Hope of seeing relatives again??

MoJo · Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:51 am Post subject:

buckley, thankyou for your work. It was well done and very clear. Very Happy

mijt1 · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:35 pm Post subject:

In reply to AP

If all former members were painted apostates then that would be a broad stroke. An apostate is not labled such because he is a former member but if a former member spends his time and energy trying to turn other JW’s from their faith by telling lies about the organization or other members then they are apostates.

I cannot speak for every member that has left, however I can tell you that only a very tiny amount that leave become what we call apostate and usually the reason they leave has nothing to do with finding out anything, unless they have been influenced by apostates which sadly does happen although rarely.

Every year a number of JW’s are dissfellowshiped from the congregations. Usually for immorality, adultery etc. No JW is actually dissfellowshiped for what he has done, he is only dissfellowshiped if he is unrepentent. Only baptized JW’s can be dissfellowshiped and every
JW knows that the congregations must be kept clean.

Disfellowshiping is a sad thing to happen to any congregation and is only done as a last resort. Some that are disfellowshiped eventually repent and return to the congregation, some leave for good, a very small number become bitter and seek to twist the truth and lead
others, usually their family members away. It nearly always involves the internet, they trawl the internet believing everything they read and send it to others.

They tell others how they were treated unfairly, how they were only disfellowshiped because the elders didnt like them. One lie that’s commonly told on the internet is that JW elders are
sinister men that manipualate and control the congregations for their own selfish ends and that all the members of the congregations are scared or them.

I am a Jehovahs witness, I know our elders and I work with one every day. I know that the sadest thing elders have to do is anounce to the congregation that someone has been
disfellowshiped. It is the job of our elders to shepherd and look after the congregation. It takes a lot of their time and energy, they do not get paid for it, their is no selfish gain. They do it out of love for god and for the congregation. So when I read anything to the
contrary on the internet I dismiss it as the rubbish that it is.

At work once a dissfellowshiped person on realising I was a witness tried to tell me about someone else who was disfellowshiped and gave a talk at one of our circuit assemblies.
When I asked him how that was possible he told me this person bribed our circuit overseer. Not being a JW ap you cant really apreciate how ridiculous that statement was.
Thats just an example of the many silly lies that are often told about us.

It was said on this website by an ex JW that JW’s only help others because it makes them look good in the media. The apostle Paul said “Do good to all but especially to those in the
faith. And that is what we do. JW’s have never courted the media. Almost every year in countries where hurricanes hit, hundereds of non witnesses have there homes repaired by witnesses, JW’s will always help their neighbours. These things are rarely reported in the media, I only know of it because I read the experiences in our magazines.
What possible reason could this person have for making the above statement?

But I dont believe these letters are from the governing body. Our governing body does not send out letters to just anyone knowing full well they could end up on the internet.
Also I have been told by someone speaking from experience that these letters are often twisted or made up.

He did not leave because of anything he read he was disfellowshiped for adultery. This was several years ago, he has since returned to the congregation and is serving in the full time ministry in Scotland. He has said he would never use the internet again.

If you read my posts on the Babylon forum you will see even though you dont believe it yourself why I am convinced I have the truth and even though I have seen what these websites say about us, I am certainly not going to waste my time scrutinizing them.

apostonaut · Tadpole Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Hi Buckley,

Thanks for all the info, but I was actually looking to get your own thoughts on the matter, not a WT book.

The group of 144,000 is mentioned only a couple times in scripture so we shouldn't need pages and pages of material. I'm interested in what it is in Revelation where this group is described that leads you to believe they are "taken" from the earth to heaven. By the way, I'm not suggesting that I am in disagreement with you; I just would like to know why you believe the group is in heaven as opposed to earth.

Kind regards,

Ap.

apostonaut · Tadpole Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Hello mijt1,

YOU SAID:
"If all former members were painted apostates then that would be a broad stroke. An apostate is not labled such because he is a former member"

Your previous post made this statement, which you can see is conflicting:

"I have noticed that X members (refered to as apostates) of a religion..."

I will disregard the previous statement.

I consider myself a fairly reasonable person, therefore I do not doubt that lies have indeed been told about Jehovah's witnesses (just as they have been told about Baptists, Catholics, Mormons, etc). JWs are certainly not unique in this respect. However, by the same token, I doubt very much that every negative or critical thing that is said about the JWs is false as you seem to believe. I certainly think it wrong to make a blanket statement about it one way or the other. You admit to not having scrutinized such websites, so all I am saying is that is seems improper for you to categorize them all as "lies". Do you agree?

