 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:24 pm Post subject: Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD |
 |
|
Forum
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD
Does "one" mean one person or unified in divinity?
Some thoughts from the Urantia revelation:
THE PARADISE TRINITY
THE Paradise Trinity of eternal Deities facilitates the Father's escape from personality absolutism. The Trinity perfectly associates the limitless expression of God's infinite personal will with the absoluteness of Deity. The Eternal Son and the various Sons of divine origin, together with the Conjoint Actor and his universe children, effectively provide for the Father's liberation from the limitations otherwise inherent in primacy, perfection, changelessness, eternity, universality, absoluteness, and infinity.
The Paradise Trinity effectively provides for the full expression and perfect revelation of the eternal nature of Deity. The Stationary Sons of the Trinity likewise afford a full and perfect revelation of divine justice. The Trinity is Deity unity, and this unity rests eternally upon the absolute foundations of the divine oneness of the three original and co-ordinate and coexistent personalities, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit..........
CONT> http://mercy.urantia.org/papers/paper10.html
any thoughts?
Colter |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ah, my buddy Colter and his book from the inhabitants of Uranus. Just kidding (why DID they choose the name "Urantia"?)
As you may have seen in my response to another thread, the concept if Dt 6:4 is not that "elohim" is one, but that YHWH (Jehovah) is one. So this leaves some "wiggle" room for trinitarians to exclaim from the rooftop that "Jesus is God". But they cross over into shaky territory when they say that Yeshua is Yahweh. Stick with what will support your belief, I say.
This "person" malarkey is a lame cover up. "Well, polytheism says 'more than one God'. But what if our God is one, but made of of 3 'persons'? Surely others will buy into such a monotheism as that, right?"
Nope.
God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. I don't see three 'persons', I see three Gods. And 3 !=1.
Bah! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| kejonn wrote: | Ah, my buddy Colter and his book from the inhabitants of Uranus. Just kidding (why DID they choose the name "Urantia"?)
As you may have seen in my response to another thread, the concept if Dt 6:4 is not that "elohim" is one, but that YHWH (Jehovah) is one. So this leaves some "wiggle" room for trinitarians to exclaim from the rooftop that "Jesus is God". But they cross over into shaky territory when they say that Yeshua is Yahweh. Stick with what will support your belief, I say.
This "person" malarkey is a lame cover up. "Well, polytheism says 'more than one God'. But what if our God is one, but made of of 3 'persons'? Surely others will buy into such a monotheism as that, right?"
Nope.
God the Father. God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. I don't see three 'persons', I see three Gods. And 3 !=1.
Bah! |
"Uranus"...Funny man! Hey, did you know there's like a mega-huge shark right behind your head?
"Urantia" is the heavenly name of our world, like Michael was/is Jesus' heavenly name. Under Michaels creatorship there are 10,000,000 inhabited worlds which make up our local system. We are quarantined along with 38 other worlds following the planetary rebellion against the rule of the Father. There are 7 trillion inhabited planets in the super universe.
DEITY UNITY
The oneness, the indivisibility, of Paradise Deity is existential and absolute. There are three eternal personalizations of Deity--the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Infinite Spirit--but in the Paradise Trinity they are actually one Deity, undivided and indivisible.
From the original Paradise-Havona level of existential reality, two subabsolute levels have differentiated, and thereon have the Father, Son, and Spirit engaged in the creation of numerous personal associates and subordinates. And while it is inappropriate in this connection to undertake the consideration of absonite deity unification on transcendental levels of ultimacy, it is feasible to look at some features of the unifying function of the various Deity personalizations in whom divinity is functionally manifest to the diverse sectors of creation and to the different orders of intelligent beings.
The present functioning of divinity in the superuniverses is actively manifest in the operations of the Supreme Creators--the local universe Creator Sons and Spirits, the superuniverse Ancients of Days, and the Seven Master Spirits of Paradise. These beings constitute the first three levels of God the Sevenfold leading inward to the Universal Father, and this entire domain of God the Sevenfold is co-ordinating on the first level of experiential deity in the evolving Supreme Being.
