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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| Quote: | ="composer2005
. . . There is no proof that Christ alludes to the divine name (imperfectly rendered by the A.V., "I am that I am"). . . |
THERE CERTAINLY IS, RIGHT IN THE CONTEXT.
John 8:58-59 (NKJV)
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The were going to stone Him for blaspheming by calling Himself the "I AM".
NOW, look at this one:
John 18:3 (KJV)
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
John 18:4-6 (KJV)
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, "I am" he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
This was an entire Detachment, NOT just 4 or 5 men, OR there would have been ONLY 1 Officer. AN ENTIRE DETACHMENT OF PROFESSION SOLDIERS is NOT going to trip and fall, when they are under Orders to take a prisoner, just like an entire SWAT TEAM would not fall down while taking a prisoner today. NOTICE: the word "he" in Verse 5 is in Italics, which means it is NOT in the original language. Jesus ONLY said, "I AM", and the sheer POWER of His proclaiming His Diety as THEE "I AM", blasted that entire Detachment backwards and to the ground. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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[quote="VCO"] | Quote: | ="composer2005
. . . There is no proof that Christ alludes to the divine name (imperfectly rendered by the A.V., "I am that I am"). . . |
| VCO wrote: | | [THERE CERTAINLY IS, RIGHT IN THE CONTEXT. |
No there isn't and you are assuming the same errors as the Jews then. They thought he was saying what trinitarians still claim today but trinitarians are wrong about most things including this. Jesus DID NOT SAY I WAS! he said I AM = pre-eminence not pre-existence. Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42).
| VCO wrote: | | They were going to stone Him for blaspheming by calling Himself the "I AM". |
Please see above.
| VCO wrote: | NOW, look at this one:
John 18:3 (KJV)
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
John 18:4-6 (KJV)
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, "I am" he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
This was an entire Detachment, NOT just 4 or 5 men, OR there would have been ONLY 1 Officer. AN ENTIRE DETACHMENT OF PROFESSION SOLDIERS is NOT going to trip and fall, when they are under Orders to take a prisoner, just like an entire SWAT TEAM would not fall down while taking a prisoner today. NOTICE: the word "he" in Verse 5 is in Italics, which means it is NOT in the original language. Jesus ONLY said, "I AM", and the sheer POWER of His proclaiming His Diety as THEE "I AM", blasted that entire Detachment backwards and to the ground. |
So your point is what? - Jesus was putting on a futile display of his trinitarian alleged 'godly powers' was he, and to do what precisely. Scare them away, prevent his arrest, impress them or what?
Obviously it didn't work because they arrested him and crucified him regardless!
BTW: No Bible versions I have of John 18: 5 show 'I AM' (he) they show I am (he). You are corrupting the text! (naughty!)
NB: The blind man of John 9: 9 KJV also said "I am" so he must be god also? (Uses the very same Greek construction "to be")
NB: That Yahweh, the Divine Name, really means "I will be who I will be" (Ex.3:14 R.S.V. mg.; R.V.mg.) rather than "I am". |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:37 am Post subject: Re: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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Hi VCO
Q1. Have you checked the Greek OT to see whether the "I am" in John 8:58 is really the same as Exodus 3:14? If you haven't checked for yourself, how do you know?? 
Q2. When is the day of Christ? Because note what Jesus actually said was that Abraham saw his day, it was the Pharisees who heard this as Jesus saw Abraham's day. Abraham's day and Christ's day are different aren't they??
God bless
S. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Hello Composser,
We just aren't going to agree, we have been over this ump-teen times. Your arguments always point to 1/2 of what Jesus says about these matters. That is what is known as "half truths".
At times Jesus clearly spoke as a man subject to the will of God, at other times he spoke as a divine being and in his own right. The risen Christ no longer speaks in this duel fashion but squarely as our Lord and master.
In your "witch hunt" to root out Trinitarian's, you accuse people like me of relying on false doctrines such as the UB and Mormons etc. You say that we "pick and choose" when it's obvious to the disciples of the master that it is in fact you that are practicing this deception on yourself and then projecting that behavior onto your perceived enemies.
"To thine own self be true" mate.
Anyhow, I know that your a good fellow and are only suffering from confusion. I feel certain that one day we will meet on high and get a good laugh about all of this.
