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Is Jesus God ?


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costean berean
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Joined: 03 Sep 2007
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Location: Missoula , MT.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Is Jesus God ? Reply with quote
The Bible tell's us that Jesus " recieved " all his power and authority. This clearly indicates he at one time did not posses it. God has always had his power and authority and has never had a need to recieve that which he fully posses. How can Jesus then be almighty and under authority.
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Steven3
Lion King



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205

Location: UK
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:20 am    Post subject: Re: Is Jesus God ? Reply with quote
costean berean wrote:
The Bible tell's us that Jesus " recieved " all his power and authority. This clearly indicates he at one time did not posses it. God has always had his power and authority and has never had a need to recieve that which he fully posses. How can Jesus then be almighty and under authority.


I'd like to see anyone try arguing with that Very Happy
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kejonn
Show Poodle



Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Here's a good passage to explain too:
    Luk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.
    Luk 4:17 And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written,
    Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
    because he has anointed me
    to proclaim good news to the poor.
    He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives
    and recovering of sight to the blind,
    to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
    Luk 4:19 “to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
    Luk 4:20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
    Luk 4:21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”

Just curious, but why would the perfect author who obviously would have a perfect memory of the scripture he inspired need to read anything? God should already know all of the scripture without having to read anything. I must thank Steven for pointing out the following because I had previously overlooked it:

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man.

Would God not already have perfect wisdom and stature? Just add this to the many indications that Yeshua is not God.
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Abenadar
Tadpole



Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would add 1st Corinthians 15. Referencing Jesus as a man, pointing out that Jesus is subject to God and working for him, that all that is subject to Jesus was made that way by God, pointing out that God is in no way subject to Jesus while the reverse is true, showing that Jesus will turn over his rule of the kingdom on earth to God to reinforce the absolute authority of God...all good stuff.
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Pete
Grizzly Bear



Joined: 31 May 2006

Posts: 746

Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Jesus God ? Reply with quote
Steven3 wrote:
costean berean wrote:
The Bible tell's us that Jesus " recieved " all his power and authority. This clearly indicates he at one time did not posses it. God has always had his power and authority and has never had a need to recieve that which he fully posses. How can Jesus then be almighty and under authority.


I'd like to see anyone try arguing with that :D



God, in the Bible is Elohim, which is a compound noun akin to “family.” Family is a singular noun with many members. In Biblical terms, Elohim, then, describes the family of God the Father, with the Father as the supreme head. He has a Son, Jesus Christ, who is the eldest, and heir to all things. Christ possesses the spiritual genes of the Father, and is therefore a member of the God family, and as such, is a God.

In this family there are many sons and daughters that are also members of the God family Elohim: Romans 8:14; For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Also, 2 Corinthians 6:18; "And will be a Father unto you and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."
The Son, Jesus Christ, existed with the Father before beginning, and was instrumental in the creation. In John 17:5 we read: "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." He was present at the beginning; Hebrews 1:2; "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom he also made the worlds;" and he will be here at the end. 1 Corinthians 15:28; "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Nothing in the Bible tells us that God is a trinity of three coequal gods that are a closed corporation, and that man was simply created to go to heaven and strum on a harp, or sing in a heavenly choir for all eternity. God is recreating himself. That is why we exist. The reason why we exist on earth the way we do is another interesting story.
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galen
Ferret



Joined: 22 May 2005

Posts: 115

Location: Maine
PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jesus is my Lord, my master, and the head of the body of Christ.

To establish a relationship of master and servant, does not imply that the master is the Creator of the Heavens and Earth. Rather it only says that one is lesser and in obedience to the other.

Poor vocabulary habits cause some people to confuse phrases.

Jesus is the son of Elohim.

And many will call Jesus their master, their god.

Both Elohim [El Shaddai, Jehovah] is my God, and Jesus His son is my god.

Just because I can call both 'god' does not make both to be the creators of the universe. Not any more than when your wife calls you 'Lord' would make you her creator.

When you bring the word 'god' into this, and insist upon confusing what this word means, it causes great confusion.
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf



Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:51 am    Post subject: trinity discussion Reply with quote
So could you explain please 'your current understanding' of what / what a 'god' is?

Thanks
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galen
Ferret



Joined: 22 May 2005

Posts: 115

Location: Maine
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The deity of Abraham, and Isaac, of Joseph and Moses; was given many titles; and He gave Himself a sacred name which could not be uttered except in the holy of holies.

Among those titles we see that He is the Creator, He is our Judge, He is all powerful, etc.

