 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
slaveOFchrist
Little Guppy
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 30
Location: NY
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: The Trinity & The Atonement |
 |
|
As I have studied the doctrines of the Trinity and the Atonement I have more and more been convinced that they are in conflict with each other. One way to express this contradiction is:
If Jesus is God then he is immortal
If Jesus did not die then our sins are not paid for
Last edited by slaveOFchrist on Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:15 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
slaveofchrist,l
| Quote: | | As I have studied the doctrines of the Trinity and the Atonement I have more and more been convinced that they are in conflict with eachother. One way to express this contradiction is: |
| Quote: | If Jesus is God then he is immortal
If Jesus did not die then our sins are not paid for
|
Because the word trinity is not in the Bible I personally do not use the term, I refer to Them as One.
I John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
However to most this is just a play on words.
If you are thinking that because Christ died on the cross he is not immortal then you are mistaken.
Christ came in the flesh to die for sin in the flesh. He is a Spirit and that Spirit did not die, only the flesh died at the cross. He is alpha and omega the beginning and the end. He was, is and always will be.
II Cor 5:16, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (at the cross), yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Christ rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father. Christ raised many from the dead when he was on earth, but they were only to die again. Christ will never die again, his life and his kingdom are eternal. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
SlaveofChrist, I don't see the conflict if you understand the idea of the Trinity correctly. Atonement is flesh and blood and not part of the Trinity. Jesus actually died in the flesh, but His spirit never died. You can't say God died because God is spirit and spirit doesn't die. Jesus is God and so, yes, He is immortal.
Atonement is man's story with God throughout the O.T. The N.T is about how Jesus, the spirit and word of God, and also a human being with flesh and blood, provided our atonement. I would say this:
If Jesus wasn't God, His death wouldn't have paid for our sins. Why should it if he was just another one of God's creations? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: The Trinity & The Atonement |
|
|
Hi SOC,
| slaveOFchrist wrote: | As I have studied the doctrines of the Trinity and the Atonement I have more and more been convinced that they are in conflict with eachother. One way to express this contradiction is:
If Jesus is God then he is immortal
If Jesus did not die then our sins are not paid for |
Very astute observation! I applaud you.
God bless,
2P |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Monothiest
Tadpole
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 25
Location: new york
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nana,
1 john 5.7 is a forgery, even noted by conservative scholars and is not in any of the early Greek manuscripts. Furthermore you will not find that rendering of the text in any modern translation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slaveOFchrist
Little Guppy
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 30
Location: NY
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I appreciate your comments but maybe I need to clarify myself so that we don't have to focus on all the different theories of death out there. When I said that "God is immortal," I was referring to verse from Timothy.
1 Timothy 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.
Thus God is immortal. He cannot die. Immortal is made from "im" meaning "not" and "mortal" meaning "can die." Therefore, whatever your defintion of death is, God cannot die. It is a property of God's nature. Thus, my conundrum still remains: how can Jesus be God if God is immortal yet Jesus died?
Obviously one of the two statements must be denied. If we deny that Jesus died for our sins then we are in direct contradiction to dozens of texts from the New Testament. If we deny that Jesus is God then we are stuck with a couple of verses that say flatout that Jesus is God (John 20.28 and Hebrews 1.8). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Monothiest
Tadpole
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 25
Location: new york
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Well so were the judges of Israel and a Davidic king was called God, In psalm 8 angels are called God....but certainly not God Almighty? Jesus was a man, he did not create the heavens in the earth, thats insulting to Yahweh. We have a problem here. Modern christians have abandoned the creed of Israel (deut 6.4) dont you think that wouldve been "Hear O Israel, the LORD is our God, The LORD is 3 in 1." No it doesnt say that, im not really good at math but I know that 1+1+1=3 3 gods is not one God. Also 1 cor 8.6. "For us there is but one God, the father..." and 1 tim 2.5 "For there is one god and, one mediator between god and men, the man Christ Jesus. The only way anyone can refute that are by phrases that are not in the bible and that jesus himself did not teach. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dear Slave of Christ
It is a pleasure to see it put so simply. I am a member of the Christadelphians (Brothers and Sisters in Christ) and share your reading of Scripture on this issue.
I also clicked and looked the webpage, Anabaptist-Mennonite blog, etc and was very impressed with the content.
