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Dust
Tiger
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 849
Location: All over the western U.S.
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 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | The same Council of Nicea that burned people alive and tortured them to believe what that ungodly council concocted, oh! that one. |
I see no such decrees made by this Council. All I can find along these lines are some disputed claims about Pope Athanasius I of Alexandria who was a ranking member of the Council.
From Wikipedia....
| Quote: | | many modern historians who object to this view and point out that such hostile attitude towards Athanasius is based on an unfair judgment of historical sources |
| Quote: | | There are at present two completely opposite views about the personality of Athanasius. While some scholars praise him as an orthodox saint with great character, some see him as a power-hungry politician, or even a violent gangster. |
| composer2005 wrote: | | You also need to read Matt. 7:14 - and see how your self justification of huge numbers disqualifies your doctrine also. |
Hmmm....I'm sure you count yourself among the 2.5 billion professing Christians. However, it may be some of these, professing Christianity today, to whom Jesus will say...'I do not know thee'...as it is written. Also, currently twice as many people on the planet claim not to be Christian, which will take a wider path to accomodate.....not to mention the points in history when Christains were much further in the minority than they are now. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Composer2005 wrote: | | The history and foundations of trinitarianism is that of violence and death threats and torture against those who stood in there way or would not yield to it willingly. |
Laws were imposed no doubt on the ungodly precedents the founders of trinitarianism set in place but needed updating now and again - http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56264
| composer2005 wrote: | | You also need to read Matt. 7:14 - and see how your self justification of huge numbers disqualifies your doctrine also. |
| Dust wrote: | | Hmmm....I'm sure you count yourself among the 2.5 billion professing Christians. |
No, the closest beliefs to mine are the Christ Adelphians, the closest genuine Disciples and followers of Christ's Original non-trinitarian teachings. The term 'Christian' has been perverted so much I do not want to associate with its current day comparison of a trinitarian church which Christ nor his Apostles and earliest followers never ordained nor even considered as legitimate.
| Dust wrote: | | However, it may be some of these, professing Christianity today, to whom Jesus will say...'I do not know thee'...as it is written. Also, currently twice as many people on the planet claim not to be Christian, which will take a wider path to accomodate.....not to mention the points in history when Christains were much further in the minority than they are now. |
2.5. billion is not a small number even by your own comparisons. |
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Dust
Tiger
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 849
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok, so it wasn't the Council of Nicea that burned people alive and tortured them. Do you concede? |
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Dust
Tiger
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 849
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | Hmmm....I'm sure you count yourself among the 2.5 billion professing Christians. |
| composer wrote: | | No, the closest beliefs to mine are the Christ Adelphians |
Ok, so you are not a Christian, but you identify closely with the Christadelphians.
I can follow that. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Dust wrote: | | Ok, so it wasn't the Council of Nicea that burned people alive and tortured them. Do you concede? |
No because they laid the foundation and the trinity church followed those foundations.
Next time I speak to Fortigurn the Librarian I shall ask if records of atrocities by trinitarians are available from that period and not just the atrocities and Laws they imposed after Nicea.
Stephen3 might know we could ask next time he Posts? |
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Dust
Tiger
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 849
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Hey composer,
Just a couple of observations......
I checked out your link (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56264). I see this as making a good case for separation of Church and State, but a specific condemnation of trinitarians, based on this, seems highly unwarrented.
Also, making hard claims based on disputed and fragmented information from the 1st-4th century, and then attempting to understand these situations within a modern frame of reference that is quite different from these ancient time periods, seems irregular as well. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Dust wrote: | Hey composer,
Just a couple of observations......
I checked out your link (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56264). I see this as making a good case for separation of Church and State, but a specific condemnation of trinitarians, based on this, seems highly unwarrented. |
I have highlighted in Red for you Dust!
[2 May, 1648.]
An Enumeration of several errors.; The maintaining and publishing of these with obstinacy shall be felony.