Our culture ignores most of those names, and simply calls Him 'God'.

But the phrase 'god' is used many times through out the Bible, and not always does it refer it Our Creator, Our Judge, the All Powerful.
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ragman13
Alley Cat



Joined: 07 Jul 2007

Posts: 193
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok ya'll I will bite.

Creation has been brought up a few times here on this thread and I want you to reconcile these verses for me since you believe that Christ Jesus is not God.

1st verse- Isaiah 44:24 (NASB)
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,
"I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The LORD states here repeatedly that He alone created all things.

2nd verse-Colossians 1:16,17 (NASB)
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Here it is clearly stated that Jesus created the Heavens and The Earth. How is it then that the LORD tells us that He alone created all things but here Christ is said to have created all things. If you are a JW you get around this by changing the verse to fit your doctrine. But the watchtower missed another verse that tells us the same thing.

3rd verse John 1:3 (NASB)
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Ok guys explain to me how it is that you can reconcile these verses.
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf



Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: trinity discussion Reply with quote
ragman13 wrote:
Ok ya'll I will bite.
Creation has been brought up a few times here on this thread and I want you to reconcile these verses for me since you believe that Christ Jesus is not God.

1st verse- Isaiah 44:24 (NASB)
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,

Who 'gave life to Christ?'
Ans: God did
Proof: - For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority . . . (John 5:26, 27) KJV

NB: Not only did God 'give life' to Christ, but Christ also had to be 'given' authority.
You can't be 'given' anything if it is already inherently yours. Obviously therefore, to be 'given' life, you did not pre-exist or 'have life' (as we understand it) before you were 'given' a literal life.
Likewsie, to be 'given' authority means you had no authority wnat soever inherently, and only obtained authority from another who did have it inherently and was willing to share it. (Temporarily: 1 Cor. 15:27 - 28) KJV

ragman13 wrote:
"I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone,

The LORD states here repeatedly that He alone created all things.
The LORD is God and the Lord is Christ. They are not coequal -

Psalm 110: 1 KJV

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. Paul must be understood within his Jewish contexts. (p.160)
In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title “Lord” conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. When John wrote his almost-Gnostic Gospel almost a half-century later, his use of the “Word” as a pre-existent form is used within Jewish context as well—the same context he used for words like glory, spirit, divine wisdom, and others. “When Paul and John spoke about Jesus as though he had some kind of pre-existent life, they were not suggesting that he was a second divine ‘person’ in the later Trinitarian sense. They were indicating that Jesus had transcended temporal and individual modes of existence. Because the ‘power’ and ‘wisdom’ that he represented were activities that derived from God, he had in some way expressed ‘what there was from the beginning.’”35

The Jews were absolute monotheists. So was Paul. The Jewish Messiah is not a divine figure. The Messiah would be an ordinary human being that would do privileged “God-things.” The Son of God was a simple way to express the closeness of the Messiah’s actions to the will and power of God. Only the gods of the pagans had “sons” or offspring. “It should be noted that Paul never called Jesus ‘God.’ He called him the ‘Son of God’ in its Jewish sense. He certainly did not believe that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself; he had simply possessed God’s ‘powers’ and ‘spirit,’ which manifested God’s activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.”36

Also it needs to be kept in mind, although I mentioned it earlier, Jesus never claimed that his divine powers were his alone or special to him. On many occasions he promised his followers that if they had faith they could exercise these same powers. “By faith, of course, he did not mean adopting the correct theology but cultivating an inner attitude of surrender and openness to God.”37 This inner attitude is the Kingdom of God that Jesus proclaimed:

An infusion of God consciousness in the here and now. This was a consciousness or oneness with God that was not only attainable but expected. That’s why Jesus could say repeatedly, “Greater things than I do will you do.” (Composer adds: John 14:12 KJV)
(p.162) (My BOLD - How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

I always wondered how the trinitarian god jesus could say that other mortals, could do 'greater things' than a god / godman?

