the time before Jesus assended into heaven

1kid2dogs

In our study group this week, one of the women had a puzzeling question.

When Jesus rose from the dead, he told Mary that she could not touch him because he had not yet assended to heaven, but later on he permitted Thomas to touch him, so that he could believe that it was in fact him.

The questions are: How could he not let Mary touch him, but let Thomas touch him? Did he assend into heaven between seeing Mary and Thomas?

jwp · Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:53 pm Post subject:

Well I'll take a shot at it.

Some say that she didn't need to hold on to Him because he would be returning and she would see him again and that the Holy spirit would be with her to comfort her and those that believe in him.

Van · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:00 am Post subject: John 20:17

The KJV says "Touch me not"
The NAS says "Do not cling to me"
The NIV says "Do not hold on to me"
YLT says "Be not touching me"

The Greek word means to adhere or cling to something. The Greek grammatical construction (the present imperitive with a negative) means "stop doing something" rather than "do not begin to do something."

In context Jesus seems to be saying to Mary, stop what you are doing because I have different plans both for you and for me. Yes, some assume that the reason Jesus did not want Mary to touch, hold, cling was because touching might impart uncleanness to Jesus and thus would affect his return to His Father. But such does not hold up, because Mary seems to have touched Him and yet after 40 days or so, He assended.

I agree with Jwp that Mary did not need to hold on to Jesus because God's plan was not for Jesus to remain with his disciples physically. She needed to understand that He would be leaving and she had other work to do - to spread the Good News.

The false idea that Jesus could not be touched before He assended has no basis, it is an inferred idea. We know that Jesus, probably in the spirit, was with the criminal on the cross in Paradise where God is before Sunday. We know that Jesus was touched, handled by others before He assended bodily. So the idea of dire consequences if Mary had touched Jesus is without scriptural basis and relies on a less than the best translation of the Greek.

1kid2dogs · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 7:23 am Post subject:

Ok, now I have another question.

I seem to agree with both jwp and Van, but I was under the impression that Mary had not touched Jesus before he assended, that only Thomas touched him.

Van, where does it say that Mary seems to have touched him? I am really curious about this, because I have never read that.

Thanks! Confused or disgusted

Van · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 8:47 am Post subject: Did Mary touch Jesus?

The bible does not say Mary touched Jesus, but two passages are used to support the inferrence.

In Matthew 28:9 a group of women, which may or may not have included Mary, took hold of his feet and Jesus told them "Do not be afraid" and tell his brethren.

In John 20:17 Jesus says "do not touch, cling or hold me" and could refer to Mary's actual completed action, rather than reading her mind or body language and warning her not to do what she planned to do. The past action understanding seems solid to me and therefore is the basis of my statement that Mary seems to have touched Jesus.

Without getting too detailed, I believe that the event of Matthew 28:9 occurred on the way to the disciples and hence occurred before Jesus talked to Mary after Peter and John returned with Mary to the empty tomb.
If this premise is correct, and I happen to believe that it is, then Mary was not with the women in Matthew 28:9, for she had not seen Jesus yet. The sequence of events can be fitted together in many ways, I accept one of them but fully agree that other views are also just as solid.

In summary, I do not think it matters whether or not Mary actually physically touched Jesus, but I happen to think she did for the reason given. I also believe the women in Matthew 28:9 touched Jesus before the event recorded in John 20:17.

Hope some of this helps.

1kid2dogs · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2003 10:41 am Post subject:

Thank you both for your insight into my questions. I really appreciate it.

I went into those scriptures and noticed that Mary did not touch him, as I had previously thought, but just approached him or fell as his feet.

Thanks again. Very Happy

Mateo

I would like to offer a few alternative thoughts concerning this subject. I know much of what I will suggest to you will likely be foreign and a little complicated but I will try to keep it brief.

In Ezekiel 42:14, 44:19 and 46:20 we are told that in the millenial temple the priests who attend to the Lord in the inner court of the temple are to put on special garments when entering the inner court. They are told they must take them off when leaving the inner court to attend to the people so that they do not unintentionally "sanctify" them if they are touched. We are also told that anyone who unintentionally touches the tresspass, sin and meat offerings would be unintentionally sanctified as well. This is also the case for the offerings descibed in Leviticus 6:18.

I suspect this may well be symbolic of a physical phenomenon peculiar to angels as well as Jesus: that being the ability to put on and take off bodies (or garments if you will) that allow them to interact on either the earthly or heavenly spheres.

Remember Jesus on the "mount of transfiguration"? In Luke 9:29 his garments became white and shining before conferring with Moses and Elias. In addition you will note that angels are said to appear white repeatedly in the Bible.

In addition we have the White garments we are told we should seek (Rev 3:18) and that the Lord would bestow to his Bride at his return (Rev 6:11 and 19:8).

Last but not least, remember the woman who had an issue of blood for so many years who touched Jesus and was made whole? It may be that Mary caught the Lord in transition,physically, and it would have been disallowed for Him to allow her to touch Him, and receive the promises of Christ prematurely, just as the Old Testament and Millenial priests of the temple were under a similar restriction.

Just a little food for thought.

Yours in the Lord,

Mateo

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6842 Location: USA

All good replies I think. I however, see a common sense in Van's answer. Jesus admonishment to Mary not to 'cling to Him' or 'hold on to' Him, seems to better indicate that He was really telling her; Don't cling to me in my physical form, don't hold on to what you now see, because the real Me to which you should cling to is the Me ascended, the Me that has completed My Father's work...

Just my thoughts..