Take care
Colter |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:12 am Post subject: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| Colter wrote: | | We just aren't going to agree, we have been over this ump-teen times. |
No we can't agree at least not for the moment, because you rely on a corrupt doctrine (i.e. a corrupt tree yields corrupt fruits Matt. 7:17 KJV) because trinitarianism was founded on ungodly evil and tortures and burnings and denial of Free Will choices and you also rely on suspect books like the Mormons BOM rely on theirs because the Bible fails you, whilst I approach from the opposite of you. i.e. The Original peaceful and non violent teachings of Christ and the Bible alone.
| Colter wrote: | Your arguments always point to 1/2 of what Jesus says about these matters. That is what is known as "half truths".
At times Jesus clearly spoke as a man subject to the will of God, at other times he spoke as a divine being and in his own right. |
You've made Christ into two completely different persons."
A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways. (James 1: 8) KJV
One of them knows everything - one of them doesn't.
One of them can die - one of them can't.
One of them is Divine - one of them isn't.
One of them is God the son - one of them is the son of God.
The principle is that a man who is torn between two different states of mind is unstable. That's a principle, and it is true. (Original source by Fortigurn)
Cheers! |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You've made Christ into two completely different persons." |
His own words show that he is of two natures, human and divine.
| Quote: | A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways. (James 1: 8) KJV
One of them knows everything - one of them doesn't.
One of them can die - one of them can't.
One of them is Divine - one of them isn't.
One of them is God the son - one of them is the son of God.
The principle is that a man who is torn between two different states of mind is unstable. That's a principle, and it is true. (Original source by Fortigurn) |
Good old Fortigurn, I hope that old boy is doing well. He's quite a clever sort of magician, but also a good man at heart. He's produced an enormous body of work, translating spiritual truths into controllable intellectual systems.
(I like the way this forum is moderated, not so much "gang tackling" and censorship like BTDF. The mods here are wise.)
Those who sought to kill Christ also listened with the ear of the flesh, they were also baffled by his words as they sifted them through the sieve of stubborn religion. They were moral cowards, they simply would not/could not here with the ear of the spirit.
They also thought that Jesus was nuts.
Lest you be born again, born of the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
tally ho
Colter |
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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 840
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: Re: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| composer2005 wrote: | ... trinitarianism was founded on ungodly evil and tortures and burnings and denial of Free Will choices and you also rely on suspect books like the Mormons BOM rely on theirs because the Bible fails you, whilst I approach from the opposite of you. i.e. The Original peaceful and non violent teachings of Christ and the Bible alone.
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Hi c2005. I am struggling to understand your perspective on the trinity and to understand how you manage to link trinitarianism with torture and burning etc.
At this stage, I can only tell you that I find your argumentation strange, since I associate the trinity with the opposites of the qualities and events you mention. in my understanding, violence is a denial of the trinity.
Perhaps my trinity is different from yours. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:40 am Post subject: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| Colter wrote: | | His own words show that he is of two natures, human and divine. |
No Colter only your misrepresentation comes to that false conclusion. The Bible states that Christ said no such a thing and Jesus actually stated that he had but ONE WILL / Nature - Proof:-
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, . . . (Luke 22:42) KJV
NB: MY WILL / NATURE = SINGULAR!
Certainly not as you claim 'Not my two wills / my two natures?'
The facts prove that 'the trinity formula / godman formula' is unambiguously unstable.
| Composer wrote: | A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways. (James 1: 8) KJV
One of them knows everything - one of them doesn't.
One of them can die - one of them can't.
One of them is Divine - one of them isn't.
One of them is God the son - one of them is the son of God.
The principle is that a man who is torn between two different states of mind is unstable. That's a principle, and it is true. (Original source by Fortigurn) |
The trinitarian godman is proven to be 'double minded' and therefore unstable.
| Colter wrote: | | Good old Fortigurn, I hope that old boy is doing well. He's quite a clever sort of magician, but also a good man at heart. He's produced an enormous body of work, translating spiritual truths into controllable intellectual systems. |
Spoken like a true trinitarian who relies on the UB because the Bible fails him.
| Colter wrote: |
Those who sought to kill Christ also listened with the ear of the flesh, they were also baffled by his words as they sifted them through the sieve of stubborn religion. They were moral cowards, they simply would not/could not here with the ear of the spirit.