36 Armstrong, History of God, p. 83.
37 Armstrong, History of God, p. 82.

ragman13 wrote:
2nd verse-Colossians 1:16,17 (NASB)
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Here it is clearly stated that Jesus created the Heavens and The Earth. How is it then that the LORD tells us that He alone created all things but here Christ is said to have created all things. If you are a JW you get around this by changing the verse to fit your doctrine. But the watchtower missed another verse that tells us the same thing.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, . . . (Col. 1:15,16) KJV
Very briefly, the context shows that Christ is 'the image' of the invisible God. An 'image' is NOT the Original nor the source. If I place a candle in front of a mirror, I see a reflection / manifestation / image of the original candle. So too with Christ who is that 'image'. He has all the characteristics of that candle, but without the original source, he has nothing. (John 5:30) KJV
The 'invisible God' is the creator of all things and not the 'image' Christ.

ragman13 wrote:
3rd verse John 1:3 (NASB)
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Ok guys explain to me how it is that you can reconcile these verses.

"All things were made by him" - John is apparently alluding to the creation recorded in Genesis. God spoke, and it was done (e.g. "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light." Gen. 1:3. Notice another allusion - John 1:7, 8). But this creation was not accompanied by Christ, but by the "logos" of God. This is indicated by several passages:
"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth." "For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast." (Psa. 33:6, 9). See also Psa. 107:20; 147:15, 18, 19; Isa. 55:11.
" . . . by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water . . . But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." (2 Peter 3:5, 7).
See also Hebrews 11:3 cf. Jeremiah 10:12, 13.5
Angels, prophets and Christ have been vehicles by which God has expressed his logos. Christ is the complete manifestation of the logos - "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:9). It was the "logos" which was in the beginning with God, not Christ. When the "word was made flesh" (John 1:14) then, and then only, Christ became the "Word". Christ is called the Word (Rev. 19:13 cf. 1 John 1:1; Luke 1:2) since his doctrine and words came from his Father (John 7:16; 17:14). He was the logos lived out in speech and action, not merely written on scrolls. (Extract from: WRESTED SCriptures by Ron Abel)

Cheers!
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galen
Ferret



Joined: 22 May 2005

Posts: 115

Location: Maine
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ragman13 wrote:
Ok ya'll I will bite.
...

Colossians 1:16,17



1. As with all good biblical exegesis, it is important to note the context of the verses and why they would be written and placed where they are. Reading the Book of Colossians reveals that the Colossian Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had, in practice, forsaken their connection with the Head, Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18 and 19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ’s headship over his Church, and the epistle to the Colossians provided just that.

2. These verses cannot be affirming the Trinity because they open with Christ being “the image [eikon] of the invisible God.” If Christ were “God,” then the verse would simply say so, rather than that he was the “image” of God. The Father is plainly called “God” in dozens of places, and this would have been a good place to say that Jesus was God. Instead, we are told that Christ is the image of God. If one thing is the “image” of another thing, then the “image” and the “original” are not the same thing. The Father is God, and that is why there is no verse that calls the Father the image of God. Calling Jesus the image of God squares beautifully with his statement that, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9 and 10).

There are Trinitarian theologians who assert that the word eikon (from which we get the English word “icon,” meaning “image,” or “representation”) means “manifestation” here in Colossians, and that Christ is the manifestation of God. We believe that conclusion is unwarranted. The word eikon occurs 23 times in the New Testament, and it is clearly used as “image” in the common sense of the word. It is used of the image of Caesar on a coin, of idols that are manmade images of gods, of Old Testament things that were only an image of the reality we have today and of the “image” of the beast that occurs in Revelation. 2 Corinthians 3:18 says that Christians are changed into the “image” of the Lord as we reflect his glory. All these verses use “image” in the common sense of the word, i.e., a representation separate from the original. 1 Corinthians 11:7 says, “A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God.” Just as Christ is called the image of God, so men are called the image of God. We are not as exact an image as Christ is because we are marred by sin, but nevertheless the Bible does call us the “image” of God. Thus, the wording about being the image of God is the same for us as it is for Christ. We maintain that the words in the Word must be read and understood in their common or ordinary meaning unless good reason can be given to alter that meaning. In this case, the common meaning of “image” is “likeness” or “resemblance,” and it is used that way every time in the New Testament. Surely if the word “image” took on a new meaning for those times it referred to Christ, the Bible would let us know that. Since it does not, we assert that the use of “image” is the same whether it refers to an image on a coin, an image of a god, or for both Christ and Christians as the image of God.

3. God delegated to Christ His authority to create. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating “one new man” (his Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38), the Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, that is, the “new man,” their new nature (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 4:24).

4. The Church of the Body of Christ was a brand new entity, created by Christ out of Jew and Gentile. He had to also create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church—see Rev. 1:1, “his angel”) and in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth—see Rom. 12:4-8; Eph. 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible” (1:16).

