Civil War - which side to fight for?

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

There's various threads ongoing about whether Christians should participate in foreign wars (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Iraq)

Turning the focus back to domestic wars....

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Plotinus · Big Lion Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 968 Location: Canada

A strange question, but not an unreasonable one. However, I take my cue here from the sermon on the mount and from 2Cor 10:3-4, where we find

45degreeN · Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject:

As a historian of American history I have come to the conclusion that slavery was on its way out of American life as of 1854 and that eventually it would have died out allowing the slaves to attain their citizenship without a grossly uncivil war. It was just too expensive for the limited profits available from the cotton plantations and there was little need for slaves in any other type of agriculture.

We paid nearly 1 million American lives for something that would have concluded by itself in just a few years with a little patience. It was Washington and Jefferson who both made that sad choice not to abolish slavery before the constitution was agreed upon, together they bear the weight of having a "slavery republic" instead of a totally free republic. Clearly with their approval and a freeing of their slaves Washington and Jefferson would have convinced the rest of the south not to depend upon their slavery for their livelihoods.

It wasn't until around 1810 when the long fiber cotton allowed for huge plantations that the vast majority of blacks were required and sought after. But by 1835 the land itself couldn't sustain the crop and it began to move westward. It left a soil bereft of nutritional value for most crops until peanuts came into use much later. As the plantations moved further west they left a land unsuited for much agriculture much less the concentrated slave economies. By the time of the civil war the cotton culture had move nearly to Texas were the limit of suitable land was reached. The American slave economy was doomed to failure anyway.

I'll get to the English Civil war in another post.
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theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

a believer is not of this world...let the one who are of this world fight for their kingdoms....rememhber when JESUS told pilate that HIS kingdom wasn't here...and basically said that is why HIS follower's don't fight for HIM...

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

45degreeN · Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:27 am Post subject:

Methodists fought on both side of the civil war, since the Methodist church was unable to wrest the slaveholders out of the church. This church split several times over the issue of slavery in spite of the overwhelming disapproval of the church hierarchy and of the founders John and Charles Wesley.
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theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

a little methodist church in darien ga....the northern army(yankee hordes around here Wink

) tried to burn it down twice....the rest of the town burned...but both times the church did not...

45degreeN · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:49 am Post subject:

Was that in the "War between the states" or the "war of northern aggression"?

In one sense it certainly wasn't a "civil"war with nearly 1 million Americans dead, many from both sides of horrible diseases or "surgical infections."

Many people afterward turned from Christianity to some early form of new age philosophy. America stopped being a "Christian nation" at that point.
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saintmichaeldefendthem · Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:29 am Post subject:

Of course I am opposed to the war happening at all, but because Lincoln (precious few of us understand just what a tyrant he was) drew up a 75,000 militia war was thrust upon the South and it would be with the South that I would have taken my stand in what is considered "the 2nd War for Independence".

The Civil War was an "unjust war" as defined by the "Just War Doctrine" criteria originally authored by St. Augustine (and to this day remainst a doctrine of the Church) to govern the reasons that a state should go to war. One of the provisions is that "the evil to be eliminated must be greater than the evil of war itself" Few will argue that slavery was a stark evil in American society, but to kill 600,000 people is by far a greater evil, just to abolish slavery by force. The South suffered much more, having an entire generation of men wiped out. This affected the Southern economy and plunged them into a deep poverty that would last over 100 years....but at least we abolished slavery.

The issue of slavery is so emotional that people perversely don't care (in fact most don't even know) how many lives were lost. To most people, those 600,000 deaths were like clipping nails...it could have been 10 or 100 times as much...as long as slavery was abolished.

And make no mistake, Lincoln had no intention of freeing a single slave when the war commensed. It was all about power. It's sad that people aren't aware of what really happened.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora pro nobis pecatoribus

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

you are correct about lincoln...he himself said savery was not an issue with him and if he could keep the union together without freeing any or by freeing all the slaves he would....

the south lost one in four men....not counting the injured...

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

even then though they still beat the north in most of the major battles and had almost a five to one death rate(if memory serves correctly...like 4.82 or something//)...

that being close to five yankees killed for every one confederate killed....

sad story all the way around to me...

i would not have taken sides...

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7000 Location: USA

Do you guys really think the 'civil war' was about abolishing slavery? Certainly it was an issue, but not the main issue by far...
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theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

Steven3 · Lion King Joined: 10 Jul 2007 Posts: 1205 Location: UK

Hey,
Someone just voted Confederate! Razz

Looks like they may win this time around Very Happy

TSS
Good post on swords Smile

James

saintmichaeldefendthem · Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:04 am Post subject:

Steven,

Official pronouncements are hard to find on any war. The Just War Doctrine is a guide and nothing more. But by the provisions of that doctrine, the War of Northern Aggression (sic) cannot be seen as just. We have had more definitive pronouncements on the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, this action being deemed incontrovertably as unjust.

And of course priests would accompany both sides. Priests are usually very nonpolitical and are passionate only about their role to attend to people's spiritual needs, even and especially in a time of war. I would recommend this book as a good read on the truth about the WONA The Politically Incorrect Guide To The South (and why it will rise again) by Clint Johnson. In it you'll see some startling historical truths about the tyranny of Lincoln, the complicity of the North in slavery, and yes, to bring us back to point, how the Irish were forced by Adolf Lincoln to fight for their citizenship.

For instance, did you know that the first slave holder in America was a black man, and his first 5 slaves were white? This man also went to court to argue that one of his slaves was his "negro for life" and the court agreed, setting the precident for court sanctioned slavery.

Did you know that Adolf Lincoln jailed journalists for telling the truth about him, and when the chief justice of the Supreme Court objected, he sent out an arrest warrant for him?

Did you know that Adolf Lincoln stated several times he had no intention of ending slavery and held a personal view that whites were superior to blacks?

Did you know that New York became what it is today because of slavery? The city's monumental industry was building ships and running the slave trade. A Southern flag never flew on a slave ship.

Did you know that until just a couple of decades preceding the WONA, slavery was legal in the North as well?

Funny how accurate history is at loggerheads with what is taught in our socialized public schools.