On Paradise and in the central universe, Deity unity is a fact of existence. Throughout the evolving universes of time and space, Deity unity is an achievement. UB
kjohnn,
I have some questions for you:
On another thread you were explaining what "the word" is as that term relates to John's opening chapter. Can you explain what the "beginning" was? When was the beginning of the infinite God?
If God is literally and exclusively one personality, embodying all the attributes of divinity, why doesn't he act unilaterally?
Why did God create a man (Jesus) and then give him the attributes of divinity and subsequently rulership of the heavens and earth?
What religion are you?
Colter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Colter wrote: |
"Uranus"...Funny man! Hey, did you know there's like a mega-huge shark right behind your head? |
Yes, but I trust God to deliver me. Sorta like Daniel in the lion's den  .
| Quote: | | "Urantia" is the heavenly name of our world, like Michael was/is Jesus' heavenly name. Under Michaels creatorship there are 10,000,000 inhabited worlds which make up our local system. We are quarantined along with 38 other worlds following the planetary rebellion against the rule of the Father. There are 7 trillion inhabited planets in the super universe. |
I saw someone else equate some of your beliefs to Mormonism. And I'm pretty sure that JWs believe Jesus is/was Michael. Or do Mormons believe that too? I don't keep up with any of those religions.
Based on the above quote, it looks like Urantia religion is a mish-mash of Mormonism, JW, and Scientology with some Star Wars, Star Trek, and Battlestar Galactica thrown in.
Gives new meaning to the song "I'll Fly Away".
| Quote: | DEITY UNITY
The oneness, the indivisibility, of Paradise Deity is existential and absolute. There are three eternal personalizations of Deity--the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Infinite Spirit--but in the Paradise Trinity they are actually one Deity, undivided and indivisible. |
Well, at least the "elohim" are not some alien race. Good to see the Urantia book retains some semblance of mainstream Christianity.
| Quote: | From the original Paradise-Havona level of existential reality, two subabsolute levels have differentiated, and thereon have the Father, Son, and Spirit engaged in the creation of numerous personal associates and subordinates. And while it is inappropriate in this connection to undertake the consideration of absonite deity unification on transcendental levels of ultimacy, it is feasible to look at some features of the unifying function of the various Deity personalizations in whom divinity is functionally manifest to the diverse sectors of creation and to the different orders of intelligent beings.
The present functioning of divinity in the superuniverses is actively manifest in the operations of the Supreme Creators--the local universe Creator Sons and Spirits, the superuniverse Ancients of Days, and the Seven Master Spirits of Paradise. These beings constitute the first three levels of God the Sevenfold leading inward to the Universal Father, and this entire domain of God the Sevenfold is co-ordinating on the first level of experiential deity in the evolving Supreme Being. |
Sounds neat. Has anyone made this into a catchy tune that can be sung around the campfire?
| Quote: | | On Paradise and in the central universe, Deity unity is a fact of existence. Throughout the evolving universes of time and space, Deity unity is an achievement. UB |
What do you mean, an "achievement"? So God was not always triune but this was "achieved" sometime throughout eternity?
| Quote: | kjohnn,
I have some questions for you:
On another thread you were explaining what "the word" is as that term relates to John's opening chapter. Can you explain what the "beginning" was? When was the beginning of the infinite God? |
The John 1 opening verse go back to Genesis 1. They are there to equate the God of the OT to John's Gospel to show that very same God, the creator, had a Son. The beginning spoke of in Genesis is the start of the creation of all we know, but it was not the "beginning" of the eternal, unbegotten God, YHWH.
| Quote: | | If God is literally and exclusively one personality, embodying all the attributes of divinity, why doesn't he act unilaterally? |
In what sense does He not act unilaterally?
| Quote: | | Why did God create a man (Jesus) and then give him the attributes of divinity and subsequently rulership of the heavens and earth? |
Now that IS a mystery! But if I was forced to give my belief as to why, I would say that as man, we cannot truly understand a God who is invisible and who is all spirit. However, we CAN understand another human being (well, not all of them, but most of them). It is like the world and all the things around us. Those are things that can be seen, touched, heard. Yeshua, as the Son of God in the form of man, could also be see, touched, and heard. And since God created man in His image, we hold a very dear place in His eyes. It is then only natural that His only begotten Son, the image of Himself, would be given rulership over all creation because the creation we see in Genesis 1 is all about who the earth was given to: man.
| Quote: | | What religion are you? |
I don't care to be placed in a "religion". Religion is man's way of pleasing God. But I do claim to be a Christianos, a follower of Christ. And I suppose that if I was forced to wear a team jersey, I would wear that of a Biblical Unitarian. But I would have been a recent walk-on from the Southern Baptists.