They also thought that Jesus was nuts.
Lest you be born again, born of the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
tally ho |
So 'the spirit' you say guides you Colter and the Mormons say their spirit guides them and the J. W's say their spirit guides them and you all say it guides you and we know why that is - because the Bible evidence fails you!
You see the Bible states to '. . . believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: . . .' (1 John 4: 1) KJV
Well your Bible Spirit fails you and so you run for the UB spirit just like the Mormons run for their BOM spirit. Both of you however are not relying soley on the Spirit of the Bible, because it fails you because your doctrines are false.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 John 4: 2) KJV
NB: If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), then he is a replica, not the original.
Christ is the "firstborn of every creature". (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" implies a beginning, therefore Christ is not the "Eternal" Son of God of the trinitarians. (Wrested Scriptures)
Cheers!
Last edited by composer2005 on Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| Plotinus wrote: | | At this stage, I can only tell you that I find your argumentation strange, since I associate the trinity with the opposites of the qualities and events you mention. in my understanding, violence is a denial of the trinity. |
You really need to do some reading on the history of the man made and developed history of the trinity.
You could make a start here paying attention particularly to #Post 6 -
http://www.thechristadelphians.org/forums/index.php?s=9688ef97fe7656396897dd76a4f425f9&showtopic=10893
Cheers! |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | So 'the spirit' you say guides you Colter and the Mormons say their spirit guides them and the J. W's say their spirit guides them and you all say it guides you and we know why that is - because the Bible evidence fails you!
You see the Bible states to '. . . believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: . . .' (1 John 4: 1) KJV
Well your Bible Spirit fails you and so you run for the UB spirit just like the Mormons run for their BOM spirit. Both of you however are not relying soley on the Spirit of the Bible, because it fails you because your doctrines are false.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 John 4: 2) KJV
NB: If Christ is the "image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15), then he is a replica, not the original.
Christ is the "firstborn of every creature". (Col. 1:15). "Firstborn" implies a beginning, therefore Christ is not the "Eternal" Son of God of the trinitarians. (Wrested Scriptures) |
Comp,
All men are the children of God , Mormons, JW's, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Christadelphians, all men are Gods children. We are all created like the trinity in that we have the gift of the pure spirit of the Father in us to guide us back to the Father experientially.
Old Jewish prayer prior to Pauls original sin corruption:
"My God, the soul which Thou gavest unto me is pure"
We are only limited by our place in evolution, by our limited ability to understand the leading of the spirit.
Mormons are wonderfully faithful people, they demonstrate the spirit of Christ better then most.
Your a good guy Comp, it would be helpful if you could avoid the use of that prosecutorial approach "because Trinitarian was founded on ungodly evil and tortures and burnings and denial of Free Will choices".
Colter |
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Plotinus
Tiger
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 840
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Re: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | Plotinus wrote: | | At this stage, I can only tell you that I find your argumentation strange, since I associate the trinity with the opposites of the qualities and events you mention. in my understanding, violence is a denial of the trinity. |
You really need to do some reading on the history of the man made and developed history of the trinity.
You could make a start here paying attention particularly to #Post 6
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D'oh!
.... (Plotinus reads posts with dictionary to look up big words) ... 
Well, I read what was there and didn't find anything that was new to me. It reads like History 101. It seems to me that these arguments are made with certain unstated and unproven assumptions about doctrinal authority. One piece of the History 101 lesson is that trinitarianism is later than the period when the new testament was written. But as I said, this only a refutation of trinitarianism in the presence of additional assumptions. I agree that trinitarianism is a later form of doctrine. That only amounts to a refutation if you believe that earlier beliefs -- closer to the time of Jesus -- are better than later beliefs. Perhaps there is an implicit assumption that if beliefs are closer in time to Jesus they must be closer to Jesus in spirit. But that is demonstrably false if interpreted as an absolute axiom.
Can we move on to History 201 now? |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| Quote: | ="composer2005"][quote="VCO"] | Quote: | ="composer2005
. . . There is no proof that Christ alludes to the divine name (imperfectly rendered by the A.V., "I am that I am"). . . |
| VCO wrote: | [THERE CERTAINLY IS, RIGHT IN THE CONTEXT.