YOU SAID:
"But I dont believe these letters are from the governing body. Our governing body does not send out letters to just anyone knowing full well they could end up on the internet."

Actually I know nothing about these letters. I simply noted that a Moonie or a Branch Davidian would probably say the same thing.

Since I don't know what the reference to the letters is all about, all I can say is they may or may not be from your governing body. If I was a Jehovah's Witness, and the letters were incriminating in some way, I hope I would have the courage to investigate the matter.

You said "our governing body does not send out letters to just anyone". This sounds very elitist. Am I "just anyone"? Are you? I would certainly hope that if I wrote a letter to your leaders they would respond to me. If they wouldn't, I would take it as a warning sign.

YOU SAID:
"Also I have been told by someone speaking from experience that these letters are often twisted or made up."

Sounds like hearsay to me. Again, all I am saying is you should not be so quick to judge. Maybe they are from your g.b., maybe not. If you are concerned you could probably easily find out.

I did ask you a couple questions in my previous post that you did not respond to. I will include them here and ask you to respond if you are willing. Thanks.

"
You said that the author of the article wrote in regard to the "Hare Krishna, The Family, Children of God Scientology, Rosicrucianism and the Seventh Day Adventists."

So here are my questions for you:

Is it possible that the "apostates" from these groups have ENTIRELY VALID REASONS for leaving their former religions?

Is it possible that these people now speak up about their former religion because they recognize it as false and they in fact care about those current members who are yet being deceived?
"

By the way, I will be happy to answer the questions you posed in another post. When I have a free moment, I will post a response.

Kind regards,

Ap.

mijt1 · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 am Post subject:

You said "our governing body does not send out letters to just anyone". This sounds very elitist. Am I "just anyone"? Are you? I would certainly hope that if I wrote a letter to your leaders they would respond to me. If they wouldn't, I would take it as a warning sign.

If you wrote they would respond

Is it possible that the "apostates" from these groups have ENTIRELY VALID REASONS for leaving their former religions?

Yes

Is it possible that these people now speak up about their former religion because they recognize it as false and they in fact care about those current members who are yet being deceived?

Yes I accept they may genuinely be concerned and they have every right to say jehovahs witnesses are a cult that brainwashes its members, they are a dangerous cult, their elders are wife swapping thieves, they only do good to look good in the media and whatever else they want to say.
We have free speech after all. They have the right to call us liars just as I have the same right to not believe them.

I cannot speak for every case but for the ones i can i have not seen any genuine concern. I have seen family members plead to be left alone by the disfellowshiped one, saying they are not interested in reading their information from the internet. I know one JW lady who nearly had a breakdown because her son would not stop posting stuff through her door no matter how much she asked him not to.

Anyway we could go round and round on this so lets just agree we have differances on this subject.

Nobby · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:19 pm Post subject: Note

Hi mijt1,
Please if only for my benefit, would you post a name so I could know who you are talking to. I try to read all posts, but sometimes I have to re-read over several posts before I know who you're talking to. Wink

thank you.

mijt1 · Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Note

apostonaut · Tadpole Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Hello mijt1,

Thanks for answering my questions.

You agree that "apostates" from Hare Krishna, Scientology, Children of God, etc. may have entirely valid reasons for leaving their former religions. So why is it different for Jehovah's Witnesses? Why is it that Scientology apostates have good motives but Jehovah's Witness apostates must have bad motives? Speaking from experience, I have talked to JW "apostates" and Mormon "apostates" and found both to be equally concerned about the spiritual welfare of those whom they seek to help.

apostonaut · Tadpole Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Hello mijt1,

Here are my answers to the questions you posed:

YOU SAID:
"Did the many Witnesses that died in Nazi concentration camps when all they had to do to walk free was sign a piece of paper, all die in vain? Why was this so called dangerous cult making this stand while the so called true christian church was using its churches for recruiting stations for war."

If you are asking my opinion as to whether the JWs who died in German concentration camps during the war died in vain, then I must say yes I believe they did. Their death was a horrible tragedy nevertheless, as was the death of so many others who died beside them for taking a similar stand.