For the preventing of the growth and spreading of Heresie and Blasphemy, Be it Ordained by the Lords and Commons in this present Parliament Assembled, That all such persons as shall from and after the date of this present Ordinance, willingly by Preaching, Teaching, Printing, or Writing, Maintain and publish that there is no God, or that God is not present in all places, doth not know and foreknow all things, or that he is not Almighty, that he is not perfectly Holy, or that he is not Eternal, or that the Father is not God, the Son is not God, or that the Holy Ghost is not God, or that they Three are not one Eternal God: Or that shall in like manner maintain and publish, that Christ is not God equal with the Father, or, shall deny the Manhood of Christ, or that the Godhead and Manhood of Christ are several Natures, or that the Humanity of Christ is pure and unspotted of all sin; or that shall maintain and publish, as aforesaid, That Christ did not die, nor rise from the Dead, nor is ascended into Heaven bodily, or that shall deny his death is meritorious in the behalf of Believers; or that shall maintain and publish as aforesaid, That Jesus Christ is not the Son of God, or that the Holy Scripture (viz.) of the Old Testament, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Ester, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, The Song of Songs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zecharia, Malachi: Of the New Testament, The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, The Acts of the Apostles, Pauls Epistles to the Romans, Corinthians the first, Corinthians the second, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Thessalonians the first, Thessalonians the second, to Timothy the first, to Timothy the second, to Titus, to Philemon, the Epistles to the Hebrews, the Epistle of James, the first and second Epistles of Peter, the first, second, and third Epistles of John, the Epistle of Jude, the Revelation of John, is not the Word of God, or that the Bodies of men shall not rise again after they are dead, or that there is no day of Judgment after death; all such maintaining and publishing of such Error or Errors with obstinacy therein, shall by vertue hereof be adjudged Felony, and all such persons upon complaint and proof made of the same in any of the cases aforesaid, before any two of the next Justices of the Peace for that place or County, by the Oaths of two Witnesses (which said Justices of Peace in such cases shall hereby have power to administer) or confession of the party, the said party so accused shall be by the said Justices of the Peace committed to prison without Bail or Mainprise, until the next Goal delivery to be holden for that place or County, and the Witnesses likewise shall be bound over by the said Justices unto the said Goal delivery to give in their evidence; And at the said Goal delivery the party shall be indicted for Felonious Publishing and maintaining such Errour, and in case the Indictment be found, and the Party upon his Trial shall not abjure his said Errour and defence and maintenance of the same, he shall suffer the pains of death, as in case of Felony without benefit of Clergy. (RED Text by Composer)
In case of Recantation how such shall be dealt with.
But in case he shall recant or renounce and abjure his said errour or errours, and the maintenance and publishing of the same, he shall nevertheless remain in prison untill he shall finde two sureties, being Subsidy men, that shall be bound with him before two or more Justices of the Peace or Goal delivery, that he shall not thenceforth publish or maintain as aforesaid the said errour or errours any more: And the said Justices shall have power hereby to take Bayl in such cases.
Second offence after renouncing.
And be it further Ordained, That in case any person formerly indicted for publishing and maintaining of such erroneous Opinion or Opinions, as aforesaid, and renouncing and abjuring the same, shall nevertheless again publish and maintain his said former errour or errours, as aforesaid, and the same proved as aforesaid, the said party so offending shall be committed to Prison as formerly, and at the next Goal Delivery shall be indicted as aforesaid. And in case the Indictment be then found upon the Trial, and it shall appear that formerly the party was convicted of the same errour, and publishing and maintaining thereof, and renounced and abjured the same, the Offendor shall suffer death as in case of Felony, without benefit of Clergy. (RED Text by Composer)
From: 'May 1648: An Ordinance for the punishing of Blasphemies and Heresies, with the several penalties therein expressed.', Acts and Ordinances of the Interregnum, 1642-1660 (1911), pp. 1133-136. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=56264. Date accessed: 02 September 2007.
In essence 'believe the trinity or be put to death'. (Invariably an agonising death preceded by torture)
| Dust wrote: | | Also, making hard claims based on disputed and fragmented information from the 1st-4th century, and then attempting to understand these situations within a modern frame of reference that is quite different from these ancient time periods, seems irregular as well. |
Obviously trinitarian scholars admit that the doctrine of the trinity formed NO PART of the Original Gospel.
I tire showing the following facts to you Dust because it goes in one of your ears and straight through out the other ear, even though your own trinitarians admit it -
Here it is again plus more - The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:
"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)
Or more recently:
"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28)
27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180
28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980 (My BOLDS)
- - - -
Another trinitarian scholar: That the Son is of the same essence as the Father or cosubstantial with Him is not manifest in any part of Sacred Scripture, either by express words or by certain and immutable deduction. These and other opinions of the Protestants no one can prove from the sacred writings, the tradfitional word of God being laid aside. . . Scripture itself would, in many places, have seemed to exhibit the opposite, unless the Church had taught us otherwise46
46. James Masenius, Apud Sandium, 9-11, cited by Wilson, Concessions, 54.
I quote another Trinitarian scholar: - It must be owned that the doctrine of the Trinity, as it is proposed in our [Church of England] Articles, our Liturgy, our Creeds, is not in so many words taught us in the Holy Scriptures. What we profess in our prayers we nowhere read in Scripture - that the One God, the one Lord, is not only one person but three persons in one substance. There is no such text in the Scripture as this, that "the Unity in Trinity is to be worshipped."
