecution of the work of winning the remote tribes to the cause of the Garden.
He held many conferences with Adam and Eve--especially with Eve--and they talked over many plans for improving their methods. One day, during a talk with Eve, it occurred to Serapatatia that it would be very helpful if, while awaiting the recruiting of large numbers of the violet race, something could be done in the meantime immediately to advance the needy waiting tribes. Serapatatia contended that, if the Nodites, as the most progressive and co-operative race, could have a leader born to them of part origin in the violet stock, it would constitute a powerful tie binding these peoples more closely to the Garden. And all of this was soberly and honestly considered to be for the good of the world since this child, to be reared and educated in the Garden, would exert a great influence for good over his father's people.
It should again be emphasized that Serapatatia was altogether honest and wholly sincere in all that he proposed. He never once suspected that he was playing into the hands of Caligastia and Daligastia. Serapatatia was entirely loyal to the plan of building up a strong reserve of the violet race before attempting the world-wide upstepping of the confused peoples of Urantia. But this would require hundreds of years to consummate, and he was impatient; he wanted to see some immediate results--something in his own lifetime. He made it clear to Eve that Adam was oftentimes discouraged by the little that had been accomplished toward uplifting the world.
For more than five years these plans were secretly matured. At last they had developed to the point where Eve consented to have a secret conference with
Cano, the most brilliant mind and active leader of the near-by colony of friendly Nodites. Cano was very sympathetic with the Adamic regime; in fact, he was the sincere spiritual leader of those neighboring Nodites who favored friendly relations with the Garden.
The fateful meeting occurred during the twilight hours of the autumn evening, not far from the home of Adam. Eve had never before met the beautiful and enthusiastic Cano--and he was a magnificent specimen of the survival of the superior physique and outstanding intellect of his remote progenitors of the Prince's staff. And Cano also thoroughly believed in the righteousness of the Serapatatia project. (Outside of the Garden, multiple mating was a common practice.)
Influenced by flattery, enthusiasm, and great personal persuasion, Eve then and there consented to embark upon the much-discussed enterprise, to add her own little scheme of world saving to the larger and more far-reaching divine plan. Before she quite realized what was transpiring, the fatal step had been taken. It was done. UB 1955
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Composer wrote: | | The Bible is obviously your enemy and does not support your current celestial claims, so you run to another book, just like they run to theirs. You are no different from them. |
| Colter wrote: | | God looks into the heart and judges by the motive. My Father in heaven knows why I beleive what I do. I stand ready to be judged for my faith. |
So do all the rest, Mormons, J.W's, Muslims, SDA's etc. etc. Their doctrine like yours is not supported legitimately by the Bible and so you all run elsewhere or manufacture or produce a Bible version or Book to suit?
| Quote: | | What parts disagree with Jesus Christ and your Bible evidence why please? |
| Colter wrote: | | *Jesus wasn't the Jewsih Messiah. |
He was in reality but not accepted as such by most of the Jews. That doesn't mean the Bible disagrees with Christ because it certainly doesn't disagree with him at all and you have provided nothing tangible from the Bible to support your claims?
| Colter wrote: | | * The God revealed in the person of Jesus differs from the dim view of God in the OT writings. The Bible is written by man and reflects mans opinion of God in ancient times. |
Dim view of God?
The Bible was 'recorded by God inspired men' and not fanciful celestial beings?
| Composer2005 wrote: | Even today, many animals understand the commands of their owners, but 'we' do not understand their various 'voices' so it seems quite logical that 'before the Adamic curse' because of Adam's disobedience, animals (at least the 'more subtle' (Gen. 3: 1)) KJV Serpent Creature was punished also and lost its superior power of speech (as at least Eve knew it) because of its part in the Genesis narrative just as anatomical anaylisis confirms at least some 'Snakes' (perhaps all?) once had legs.
Those are the facts, compared to your 'celestial UB stories'. |
| Colter wrote: | | Are you saying that God created educated animals that could talk to Eve? |
1. The Bible does - See Genesis narrative. e.g. 3: 1 KJV
2. Anatomical proof shows Snakes once had legs.
3. The Serpent creature didn't even converse directly with Adam and God's punishment against mankind was incurred NOT because of the Serpent and NOT because of Eve but because of Adam's disobedience. (Rom. 5:12) KJV
Like the Pharisees you are NOT focusing wisely.
| Composer wrote: | | You said 'evil ones' now challenged you capitulate and changed your story? |
| Colter wrote: | | I have always maintained that the "prince of this world" (a high celestial administrator) was lead into rebellion by one of his superiors who the Bible calls Lucifer. Lucifer's asistent, who often visited this world was named Satan. |
Exactly the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.
So you are inferring Jesus led your Satan into rebellion?
| Colter wrote: | | Before the Book of Revelation was distirted by an apocolyptic writer, John was shown this battle between Christ Michael and the deceivers, It was a battle of righteousness and ideas which transpired prior to Jesus begining his ministry. It occured in the days which preceeded Jesus' baptism. It occured on mt. Herman. |
Are you now claiming Jesus was once the archangel Michael or still is?
| Colter wrote: | | The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. |
But your devil, Satan DOESN'T lead the whole world astray - And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14) KJV
. . . . I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Tim. 1:20) KJV
Your current devil / Satan is a self contradciting imposter!
BTW: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: (Rev. 12: 4) KJV So why did your Satan / Devil / Dragon evict its own army out before you say this god did?
Cheers! |
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