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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: Why is Jesus still calling God "my God" today? |
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Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Leaving aside the issue of whom Christ was talking to, and for whose benefit he said this, I've heard that explained (by an Alpha Course tutor) as "while he was still a man (sic, the "man" verses are mainly post-resurrection) he recognised God-the-Father as "my God", but not after he was raised." But it's clearly not the case is it?
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Revelation 3:2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.
Revelation 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
4 x "my God" in one verse must mean something...
God bless
S |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Steven----------
Because the Father is the God of Christ.
much love--------knuckle |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Knuckle | knuckle wrote: | Hi Steven----------
Because the Father is the God of Christ.
much love--------knuckle |
Well "the Father is the God of Christ" sounds like some kind of formula, but isn't really a Biblical way of saying it. Unless we have in mind "the Father is.. greater than I". In the following verses God is the God of Christ, and also his Father.
Ro15:6 the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Co1:3 the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 Co11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus
Eph1:3 the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
1 Pe1:3 the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
Rev1:6 priests to his God and Father
And the same could be said for Paul
Gal1:4 the will of our God and Father,
Phil4:20 To our God and Father be glory
1 Thess1:3 before our God and Father
1 Thess3:11 may our God and Father himself
1 Thess3:13 before our God and Father
Or indeed Christ and Paul together:
Eph4:6 one God and Father of all.
Seems worded perfectly well in the phrase "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ". God is the God of Jesus after all?
Steven |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Steven;
As the ever-living Omnipotent Creator and ruler over all, even His son Jesus would call Him both God and Father. Jesus is Gods son and Jesus is our Lord. But God is more than just Jesus' Father because He is the originator of all things so He is God and... He is also Father to Jesus and to us.
I might be a CEO of a company my daughter or son works for. I would still be parent to my son or daughter but also the Chief Executive Officer of the company they stand to some day inherit. In this case, I would hold both titles (and perhaps more than that if I wear multiple hats in my business and/or at home).
So it also is with God, our Father.
Much Love,
Luv  |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Luvnlife, nice name | luvnlife wrote: | Hello Steven;
As the ever-living Omnipotent Creator and ruler over all, even His son Jesus would call Him both God and Father. Jesus is Gods son and Jesus is our Lord. But God is more than just Jesus' Father because He is the originator of all things so He is God and... He is also Father to Jesus and to us. |
Good stuff.
| Quote: | I might be a CEO of a company my daughter or son works for. I would still be parent to my son or daughter but also the Chief Executive Officer of the company they stand to some day inherit. In this case, I would hold both titles (and perhaps more than that if I wear multiple hats in my business and/or at home).
So it also is with God, our Father. |
Ah, but exactly, so it isn't. God is still CEO today. Jesus is only COO. And even at the end of time Jesus will still only be COO. Which is why we have all those "my CEO" verses in Revelation. "My father is greater than I" said Jesus, and he could have said "and He always will be...".
1Co15:24 Then comes the end, when he (COO) delivers the kingdom to God the Father (CEO) after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he (COO) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God (CEO) has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he (CEO) is excepted who put all things in subjection under him (COO). 28 When all things are subjected to him (CEO), then the Son himself (COO) will also be subjected to him (CEO) who put all things in subjection under him, that God (CEO) may be all in all.
God bless
S. |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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Steven said: | Quote: | And the same could be said for Paul
Gal1:4 the will of our God and Father,
Phil4:20 To our God and Father be glory
1 Thess1:3 before our God and Father
1 Thess3:11 may our God and Father himself
1 Thess3:13 before our God and Father
Or indeed Christ and Paul together:
Eph4:6 one God and Father of all. |
The same is true of Paul, Steven. It's also true of you and I.
Take a look at (KJV) Romans 8:14-17:
14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Also (KJV) Ephesians 1:3-7 bears out this same point:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
And also in (KJV) 2 Cor 6:17, 18:
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Much Love,
Luv  |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1123
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Steven said: | Quote: | | 1Co15:24 Then comes the end, when he (COO) delivers the kingdom to God the Father (CEO) after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he (COO) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God (CEO) has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he (CEO) is excepted who put all things in subjection under him (COO). 28 When all things are subjected to him (CEO), then the Son himself (COO) will also be subjected to him (CEO) who put all things in subjection under him, that God (CEO) may be all in all. |
You are quite correct but Jesus does not mind his role. He is much more than just another subject to his Father. God has put him in charge of so much. He even trusts Jesus judgement enough to have Jesus be the one to pass judgement on us. And I believe God chose well. Jesus has been a man and understands the temptations, hardships and trials we face. Jesus is very loving and compassionate as a good judge should be.
The bible states further that no one can go to the Father except through the Son....and no one can go to the Son except through the Father. That is the kind of "working" relationship God has with his Son.
Much Love and Good Night!
Luv |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Luvnlife | luvnlife wrote: | | He is much more than just another subject to his Father. God has put him in charge of so much. |
Correct, yes, but so far no one is denying that. What Paul, and Christ himself, seem to be denying is that God and his Son are coequal. Anything less than "equal" is not equal.
| Quote: | | Jesus has been a man and understands the temptations, hardships and trials we face. |
Correct, though Jesus still is a man according to Peter and Paul. It might be better to say that the Lord Jesus was born mortal and was tempted which he no longer is.