Later Colter,
Kevin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | I saw someone else equate some of your beliefs to Mormonism. And I'm pretty sure that JWs believe Jesus is/was Michael. Or do Mormons believe that too? I don't keep up with any of those religions.
Based on the above quote, it looks like Urantia religion is a mish-mash of Mormonism, JW, and Scientology with some Star Wars, Star Trek, and Battlestar Galactica thrown in.
Gives new meaning to the song "I'll Fly Away". |
I find it fascinating how Bible believers compartmentalize the "celestial beings" of scripture as normal compared to the discussion of any beings outside of the Bible as odd.
Being that you have not read the UB I will give you a pass on analyzing what it contains.
| Quote: | | Well, at least the "elohim" are not some alien race. Good to see the Urantia book retains some semblance of mainstream Christianity. |
Their not "alien's" anymore once we know who they are. Maybe you would prefer "heavenly host", that's safe.
| Quote: | | What do you mean, an "achievement"? So God was not always triune but this was "achieved" sometime throughout eternity? |
Philosophically yes, he became the Father of the son, pre-material creation but post-paradice [i]infinity.[/i]
| Quote: | | The John 1 opening verse go back to Genesis 1. They are there to equate the God of the OT to John's Gospel to show that very same God, the creator, had a Son. The beginning spoke of in Genesis is the start of the creation of all we know, but it was not the "beginning" of the eternal, unforgotten God, YHWH. |
The world was made through the word-son in Johns mind. The son Jesus existed before the world was made, in Johns narrative.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
| Quote: | | In what sense does He not act unilaterally? |
When he delegates creative powers and authority, as he did in his son.
| Quote: | | I don't care to be placed in a "religion". Religion is man's way of pleasing God. But I do claim to be a Christianos, a follower of Christ. And I suppose that if I was forced to wear a team jersey, I would wear that of a Biblical Unitarian. But I would have been a recent walk-on from the Southern Baptists. |
I can relate to this, I am a disciple of Jesus but not a Christian as there is so much baggage attached to that label.
Thanks
Colter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Monothiest
Tadpole
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 25
Location: new york
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ehad means one. Why would God label himself as one if hes really three in one? the shema would be 3-in-1 ont one. whats all the confusion? The trinity reeks of paganism, The egyptians, Romans, Greeks, etc.. all had at least one "3-in1" God. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Mono,
Because it took Christians to help Jews see that their God was really not all He said He was all of those 4000 years. In fact, Yeshua didn't know it either 'cause he never said anything about. Thank goodness these folks came around and "clarified" the nature of God, hmm?
Oh, and now its been 6000 years and the Jews still don't know their God is triune. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Hebrew word for one (Echad) in the Shema is inclusive of unified groups and is used over 900 times in scripture.
A husband and wife are one (Echad) use the same word as the Shema.
likewise a troop of soldiers who act as one will be written about with the same Hebrew word (Echad)
There is no better explanation of this than the Christian Think-tank writings on the Trinity www.christian-thinktank.com/trin01.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
45degreeN,
So? The hebrew word "Echad" carries the same meaning as the english word "one". A husband and wife are one is as easily understood in english as in hebrew. The context never shows God as a group that is called "one".
Deut 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
What is your point???
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My but you read a lot of stuff. Lots and lots of stuff. All kinds of stuff except the stuff that tells you the truth about the whole thing and that would have to be the Bible. The Holy Bible, not the thoughts of JW or of the Pastors of different denominations, not the Pope, not some guy who wants everyone to think his way. Lets try to read what those who walked and talked with Yeshua and even Yeshua Himself had to say.