Are you aware that the JWs are not the only minority group that was persecuted by Hitler? Are you aware of the persecution Hitler directed at the Masons for example? If you are interested, here is a good article on the subject:

http://www.freedomdomain.com/namason2.html

Here are some excerpts for you to consider:

Quote: "The price he paid was exile to the Lipari islands. After nearly going blind there, he died soon afterwards. HUNDREDS OF OTHER PROMINENT MASONS SHARED THE HARSH LIPARI EXILE WITH HIM. At the peak of the anti-Mason agitation, in 1925-27, blackshirt strong-arm squads looted the homes of well-known Masons in Milan, Florence and other cities, and murdered at least 100 of them."

Quote: "The Nazis acted more swiftly. Immediately on Hitler's rise to power, the ten Grand Lodges of Germany were dissolved. MANY AMONG THE PROMINENT DIGNITARIES AND MEMBERS OF THE ORDER WERE SENT TO CONCENTRATION CAMPS. The Gestapo seized the membership lists of the Grand Lodges and looted their libraries and collections of Masonic objects."

Quote: "The persecution was carried over into Austria when the country was captured by the Nazis. THE MASTERS OF THE VARIOUS VIENNA LODGES WERE IMMEDIATELY CONFINED IN THE MOST NOTORIOUS CONCENTRATION CAMPS, INCLUDING THE HORRIBLE LIVING HELL AT DACHAU IN BAVARIA. The same procedure was repeated when Hitler took over Czechoslovakia, then Poland."

Should I assume that Freemasonry is the way to go since the Masons were persecuted simply for being Masons? Or maybe Catholicism since nearly 3,000 Catholic priests were murdered by the Nazi's in Poland (about 1/3 of the parish priests in Poland).

If you believe that Christians and Catholics were not persecuted under Hitler's regime, including being sentenced to concentration camps, then you are mistaken. Hitler himself is on record as saying that "one is either a German or a Christian. You cannot be both." (Hermann Rauschnigg, The Voice of Destruction, GP Putnam, New York, 1940, p. 41.) Why not research it yourself?

Certainly there were some within the church who acquiesced to Hitler, just as there were some Jehovah's Witnesses who did the same, signing that "piece of paper" you mentioned.

Hitler was a murderer who targeted any group whose loyalty was not to him. This included Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Masons, 7th Day Adventists, JWs, and many other groups.

YOU SAID:
"I would hope you also felt part of an international brotherhood undivided by race or national barriers. When I see the conduct of witnesses in countries like Rwanda, Northern Ireland, Israel etc it really strenthens my faith. How do you feel now that you are a part of christendom when you see its conduct in these countries?"

Sure I feel part of an international brotherhood undivided by race or national barriers. Its not really fair to judge every Christian the world over ("Christendom" as you call it) based on the actions of such a small slice, is it? If some Jehovah's Witness elders were involved in child molestation, for example, would it be fair for me to brand all Jehovah's Witness elders as child molesters? Would it be fair for me to suggest that you are part of an organization that does not properly shepherd its flock because of the actions of the child molesters in your ranks?

There is much good accomplished by Christianity around the world that strengthens my faith, for example the tremendous charity and missionary efforts of the Church. You seem to want to isolate the "bad" about Christianity and ignore the good. Isn't this what you accuse JW apostates of doing?

YOU SAID:
"Why is it that this dangerous cult can claim to have the identifying mark of true christians. Love among themselves, no part of the world, preaching a united message of the good news of the kingdom in fulfilment of Mathew 24:14 among others."

Anyone can claim anything they want, but it doesn't make it so. I assume every "Christian" group claims to have this mark. And the pacifist groups such as Mennonites, Quakers, JWs, Adventists, etc. probably point to their pacifism as evidence of their "love" for one another.

It's pretty easy to love your friends, isn't it? But Jesus also said to love your enemies, didn't He? Do Jehovah's Witnesses love their enemies, or hate them? What does the Watchtower teach?

QUOTE: "We must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest." (The Watchtower, 10/1/52, p599.)

QUOTE: "in order to hate what is bad a Christian MUST HATE THE PERSON with whom the badness is inseparably linked." (The Watchtower, 7/15/61, p420.)

QUOTE: "a Christian must hate (in the Biblical sense of the word) those who have inseparably attached themselves to the badness." (The Watchtower, 10/1/93 p.19)

Christ never taught such hatred of ones enemies. Hitler did.