Thank you 
Steven |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cballard wrote: | | SlaveofChrist, I don't see the conflict if you understand the idea of the Trinity correctly. |
 This just stood out to me. Even most any trinitarian will tell you that actually understanding it is beyond our capability.
| cballard wrote: | | Atonement is flesh and blood... |
This was interesting too. And sorry if I'm getting a little off topic with these points, but I couldn't resist commenting. No one can deny that Jesus' flesh and blood died. But if atonement is flesh and blood only, then how does it save our spirits?
From Psalm 16:
| Quote: | 9Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm sure this thread will be moved to the Trinity board soon but until then...
| nana wrote: |
Because the word trinity is not in the Bible I personally do not use the term, I refer to Them as One.
I John 5:7, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." |
I can't believe anyone in 2007 would still use this verse as evidence. Most people know it was added into the manuscript used in the original KJV.
| Quote: | However to most this is just a play on words.
If you are thinking that because Christ died on the cross he is not immortal then you are mistaken.
Christ came in the flesh to die for sin in the flesh. He is a Spirit and that Spirit did not die, only the flesh died at the cross. He is alpha and omega the beginning and the end. He was, is and always will be.
II Cor 5:16, "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh (at the cross), yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Christ rose from the dead and is seated at the right hand of the Father. Christ raised many from the dead when he was on earth, but they were only to die again. Christ will never die again, his life and his kingdom are eternal. |
I'm curious, but how can just the death of flesh and blood save anything but flesh and blood? What of our soul? Our spirit? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The question of how can just the death of flesh and blood save anything but flesh and blood is a good one. What of our soul? Our spirit?
Man is born of spirit in the garden. I'm of the belief that all of humanity was created immortal in their spirit. Really, when I think about it, the idea of the continuation of the soul is a presumption in all religious beliefs. So really, I guess the question is the actual death of the human body of Jesus and how that relates to his relationship to the entity called the Trinity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slaveOFchrist
Little Guppy
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 30
Location: NY
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Right, it seems like there is a major problem here. Thanks for bringing that up. If we introduce the doctrine of Natural Immortality (that is that everyone has an invisible soul that must survive the death of the body) it adds a whole new wrinkle to the situation. So from a trinitarian perspective, Jesus is fully God and fully man. Yet we already know that God is immortal (from 1 Timothy). Even so, according to the trinitarian model of atonement, Jesus had to be God in order to pay for the sins of the world. But this is exactly the problem. By definition the portion of Jesus that makes him God (his divinity) didn't die on the cross. Thus we are left in quite a muddle.
I would like to propose a way out of these difficulties. What if we take the Scriptures that refer to Jesus as being God (John 20.28 and Heb 1.8) in a representative sense. What I mean is that we could understand Jesus being God in the same sense in which Moses was called God (Ex 7.1), the judges of Israel were called Gods (Ex 21.6; 22.8-9; Ps 82.6), and the Davidic King is called God (Ps 45.6). Perhaps to some this sounds like a strange idea but apparently Jesus thought like this when he defended himself to the Pharisees (John 10.33-36).
If this is the case that Jesus is representatively God, but not God in his nature then all of these trinitarian difficulties are unnecessary. We can adhere to the strict monotheism of the Jewish Bible (Deut 6.4; 2 Kings 19.19) and agree with Jesus that the Father is the only true God (Jn 17.3) and Paul that for us (Christians) there is one God--the Father (1 Cor 8.6). Jesus is his representative (the perfect representative) who can be called God in a representative sense because he operates on behalf of God to us and for us (Jn 1.18). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello slaveOFchrist,
| slaveOFchrist wrote: | | from a trinitarian perspective, Jesus is fully God and fully man |
I would say, in a manner of speaking, yes. God the Father is invisible, in a manner of speaking. No man has seen the Father....the Son declares Him. God in His infinitude is, logically, invisible. Infinity/infinitude obviously cannot be seen....in it's entirety, as infinitude has no entirety. Thus, God has no entirety...He is infinite. The Lord Jesus is everything knowable/seeable of the infinite God. In such a sphere of infinitude ('sphere' is even a wrong term regarding the subject of infinitude, but in a manner of speaking and for the sake of discussion I use the term) we know nothing other than what is revealed/declared by the Word of God....i.e....Him that was in the midst of the burning bush/the Creator/the Son. I will be what I will be. I Am that I Am.