The Old Testament is the same Hebrew texts that Yeshua read and quoted from. It is the text of God's people the Israelites of which the Jews are just one of the 12 tribes. These people believe then as now that God is one, not a whole group, not a husband wife and child, but one only. The question would then have to be how did so called Christians teach Jews anything. Yeshua the Isrealite taught Israelites and from those teachings came Christians? The Christians, who came later got their teachings from elsewhere. Those who followed Yeshua were not at first called Christians but Nazarines. They were devided into two sects, the Israelite believers who brought Yeshua into there lives, and the Pagan oriented church who brought with them their belief in triune God's. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Indeed the Bible does reveal the truth.
But Rocket, by your own statement 45degreeN shouldn't listen to you either. You provided your idea of what the OT reveals, which I agree with, but indicated that there are no proper teachers whom people should listen to.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some as ...shepherds and teachers,
JW's teach the truth from the Bible, including the fact there is no trinity.
Should people blindly follow such teachers? NO!!!
That is why they need to examine for themsleves.
Acts 17:11 Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My teaching was to read the Bible and get the truth from there. It is not necessary to believe anything I say, or you say or the church says or the Pope says. I believe that the man who was sent to me from God has told the truth to us all. Do you then believe that that is a lie.
You, I believe are JW? Are you sure they believe as Yeshua believed. How are you sure. Yeshua was a Jew. One of the 12 tribes of Isreal. Is that a true statement of fact. Does JW believe that? The teachings that Yeshua give us in the New Testament are from the teachings He read in the Old. Does JW teach that.
This man Yeshua gave everything He was to save His people. I am so tired of all the fighting and the ridiculous disagreement, when Yeshua told us to 1. Love God and 2 love one another. In these two commandments He summarized all ten commandments God gave His people. Believe in Him, in the man that died for you. Read the Bible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Rocket,
Hi,
| Rocket wrote: | | My teaching was to read the Bible and get the truth from there. |
Indeed. Yet you disclosed the fact that you do not believe any can properly teach others though. The scripture disagree.
| Rocket wrote: | | I believe that the man who was sent to me from God has told the truth to us all. Do you then believe that that is a lie. |
Not one bit. However certain ones can twist Jesus' teachings and teach lies like the trinity. There are honest hearted teachers pointing out such lies and showing the truth of scripture. 
| Rocket wrote: | | You, I believe are JW? Are you sure they believe as Yeshua believed. |
Yes and yes!
| Rocket wrote: | | How are you sure. |
Because we follow in Jesus footsteps, as is evident in our preaching about the kingdom and the love that is evident in our world wide association of brothers.
| Rocket wrote: | | Yeshua was a Jew. One of the 12 tribes of Isreal. Is that a true statement of fact. Does JW believe that? |
Yes.
| Rocket wrote: | | The teachings that Yeshua give us in the New Testament are from the teachings He read in the Old. Does JW teach that. |
Partly. Some things were new though. For instance, the Christian congregation worships differently then the Jews though. Christians aren't under the Mosiac law, as Christ was the end of that law. However the identity of God didn't change as many would like to believe.
| Rocket wrote: | | This man Yeshua gave everything He was to save His people. I am so tired of all the fighting and the ridiculous disagreement, |
Me too. However such things are going to happen, as the majority of that nation, who was suppose to be dedicated to God, didn't even accept Jesus in his day, despite all the wonderful things he did.
| ROcket wrote: | | 1. Love God and 2 love one another. |
Love should motivate us to teach the truth to our neighbors. Not all will accept the truth, hence the disagreements.
| Rocket wrote: | | Believe in Him, in the man that died for you. Read the Bible. |
Indeed!!!
KJV John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jesus was the great teacher and preached about the kingdom. We need to follow and imitate him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2416
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Elohim is a plural form of Eloah ( it is used 2750 times in scripture) and the Hebrews would have in fact used the singular form (Eloah) if they wanted. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
|
| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 45 degrees, How do you know He was a carpenter. When you look at pictures of the Holy Land it is desert. How many trees do you see, and how many buildings are made from wood. In the original version of the Bible, in the language of Yeshua it says He worked with a hard substance, that could have been mud brick, we don't know. The basic concept of the Bible I believe is true, but much has been altered in interpretation and translation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