As far as being "no part of the world", the issue here appears to be one of interpretation. JWs take this to an extreme, essentially removing themselves from society altogether (just like many other "cultish" pseudo-Christian groups). But you will recall that Jesus also said that Christians would be the "light of the world", and that our light was not to be hidden under a basket. Christians are to be the "salt of the earth". True Christians should serve as a beacon of light and a preserving force in this world, not hiding away from society in their private homes and kingdom halls, "under a basket" so to speak.

You asked about preaching a unified message. With respect, I consider it sheer arrogance for Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons to lift themselves up as those who are fulfilling the great commission given by Christ. The missionary work done by "Christendom" over the centuries and down to this day DWARFS that done by Jehovah's Witnesses. I understand that the founder of the JWs was first a Presbyterian who then became an Adventist before starting the watchtower religion. You should ask yourself how it was that this man was raised as a Christian, had access to a bible, and had Adventist preachers to tutor him in the United States of America if not for the global missionary work of the Christian church.

YOU SAID:
"And yet christendom not by any stretch of the imagination can claim to have gods blessing or be his represntetive on earth."

This is simply your subjective opinion. My opinion is this: There is false religion and there is true religion, and indeed, false and true "religionists" who will exist side by side until the harvest time. Perhaps the difference between your and my belief is that I do not expect an "organization" to be saved - I expect individual Christians to be saved regardless of any church affiliations. There is one name under heaven by which we may be saved and it is not the name of any organization. (Acts 4:12)

Kind regards,

Ap.

buckley · Not So Newbie Joined: 12 Dec 2003 Posts: 8

hi ap

buckley here. Going to start this subject one stage at a time. Can i please ask what faith/religion you are?

The bible talks about a new heaven and new earth. did Jehovahs purpose for the earth change when Adam sinned. Meaning, we know that Adam would haved lived forever on earth.

wait for your reply
kind regards

buckley

mijt1 · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:40 am Post subject:

Reply to AP

If you are asking my opinion as to whether the JWs who died in German concentration camps during the war died in vain, then I must say yes I believe they did.

Then the only option would have been for them to have gone to war.
As well as killing others, witnesses would have killed witnesses and that would have excluded them from any right to claim they are christian.
And what of the few german clergy that did stand up to the Nazis, did they also die in vain?

Are you aware that the JWs are not the only minority group that was persecuted by Hitler?

Yes I am well aware of it. Though it doesnt make their suffering any less, these ones were persecuted because Hitler hated them for whatever reason. JW's were persecuted because they would not give total support and aliegence to Hitler and go to war. If they had done so they would have been freed.

Or maybe Catholicism since nearly 3,000 Catholic priests were murdered by the Nazi's in Poland (about 1/3 of the parish priests in Poland).

I dont doubt that number in poland but I do doubt it was anywhere near that number in Germany

If you believe that Christians and Catholics were not persecuted under Hitler's regime, including being sentenced to concentration camps, then you are mistaken.

The only christian and catholics that were sent to concentration camps were the brave few that defied Hitler. The fact remains that the churches suported Hitler.

. In May 1924 the Nazi Party held 32 seats in the German Reichstag. By May 1928 these had dwindled to 12 seats. However, the Great Depression engulfed the world in 1930; riding in its wake, the Nazis made a remarkable recovery, gaining 230 out of 608 seats in the German elections of July 1932. Soon after, former chancellor Franz von Papen, a Papal Knight, came to the Nazis' aid. According to historians, von Papen envisioned a new Holy Roman Empire. His own short tenure as chancellor had been a failure, so now he hoped to gain power through the Nazis. By January 1933, he had mustered support for Hitler from the industrial barons, and through wily intrigues he ensured that Hitler became Germany's chancellor on January 30, 1933. He himself was made vice-chancellor and was used by Hitler to win the support of Catholic sections of Germany. Within two months of gaining power, Hitler dissolved parliament, dispatched thousands of opposition leaders to concentration camps, and began an open campaign of oppressing the Jews.

7 On July 20, 1933, the Vatican's interest in the rising power of Nazism was displayed when Cardinal Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) signed a concordat in Rome between the Vatican and Nazi Germany. Von Papen signed the document as Hitler's representative, and Pacelli there conferred on von Papen the high papal decoration of the Grand Cross of the Order of Pius. In his book Satan in Top Hat, Tibor Koeves writes of this, stating: "The Concordat was a great victory for Hitler. It gave him the first moral support he had received from the outer world, and this from the most exalted source." The concordat required the Vatican to withdraw its support from Germany's Catholic Center Party, thus sanctioning Hitler's one-party "total state." Further, its article 14 stated: "The appointments for archbishops, bishops, and the like will be issued only after the governor, installed by the Reich, has duly ascertained that no doubts exist with respect to general political considerations." By the end of 1933 (proclaimed a "Holy Year" by Pope Pius XI), Vatican support had become a major factor in Hitler's push for world domination.