5. Many people think that because Colossians 1:16 says, “For by him all things were created” that Christ must be God, but the entire verse must be read carefully with an understanding of the usage of words and figures of speech. The study of legitimate figures of speech is an involved one, and the best work we know of was done in 1898 by E. W. Bullinger. It is titled Figures of Speech Used in the Bible and is readily available, having been reprinted many times.

First, the student of the Bible (indeed, of language and life) must be aware that when the word “all” (or “every” or “everything”) is used, it is often used in a limited sense. People use it this way in normal speech in countries and languages all over the world. I (John S.) had an experience of this just the other day. It was late at night and I wanted a cookie before bed. When I told my wife that I wanted a cookie, she said, “The kids ate all the cookies.” Now of course our kids did not eat all the cookies in the world. The implied context was the cookies in the house, and our kids had eaten all of them. This is a good example of “all” being used in a limited sense, and the Bible uses it that way too.

For example, when Absalom was holding a council against his father, David, 2 Samuel 17:14 says that “all the men of Israel” agreed on advice. “All” the men of Israel were not there, but the verse means “all” who were there. Another example is Jeremiah 26:8, which says that “all the people” seized Jeremiah to put him to death, but the context makes it very clear that “all the people” were not even present, and people who came to the scene later wanted to release Jeremiah. 1 John 2:20 (KJV) says of Christians, “ye know all things.” Surely there is no Christian who actually believes that he knows everything. The phrase is using a limited sense of “all,” which is determined by the context.

The point is that whenever one reads the word “all,” a determination must be made as to whether it is being used in the wide sense of “all in the universe,” or in the narrow sense of “all in a certain context.” We believe the narrow sense is called for in Colossians 1:16, and we give more evidence for that in point 6 below (For more on the limited sense of “all,” see the note on John 2:24).

6. An important figure of speech in Colossians 1:16 is called “encircling.” Bullinger notes that the Greeks called this figure of speech epanadiplosis, while the Romans labeled it inclusio (p. 245), and he gives several pages of examples from the Bible to document the figure. He writes: “When this figure is used, it marks what is said as being completed in one complete circle…giving completeness of the statement that is made.” With that in mind, note that the phrase “all things were created” occurs at the beginning and end of the verse, encircling the list of created things: “For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.” The things that are “created” are not rocks, trees, birds and animals, because those things were created by God. These things, “thrones, powers, rulers and authorities,” are the powers and positions that were needed by Christ to run his Church, and were created by him for that purpose. The figure of speech known as “encircling” helps us to identify the proper context of “all things”—that it is the narrower sense of the word “all,” and refers to the things needed to administer the Church.

7. The phrase in verse 17 that “he is before all things” has been used to try to prove that Jesus existed before everything else. However, the word “before” (here pro) can refer to time, place or position (i.e., superiority). This leads us to conclude that the whole point of the section is to show that Christ is “before,” i.e., “superior to” all things, just as the verse says. If someone were to insist that time is involved, we would point out that in the very next verse Christ is the “firstborn” from the dead, and thus “before” his Church in time as well as in position.

Smile
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Steven3
Lion King



Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205

Location: UK
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Galen
That was probably post the best post I have seen on any forum in years - in scripture and reasoning and writing style.

Nice to meet you
Steven
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull



Joined: 20 Mar 2007

Posts: 409
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Galen,

Judaism didn't believe in Jesus either, they also resorted to the same "legalism". I think Jesus said it best when he stated that they swat at gnats but swallow camels.

Either way we are left with:

1) God the Father

2) the Son of God with the powers of God though somehow he is not a God

3) and the holy spirit which has volition but is spoken of as a power separate from the person of the Father and Son

As Jesus said, it is entirely possible to believe "about him" but not "in him".
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galen
Ferret



Joined: 22 May 2005

Posts: 115

Location: Maine
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Colter wrote:
Hi Galen,

Judaism didn't believe in Jesus either, they also resorted to the same "legalism". I think Jesus said it best when he stated that they swat at gnats but swallow camels.

Either way we are left with:

1) God the Father

2) the Son of God with the powers of God though somehow he is not a God

3) and the holy spirit which has volition but is spoken of as a power separate from the person of the Father and Son

As Jesus said, it is entirely possible to believe "about him" but not "in him".


Don't forget that we are greater then he.
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf



Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: trinity discussion Reply with quote
Welcome and a word of caution Galen.

Colter has little faith in the Bible.

He refers to his preferred bible called the Book of Urantia or the Urantia Book.

Cheers!
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