None of the inspired writers has expressly affirmed that in the Trinity none is before or after the other, none is greater or less than the other, but the whole three persons are coeternal together and coequal47 (My BOLDS)
47. Taken from: Bishop George Smalridge, Sixty Sermons Preach'd on Several Occasions. no. 33, 348, cited by Wilson, Unitarian Principles Confirmed by Trinitarian Testimonies, 367. |
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Dust
Tiger
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 849
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | I tire showing the following facts to you Dust because it goes in one of your ears and straight through out the other ear, even though your own trinitarians admit it - |
Hello composer,
Consider this......as I read the material from the web site you provided a link to (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56264), I see the laws imposed as targeting a much broader spectrum than just those who would putforth views counter to the trinity view....for instance, atheists are targeted by these laws as well. Thus, it is not proper to afix the blame and horror of these laws to trinitarians as a group.
The atrocity of these laws actually being put into place has been delt with by the protestant reformation. A movement that properly charged the corrupt Catholic Church with these misdoings, and not trinitarians. The protestant reformation, led by those holding a trinitarian view, eventually led to a total recanting of these unjust laws. By and by this reformation movement also led to the establishment of a new state.
In an effort to avoid the unjust political situation that had fostered the implementation of these particular unjust laws, the founders of this new state established a tenet that still stands today...vis-a-vis...The separation of Church and State.
It is that these founders (most of which held trinitarian views) properly identified the situation, and established a rule that would eventually lead to the total abolition of these old laws that you seem to abhor so much (even beyond their own boarders).
So it is that you actually owe a debt of gratitude to those holding a trinitrian view.....UNLESS, it is, that these laws are really not a central concern of yours, and that your motovation for attacking trinitrians arises from elsewhere.
As far as the admisssions of 'my own trinitarians'....need I remind you that all of mainstream Christianity holds and maintains a trinitarian or trinitarian-like view. That is....they all believe in the Father/Son/HolySpirit concept as outlined in the NT. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | I tire showing the following facts to you Dust because it goes in one of your ears and straight through out the other ear, even though your own trinitarians admit it - |
| Dust wrote: | Hello composer,
Consider this......as I read the material from the web site you provided a link to (http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56264), I see the laws imposed as targeting a much broader spectrum than just those who would putforth views counter to the trinity view....for instance, atheists are targeted by these laws as well. Thus, it is not proper to afix the blame and horror of these laws to trinitarians as a group.
The atrocity of these laws actually being put into place has been delt with by the protestant reformation. A movement that properly charged the corrupt Catholic Church with these misdoings, and not trinitarians. The protestant reformation, led by those holding a trinitarian view, eventually led to a total recanting of these unjust laws. By and by this reformation movement also led to the establishment of a new state.
In an effort to avoid the unjust political situation that had fostered the implementation of these particular unjust laws, the founders of this new state established a tenet that still stands today...vis-a-vis...The separation of Church and State.
It is that these founders (most of which held trinitarian views) properly identified the situation, and established a rule that would eventually lead to the total abolition of these old laws that you seem to abhor so much (even beyond their own boarders).
So it is that you actually owe a debt of gratitude to those holding a trinitrian view.....UNLESS, it is, that these laws are really not a central concern of yours, and that your motovation for attacking trinitrians arises from elsewhere. |
They were fundamentally Laws set by trinitarians against those who were not!
| Dust wrote: | | As far as the admisssions of 'my own trinitarians'....need I remind you that all of mainstream Christianity holds and maintains a trinitarian or trinitarian-like view. That is....they all believe in the Father/Son/HolySpirit concept as outlined in the NT. |
I notice you carefully chose 'outlined' and not 'clearly shown'.
Thus you finally admit by your own testimony that the trinitarian doctrine is at best an 'inferred argument'
I accept your capitulation!
QED
Thank you!
I shall not be responding on this matter any further as your case is lost by your own mouth.
If you believe in a literal Satan fallen heavenly angel spirit being also I would be most pleased to discuss that with you?
If you wish to start a New Thread to that effect please do and advise me when this is done?
Thank you again. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6671
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I shall not be responding on this matter any further |
Thank goodness! Your unpleasant ways are wearying. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | I shall not be responding on this matter any further |
Thank goodness! Your unpleasant ways are wearying. |
They are perceived by you as unpleasant ways but that's because your current doctrine is decimated by mine! |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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please point out where that happened...  ...
i would all like to see it... ...
was it in this thread?... |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Please point out where it didn't happen?
Thank you |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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i was just sincerely asking...if you can't then i will just let it go...  |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:30 pm Post subject: Truth cannot be discerned without a Living Born Again spirit |
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| luvnlife wrote: |
I'm just pointing out that the bible DOES NOT support YOUR belief in the trinity.
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Truth cannot be discerned without being born again, because only then can the Holy Spirit teach you all things. AND Scripture must interpret Scripture, not human intellect. Therefore the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity is TRUTH, BECAUSE we interpret Scripture correctly with the help of our Teacher the Holy Spirit. A Power or Force does not Teach, and A Power or Force cannot be insulted or blasphemed, but GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT CAN BE.
1 John 4:13 (NKJV)
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
Acts 26:20 (NKJV)
20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. |
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