John 8:58-59 (NKJV)
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
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No there isn't and you are assuming the same errors as the Jews then. They thought he was saying what trinitarians still claim today but trinitarians are wrong about most things including this. Jesus DID NOT SAY I WAS! he said I AM = pre-eminence not pre-existence. Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. . . |
John 1:1 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 (NKJV)
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
You correctly stated Christ is "not the originator of the divine plan". The Pre-Incarnate Christ has always functioned within the Triune Godhead as a son would function. I grew up on a farm in Nebraska, and when Dad said, "That field needs plowing."; I knew which one of us was going to do it, AND IT WAS NOT DAD.
Hence, the Father Willed Creation, and the Son the Pre-Incarnate Christ did it. The Father Willed the Plan of Salvation, the Incarnate Christ fulfilled it. Likewise if your mind (or soul) thinks "I am thirsty, pick up that bottle of water."; it is the physical part of your triune human being (soul, body, and spirit), that collection of cells that you call composer2005, especially your hand and arm in particular; that will pick up that bottle and pore it into your mouth, NOT THE "originator of the plan" to quench your thirst, your mind. LIKEWISE the physical part of GOD, that part we call Jesus Christ, who died on the cross to fulfill the divine plan of Salvation; BECAUSE the NON-physical part of the Triune GOD, cannot die, because He is Eternal.
You also correctly stated that GOD IS NOT THE "I WAS". No Jew would EVER refer to God as "He Was", because they knew HE IS AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN THEE "I AM". You apparently have no concept of just how sacred JEWS concidered the term "I AM". It is SO sacred to them that they would NEVER say in a statement about themselves, "I AM" period. NEVER would they say that, YET Jesus said it BOLDLY. Even when they wrote it, it was ABSOLUTELY required of them to go through a Cerimonial washing Prior to writing "I AM" and again After they wrote "I AM". The Jews that Day knew EXACTLY what Jesus had just called Himself, and SO DID JESUS. And then Jesus miraculously passed right thru the midst of that agry CROWD. All of them had picked up stones and were very INTENT on stoning Him to Death; YET not one of them saw Him leave. That miracle is much easier to explain to Inmates, because they know if EVERYONE on the Yard wants to kill you and you are in the middle of the Yard, you are a Dead Man. YET Jesus walked out unseen, because He is the "I AM" in the flesh, JUST AS HE CLAIMED.
John 10:30 (NKJV)
30 [color=red]"I and My Father are one." [/color]
John 10:38 (NKJV)
38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
1 John 5:11 (NKJV)
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
John 10:28 (NKJV)
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch
them out of My hand.
1 John 5:20 (NIV)
20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| Steven3 wrote: | Hi VCO
Q1. Have you checked the Greek OT to see whether the "I am" in John 8:58 is really the same as Exodus 3:14? If you haven't checked for yourself, how do you know??
Q2. When is the day of Christ? Because note what Jesus actually said was that Abraham saw his day, it was the Pharisees who heard this as Jesus saw Abraham's day. Abraham's day and Christ's day are different aren't they??
God bless
S. |
Q1. First of all the OT was mostly written in Hebrew and a few books in Aramaic. So what do the words mean in there original languages.
In Ex. 3:14 the Hebrew one word "hāyâ" translates to English AND to Greek in the two words which in English is: "I am".
In John 8:58 it reads in the Greek: "Egō eimi" which translates to English "I am"
Now Jesus in a crowd in Jerusalem would have Spoken to the crowd in HEBREW "Hāyâ", while John a scholor wrote in Greek hence the "Egō eimi" in the Gospel of John. The difference quite simply is the difference between the Hebrew and Greek languages.
For over 1900 years nearly all of Christiandom has understood, Jesus called Himself by the name of Jehovah that day when He said,"I AM". Why do you suppose now nearly 2000 years later there are so many wanting to deny the Deity of Jesus Christ?