8 Though a handful of priests and nuns protested Hitler's atrocities-and suffered for it-the Vatican as well as the Catholic Church and its army of clergy gave either active or tacit support to the Nazi tyranny, which they regarded as a bulwark against the advance of world communism. Sitting pretty in the Vatican, Pope Pius XII let the Holocaust on the Jews and the cruel persecutions of Jehovah's Witnesses and others proceed uncriticized. It is ironical that Pope John Paul II, on visiting Germany in May 1987, should glorify the anti-Nazi stand of one sincere priest. What were the other thousands of the German clergy doing during Hitler's reign of terror?

A pastoral letter issued by the German Catholic bishops in September 1939 at the outbreak of World War II provides enlightenment on this point. It reads in part: "In this decisive hour we admonish our Catholic soldiers to do their duty in obedience to the Fuehrer and to be ready to sacrifice their whole individuality. We appeal to the Faithful to join in ardent prayers that Divine Providence may lead this war to blessed success."

In his book The Gathering Storm (1948), Winston Churchill reports that Hitler appointed Franz von Papen as German minister to Vienna for "the undermining or winning over of leading personalities in Austrian politics." Churchill quotes the U.S. minister in Vienna as saying of von Papen: "In the boldest and most cynical manner . . . Papen proceeded to tell me that . . . he intended to use his reputation as a good Catholic to gain influence with Austrians like Cardinal Innitzer."

After Austria had capitulated and Hitler's storm troopers had goose-stepped into Vienna, Catholic cardinal Innitzer ordered that all Austrian churches fly the swastika flag, ring their bells, and pray for Adolf Hitler in honor of his birthday.

This item appeared in the first edition only of The New York Times, December 7, 1941, the same day Nazi Germany's ally Japan attacked Pearl Harbor

'WAR PRAYER' FOR REICH

Catholic Bishops at Fulda Ask Blessing and Victory

By Telephone to THE NEW YORK TIMES

FULDA, Germany, Dec. 6

The Conference of German Catholic Bishops assembled in Fulda has recommended the introduction of a special "war prayer" which is to be read at the beginning and end of all divine services.

The prayer implores Providence to bless German arms with victory and grant protection to the lives and health of all soldiers. The Bishops further instructed Catholic clergy to keep and remember in a special Sunday sermon at least once a month German soldiers 'on land, on sea and in the air."

. "Kill Germans-do kill them," said the bishop of London. And, on the other side, the archbishop of Cologne told Germans: "We command you in the name of God, to fight to the last drop of your blood for the honor and glory of the country."

Certainly there were some within the church who acquiesced to Hitler,

No there were not some. It was the vast majority.

just as there were some Jehovah's Witnesses who did the same, signing that "piece of paper" you mentioned.

It is on record by outside sources including the Holocaust museum in the US that very very few witnesses cracked under Nazi persecution.

Hitler was a murderer who targeted any group whose loyalty was not to him. This included Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Masons, 7th Day Adventists, JWs, and many other groups.

I cannot speak for every group. However there is plenty of documented evidence to show that apart from a brave few, the catholics were a group that were loyal to Hitler.

Sure I feel part of an international brotherhood undivided by race or national barriers

Then your idea of what that means is totally different to mine and shows how our beliefs are oceans apart.

Its not really fair to judge every Christian the world over ("Christendom" as you call it) based on the actions of such a small slice, is it?

I may give the wrong impression sometimes and I dont mean to but i dont judge every christian the world over. There must be countless numbers of god loving christians so It would be unfair to judge them all as one.

f some Jehovah's Witness elders were involved in child molestation, for example, would it be fair for me to brand all Jehovah's Witness elders as child molesters? Would it be fair for me to suggest that you are part of an organization that does not properly shepherd its flock because of the actions of the child molesters in your ranks?

I will comment on that issue that you also raised in your second post later.
I see your point and it is a valid one. As I said many JW's are dissfellowshiped from the congreagations every year for wrongdoing.
it's up to you if you believe what you read that JW's cover up wrongdoing.
i am not going to argue on that point except to assure you they don't.