I would say to you......Don't worry about it! When/if trinitarians (those who believe in the Father/Son/HolySpirit concept) say "Jesus is God", there is much more to it than the logical finite consequences you seem to be so infactuated with. (That's not the end of our full statement anyway)
God is infinte. You cannot know infinite by any other means than a declaration.
I Am that I Am. I will be what I will be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
slaveOFchrist
Little Guppy
Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 30
Location: NY
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Dust wrote: | | God is infinte. You cannot know infinite by any other means than a declaration. |
Ah! Inevitably we are told to use the language of "mystery" in order to side step the imposing force of reason. May I make a distinction? (Trinitarians love distinctions). I am not suggesting we can even understand 1% of who God is. What I'm saying, is that I'm trying to understand the Trinity (which is man's interpretation of who God is) and the Atonement (which is easy to understand). The two just don't mix and for that reason we have to deny one of them. Which do you deny? Or shall we coax ourselves by saying, "because the Trinity is a mystery, I don't need to understand it." This is merely side-stepping the issue and it is offensive to those of us who are then told that if we do not believe in the Trinity that we are "heretics" who are beyond the pale of salvation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: Re: The Trinity & The Atonement |
|
|
| slaveOFchrist wrote: | As I have studied the doctrines of the Trinity and the Atonement I have more and more been convinced that they are in conflict with each other. One way to express this contradiction is:
If Jesus is God then he is immortal
If Jesus did not die then our sins are not paid for |
Hello slave of Christ,
The doctrine of the the Trinity is not directly taught in the Bible though plural deity can be realized.
The doctrine of the atonement was not part of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Being a sharp student of the words of Jesus surely you have noticed that Jesus taught that God was already a forgiving Father, people were already saved pre-cross, that his kingdom was not of this world.
The gospel of Jesus was distorted after he left by well intentioned Jewish converts to the new religion of Christianity as they sowed new wine skins onto old ones. In the Jewish mind "sacrifices" were the only thing that could redeem man to God, so when Jesus' gospel made no allowance for sacrifice and he submitted himself in love to the barbarous cruelty of death at the hands of fanatical religious people, the Jewish converts interpreted that as a "final sacrifice by an unblemished man".
So when Paul, a great man, but who was not taught by Christ, set out to found a new religion, he brought ideas from Pagan religions then present at the time. Paul made compromises to the gospel, weather he realized it or not, for the sake of spreading this new religion which he felt he had been commanded to do. At the expense of the core gospel, Christianity grew in numbers. No less then three (3) Pagan and Mystery religions, which predate Christ in that age, had stories of blood sacrifice which found there way into the Christian religion, a religion about Jesus.
The religion of Jesus was about salvation through grace, a personal surrender of our will to the will of God. It was about God's humbling and abundant Love for all of Mankind. Jesus referred to the body of believers as "the kingdom of heaven", not a physical church. In Judaism God was the Father of the nation of Israel, in Jesus' gospel, God is the Father of each individual. In Judaism Jews were Gods racially chosen people, In Jesus' gospel their is neither Jew nor Gentile, all of mankind are Gods chosen people. In Judaism the nation of Israel would become a material, literal kingdom. In Jesus' gospel the kingdom is "not of this world"- spiritual, wherein God the Father rules in the heart of mankind.
In the gospel of Jesus, we are saved by making an internal commitment to seek and to do the will of God.
In Paul's Christianity, we are saved by the human sacrifice of the person of Jesus Christ under some sort of crude barter system that "buys mans salvation" from a persuadable God.
In Jesus' gospel, man has a choice not to sin, repents and accepts that responsibility, thus repudiating the self deluded Hellenistic concepts of inherited sin; " Go and sin no more."
In Christianity man is powerless over sin, he does the symbolic weekly eating of flesh and drinking of the blood that convinced God to forgive man.
In the gospel of Jesus, the weekly ritual was for remembrance that he had been with us, the bread was "the bread of life" and "the cup" was symbolic of the outpouring of a new dispensation of grace and truth; an enlarged revelation of the person of God the Father and his love for all mankind on this broken and dysfunctional world, in the life of his son Jesus.
In Christianity, Jesus' pronouncements were progressively distorted into something that is but a shadow of his life giving message while in the flesh. The gospel is about his life as it revealed the personality of God. Christianity is about his death.
Christianity today is largely a social institution, the gospel of Jesus was an exclusive relationship between God and man.
Colter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