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NKJV)
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2 Timothy 4:2-4 (NKJV)
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
Thankfully the majority of Mainline Churches still teach that Jesus Called Himself THEE "I AM" that day, literally God in the Flesh, but I see a ever increasing crowd denying it. Isn't that what the Crowd did that day in Jerusalem when they cried out, "Crucify Him!" Amoung those still teaching that Jesus called Himself God in the Flesh are: Dr. Charles Stanley, Dr. John MacArthur, Dr. Chuck Swindoll, Dr. James Kennedy, Dr. Ed Young, Dr. Bill Graham, the late Dr. Ben Haden, the late Zola Leavitt, etc., etc. Then there are the majority of mainline Commentaries that are in use today, all teaching that Jesus called Himself God in the Flesh when He said, "I AM". Such as these examples:
| Quote: | —Bible Knowledge Commentary— written by: Dallas Theological Seminary Faculty—
John 8:58. Jesus then affirmed His superiority over the prophets and Abraham. Abraham came into being; but when he was born, Jesus was already existing. I Am is a title of Deity (cf. Ex. 3:14; Isa. 41:4; 43:11-13; John 8:28); the Jews’ response (v. 59) showed they understood it that way. Jesus, because of His equality with God (5:18; 20:28; Phil. 2:6; Col. 2:9), existed from all eternity (John 1:1).
John 8:59. Jesus’ clear affirmation of His deity evoked a crisis. They had to decide whether He was what He claimed or was a blasphemer (cf. 5:18). Stoning was the normal punishment for this sin. The words, but Jesus hid Himself, could refer to a supernatural means of escape.
—Bible Knowledge Commentary— |
| Quote: | —Adame Clark's Commentary—
John 8:58
Before Abraham was, I am—The following is a literal translation of Calmet's note on this passage:—"I am from all eternity. I have existed before all ages. You consider in me only the person who speaks to you, and who has appeared to you within a particular time. But besides this human nature, which ye think ye know, there is in me a Divine and eternal nature. Both, united, subsist together in my person. Abraham knew how to distinguish them. He adored me as his God; and desired me as his Savior. He has seen me in my eternity, and he predicted my coming into the world." On the same verse Bishop Pearce speaks as follows:—"What Jesus here says relates (I think) to his existence antecedent to Abraham's days, and not to his having been the Christ appointed and foretold before that time; for, if Jesus had meant this, the answer I apprehend would not have been a pertinent one. He might have been appointed and foretold for the Christ; but if he had not had an existence before Abraham's days, neither could he have seen Abraham, (as, according to our English translation, the Jews suppose him to have said), nor could Abraham have seen him, as I suppose the Jews understood him to have said in the preceding verse, to which words of the Jews the words of Jesus here are intended as an answer."
John 8:59
Then took they up stones, etc.—It appears that the Jews understood him as asserting his Godhead; and, supposing him to be a blasphemer, they proceeded to stone him, according to the law. Leviticus 24:16.
But Jesus hid himself—In all probability he rendered himself invisible—though some will have it that he conveyed himself away from those Jews who were his enemies, by mixing himself with the many who believed on him, (John 8:30, 31), and who, we may suppose, favored his escape. Pearce.
But where did they find the stones, Christ and they being in the temple? It is answered:
1st. It is probable, as the buildings of the temple had not been yet completed, there might have been many stones near the place; or,
2dly. They might have gone out so the outer courts for them; and, before their return, our Lord had escaped. See Lightfoot and Calmet.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary— |
| Quote: | —Barclay's Daily Study Bible (NT)—
It was then that Jesus made that most staggering statement: "Before Abraham was, I am." We must note carefully that Jesus did not say: "Before Abraham was, I was," but, "Before Abraham was, I am." Here is the claim that Jesus is timeless. There never was a time when he came into being; there never will be a time when he is not in being.
What did he mean? Obviously he did not mean that he, the human figure Jesus, had always existed. We know that Jesus was born into this world at Bethlehem; there is more than that here. Think of it this way. There is only one person in the universe who is timeless; and that one person is God. What Jesus is saying here is nothing less than that the life in him is the life of God; he is saying, as the writer of the Hebrews put it more simply, that he is the same yesterday, today and forever. In Jesus we see, not simply a man who came and lived and died; we see the timeless God, who was the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, who was before time and who will be after time, who always is. In Jesus the eternal God showed himself to men.
—Barclay's Daily Study Bible (NT)— |
| Quote: | —J. Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible—
The liberal theologian today teaches that Jesus Christ was a great teacher but that He never really claimed to be God. My friend, listen to this. "Before Abraham was, I am." Not, I was -- I AM. He is the Jehovah, the I AM, God. The Jews understood perfectly. Because they knew precisely what He was claiming, they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy.