Whatever problems you can point your finger at with members of our organization and there will always be some, it would be naive of me to say we are all perfect. (I will always maintain though that what you read on the internet about us is grossly exagerated.) i dont believe you can compare any problems we have to the millions that have been killed by christians.

YOU SAID:
"Why is it that this dangerous cult can claim to have the identifying mark of true christians. Love among themselves, no part of the world, preaching a united message of the good news of the kingdom in fulfilment of Mathew 24:14 among others."

Anyone can claim anything they want, but it doesn't make it so. I assume every "Christian" group claims to have this mark. And the pacifist groups such as Mennonites, Quakers, JWs, Adventists, etc. probably point to their pacifism as evidence of their "love" for one another.

what other group can claim to be preaching a united Message?
I have never ever had anyone apart from one mormon aproach me in my life time. Even if they could claim one mark they cant claim all three.

It's pretty easy to love your friends, isn't it? But Jesus also said to love your enemies, didn't He? Do Jehovah's Witnesses love their enemies, or hate them? What does the Watchtower teach?

will reply in a seperate post

As far as being "no part of the world", the issue here appears to be one of interpretation. JWs take this to an extreme, essentially removing themselves from society altogether

That is just simply untrue

But you will recall that Jesus also said that Christians would be the "light of the world", and that our light was not to be hidden under a basket. Christians are to be the "salt of the earth". True Christians should serve as a beacon of light and a preserving force in this world, not hiding away from society in their private homes and kingdom halls, "under a basket" so to speak.

With respect, the above statement is nonsense. every hour of every day all around the world Jehovahs witnesses are out preaching. never do they hide away in their homes or their kingdom halls.
There are far more churches in any area than there are kingdom Halls and I have never had any christian aproach me from and offer to share his faith with me. tell me how christendom is the light of the world?

The missionary work done by "Christendom" over the centuries and down to this day DWARFS that done by Jehovah's Witnesses.

yes we aknowledge the work christendom has done making the bible available to most of the world, and the work done by early missionaries often at the risk of their lives. lets not forget one thing though. Christendom had one thing Jehovahs witnesses didn't and that's a powerfull navy and plenty of gunboats. In the days when man was still exploring the oceans, one pope( I cant remember which one) said that on discovering a new land it was their duty to convert the population to christianity, by force if nessacerry.

Whole populations were forced to convert to christianity and if they didnt they were killed or ill treated by their white christian invaders.
Thousands were killed then too in the name of christianity.
I am not painting all missionaries with the same brush but would Jesus have aproved of these preaching methods? these people were not taught true christianity but a counterfeit form that has caused divisions and hatred down to this day.

So no you cant compare our preaching with christendoms. Our preaching has united people and stopped them from killing eachother and others.
The christians In rwanda that killed eachother in their thousands did not learn their form of christianity from JW's.

Perhaps the difference between your and my belief is that I do not expect an "organization" to be saved - I expect individual Christians to be saved regardless of any church affiliations. There is one name under heaven by which we may be saved and it is not the name of any organization. (Acts 4:12)

perhaps instead of banging our heads together we could discuss that then
you tell me why you believe what you have said above and i will tell you why I believe gods people should be organized

Mick

mijt1 · Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:42 am Post subject:

In reply to AP

Did you get these watchtower quotes off the internet?
Lets put them into context

QUOTE: "We must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest." (The Watchtower, 10/1/52, p599.)

The Lord Jesus said, “Continue to love your enemies.” (Matt. 5:44, NW) And he also said, “Every kind of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in the present system of things nor in that to come.” (Matt. 12:31, 32, NW)

Men may condemn us and still may be forgiven. We do not love them for their hurtful works to us, but there must not be hatred toward them on this account. Rather the commandment is to pray for such persons. But the situation is entirely different when opposers get to a state of antagonism against God and the spirit, so that even regardless of the facts in evidence of Jehovah’s workmanship and power, they distort them and accuse God of wickedness. Such extreme debasement is only identifying them with Satan the great opposer whose end is destruction. Satan is our enemy and he is also God’s enemy. The Lord Jesus was not calling upon us to love those who hated God. His own course of conduct is our guide. When tempted by the Devil he said: ‘Go away Satan, for it is written, It is Jehovah your God you must worship.’ Again he said, “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. . . . he is a liar and the father of the lie.” God has put enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, and enmity means hostility or hatred. We cannot therefore love this world, Satan, or his seed.-Luke 4:8; John 8:44, NW; Gen. 3:15; Jas. 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17
.
11 Haters of God and his people are to be hated, but this does not mean that we will take any opportunity of bringing physical hurt to them in a spirit of malice or spite, for both malice and spite belong to the Devil, whereas pure hatred does not. We must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest. Surely any haters of God are not fit to live on his beautiful earth. The earth will be rid of the wicked and we shall not need to lift a finger to cause physical harm to come to them, for God will attend to that, but we must have a proper perspective of these enemies. His name signifies recompense to the enemies.