The issue is Jesus Christ. He put these Jews on the spot. They had to make a decision concerning Him. You must make a decision concerning Him. Either He is the Truth or He is a liar. Either He is God and Savior, or He is not. You must decide. Either you accept Him or you reject Him. Remember that your decision does not in any way change who He is. He is the great I AM, Jehovah, the eternal God. Your decision is to accept or deny this.
—J. Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible— |
As for your Q2 "When is the day of Christ", I will start a new post for that subjectp; so that we do not highjack the subject of this post, which is "Why do I believe in the Holy Trinity", which discussing the Deity of Jesus Christ, certainly is a part of. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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I accept your capitulation Colter now you have been informed that Christ had but a single will / nature like every other human being (Luke 22:42) KJV and wasn't the 'double minded and unstable' two willed / two natured trinitarian godman freak of humanity your current false doctrine purports!
How many 'Wills' do you have Colter, one or two?
| Colter wrote: | | All men are the children of God, Mormons, JW's, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Christadelphians, all men are Gods children. We are all created like the trinity in that we have the gift of the pure spirit of the Father in us to guide us back to the Father experientially. |
Your non Biblical 'universalist' guaranteed salvation for all is easily refuted and God has forewarned about your sort of nonBiblical corrupt doctrine: -
Because strait [ is ] the gate, and narrow [ is ] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Because: or, How} 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Matt. 7:14 - 19) KJV
We all know the historical 'fruits' of the ungodly trinitarian ideology founded on, no Free Will choices, murder, burnings and torture and your non Biblical UB doctrine is glowing evidence that God's warning about those like you remains active and warranted.
Your claim / inference that ALL shall be saved is false -
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matt. 7:22-23) KJV
| Colter wrote: | Old Jewish prayer prior to Pauls original sin corruption:
"My God, the soul which Thou gavest unto me is pure"
We are only limited by our place in evolution, by our limited ability to understand the leading of the spirit. |
The 'spirit' that currently leads you and trinitarians in general is a spirit founded on tortures, murders, burnings, no Free Will choices and the necessity to look for your specific 'spirit' in the UB demonstrates you can't get it directly from the Bible. You have a 'false spirit' - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1 John 4: 1) KJV which describes your current 'spirit and doctrine to a tee! i.e. Believe it not because it is not 'of God' (the Bible) it is based upon the UB that you run to precisely because the Bible alone fails you.
| Colter wrote: | | Mormons are wonderfully faithful people, they demonstrate the spirit of Christ better then most. |
Adam was probably a great guy but the world and all men suffered because although he was probably a great guy and Eve loved him, he still, like you, turned away from God's Word (the Bible) and listened to the carnal spirit of disobedience (like your UB and the Mormon BOM) that did not emanate from God but from a 'false god' of their own making. i.e. the 'trinitarian developed god' whose methodology was evil and torture and imprisonment and atrocities to force its message.
| Colter wrote: | | Your a good guy Comp, it would be helpful if you could avoid the use of that prosecutorial approach "because Trinitarian was founded on ungodly evil and tortures and burnings and denial of Free Will choices". |
I have no regrets at presenting the facts, I do however regret you ignoring them in order to satisfy your current false ideology!
Cheers!
Last edited by composer2005 on Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: trinity - history of murder, torture and lies |
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| VCO wrote: | | Why do you suppose now nearly 2000 years later there are so many wanting to deny the Deity of Jesus Christ? |
For the same reasons Paul and the other earliest Christians denied it - Proof:-
Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. (p.160)
In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title “Lord” conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. When John wrote his almost-Gnostic Gospel almost a half-century later, his use of the “Word” as a pre-existent form is used within Jewish context as well—the same context he used for words like glory, spirit, divine wisdom, and others. “When Paul and John spoke about Jesus as though he had some kind of pre-existent life, they were not suggesting that he was a second divine ‘person’ in the later Trinitarian sense.
“It should be noted that Paul never called Jesus ‘God.’ He called him the ‘Son of God’ in its Jewish sense. He certainly did not believe that Jesus had been the incarnation of God himself; he had simply possessed God’s ‘powers’ and ‘spirit,’ which manifested God’s activity on earth and were not to be identified with the inaccessible divine essence.” (p.161) (How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com) - (Bold emphasis mine)
Cheers! |
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