QUOTE: "in order to hate what is bad a Christian MUST HATE THE PERSON with whom the badness is inseparably linked." (The Watchtower, 7/15/61, p420.)

Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God’s Word also says to “hate what is bad.” When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked. Indicating that Jesus did not mean for us to love the hardened enemies of Jehovah, David expressed this God-approved attitude: “Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.”-Matt. 5:44; Amos 5:15; Ps. 139:21, 22.

QUOTE: "a Christian must hate (in the Biblical sense of the word) those who have inseparably attached themselves to the badness." (The Watchtower, 10/1/93 p.19)

11 Our study of God’s Word is not merely with a view to filling our head with facts. As we let it penetrate our heart, we also begin to share God’s feelings. How important that is! If we do not develop such feelings, what may result? Though we may be able to repeat what the Bible says, we may, nevertheless, view as desirable what is forbidden, or we may feel that what is required is a burden. It is true that even if we hate what is wrong, we may have a struggle because of human imperfection. (Romans 7:15) But if we do not put forth earnest effort to bring what we are inside into line with what is right, can we expect to please Jehovah, “the examiner of hearts”?-Proverbs 17:3.
12 Godly hate is a powerful protection against wrongdoing, even as godly love makes the doing of what is right a pleasure. (1 John 5:3) Repeatedly the Scriptures urge us to cultivate both love and hate. “O you lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad.” (Psalm 97:10) “Abhor what is wicked, cling to what is good.” (Romans 12:9) Are we doing that?

13 Jehovah has clearly stated his purpose to root the wicked ones out of the earth and to usher in a new earth in which righteousness is to dwell. (Psalm 37:10, 11; 2 Peter 3:13) Lovers of righteousness long for that time to come. They are in full agreement with the psalmist David, who prayed: “O that you, O God, would slay the wicked one! Then even the bloodguilty men will certainly depart from me, who say things about you according to their idea; they have taken up your name in a worthless way-your adversaries.” (Psalm 139:19, 20)

David did not personally long to slay such wicked ones. He prayed that retribution would come at Jehovah’s hand. (Deuteronomy 32:35; Hebrews 10:30) These were not people who had in some way merely offended David personally. They had misrepresented God, taking up his name in a worthless way. (Exodus 20:7) Dishonestly, they professed to serve him, but they were using his name to promote their own schemes. David had no love for those who chose to be God’s adversaries.

Jehovah takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, nor should we. (Ezekiel 33:11) As long as time permits, we endeavor to help such people to learn and apply Jehovah’s ways. But what if some people show intense hatred for Jehovah?
15
Regarding them, the psalmist said: “Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies.” (Psalm 139:21, 22) It was because they intensely hated Jehovah that David looked on them with abhorrence

Christ never taught such hatred of ones enemies. Hitler did.
Was Hitler talking of the same kind of hatred as king David?

apostonaut · Tadpole Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Hi there Buckley,

To answer your first question, I am a Christian.

Regarding God's purpose, I am not sure that we can say for certain just what God's _ultimate_ purpose was. Certainly He told Adam and Eve to "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it", but was this his ultimate purpose for mankind?

Secondly, if you believe in the omniscience of God, then you must accept that He knew (or at least, could have known) that man would rebel, in which case, wasn't it all part of his "purpose"? And if you do not believe in the complete omniscience of God, then I think you have to concede that his plans have already been changed.

I do believe that there will be a "new heaven and a new earth" at the conclusion of Christ's millennial reign.

Kind regards,

Ap.

apostonaut · Tadpole Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Hi Mick (mijt1),

We've got a lot going on here. I don't have a lot of time at the moment, so I will respond to your first comments and then the rest later.

apostonaut · Tadpole Joined: 19 Dec 2003 Posts: 17 Location: Canada

Hi again mijt1. Here is the second part of the response I promised.