Good night to you too.
S. |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Hi Steven-------
the example given in Joseph as governor of Egypt
Gen 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
Gen 44:18 Then Judah came near unto him, and said, Oh my lord, let thy servant, I pray thee, speak a word in my lord's ears, and let not thine anger burn against thy servant: for thou art even as Pharaoh.
who sees the difference? Pharaoh knew he was greater 'In the throne" and Joseph knew that too -----but Judah said "though art even as Pharaoh" and no one lifted a hand but by Joseph's command
1Co 8:6 But to US there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Luvnlife has pointed out who the US is above with her quotes of Romans and Ephesians-- this knowledge wasn't available in the OT it was brought to the open by Christ ---- what was it Judah said?thou art even as....
much love---------knuckle |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | Gen 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
Gen 44:18 Then Judah came near unto him, and said, Oh my lord, let thy servant, I pray thee, speak a word in my lord's ears, and let not thine anger burn against thy servant: for thou art even as Pharaoh.
who sees the difference? Pharaoh knew he was greater 'In the throne" and Joseph knew that too -----but Judah said "though art even as Pharaoh" and no one lifted a hand but by Joseph's command |
Yet, there still existed a distinction between Pharaoh and Joseph....they were not the same person. Pharaoh was still greater than Joseph "in regard to the throne", but to the subjects of Pharaoh's kingdom there was no one greater than Joseph. Not that Joseph was Pharaoh. |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Twoputt--------
to whom did the distinction matter?
Only to the royal court who had access to Pharaoh.Pharaoh's wife and children would certainly make the distinction.They have a personal relationship with him.
Did it matter to the common folk who gave the order or who ran the kingdom--no not one bit.Any one under Joseph looked at him AS Pharaoh----not an exalted messenger of Pharaoh not his number one worker he was looked at AS Pharaoh
much love-----------knuckle |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | Hi Twoputt--------
to whom did the distinction matter?
Only to the royal court who had access to Pharaoh.Pharaoh's wife and children would certainly make the distinction.They have a personal relationship with him.
Did it matter to the common folk who gave the order or who ran the kingdom--no not one bit.Any one under Joseph looked at him AS Pharaoh----not an exalted messenger of Pharaoh not his number one worker he was looked at AS Pharaoh
much love-----------knuckle |
Hello Knuckle,
You're avoiding my point. They were two people. You know that, I know that, the Pharaoh's little kitty cat knew that, and the guy who sold the kitty litter to the royal court knew that. Even the use of "as" (in the form of a simile) shows that while Joseph carried the authority of Pharaoh -- which Pharaoh gave him -- it was still Joseph. And, let's not forget that Pharaoh made it a point to let Joseph know he (Pharaoh) still ruled -- "only in the throne will I be greater than you." There was no one greater than Joseph.....except Pharaoh.
Joseph acted on behalf of Pharaoh but he certainly wasn't Pharaoh himself. |
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Twoputt----------
brother I am not avoiding your point but it seems you are missing mine.
at what point does the distinction between the Father and the Son matter?does it matter to THEM those outside the adoption into the family of God---NO it matters to US
My response to Steven's original question (why did Jesus say My God) was because the Father is the God of Christ.
now lets look at a few things and if you will please bare with me I will try to explain what I am talking about.
Jesus said--- John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Now I want you to also consider this verse of scripture:
1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation ["verse 9- "the salvation of your soul"] the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Pet 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Now,who was it that was telling the Old Testament prophets all of this? "...the Spirit of Christ which was in them."
we know this because
"the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. "
Our JW friends (whom I love with all my heart) will tell you that Jehovah God that the OT prophets talked to was God the Father or a messenger(angel) from Him.
Jesus said Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
The Son came to reveal some one who up until this point was not known-- The Father--- up until then the only God that man "knew" was the Son,Christ Jesus
so back to my original point The Father is the God of Christ and Christ.............. is God
much love--------------knuckle
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3188
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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good post knuckle.
Jhn 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Jhn 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare [it]: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
What was the only "name" Jesus ever declared?
the **Father.**
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| knuckle wrote: | | at what point does the distinction between the Father and the Son matter?does it matter to THEM those outside the adoption into the family of God---NO it matters to US |
Wow, you're right. I'm stilling missing your point.
| Quote: | My response to Steven's original question (why did Jesus say My God) was because the Father is the God of Christ.
now lets look at a few things and if you will please bare with me I will try to explain what I am talking about.
Jesus said--- John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Now I want you to also consider this verse of scripture:
1 Pet 1:10 Of which salvation ["verse 9- "the salvation of your soul"] the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1 Pet 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1 Pet 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Now,who was it that was telling the Old Testament prophets all of this? "...the Spirit of Christ which was in them."
we know this because
"the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. "
Our JW friends (whom I love with all my heart) will tell you that Jehovah God that the OT prophets talked to was God the Father or a messenger(angel) from Him.
Jesus said Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
The Son came to reveal some one who up until this point was not known-- The Father--- up until then the only God that man "knew" was the Son,Christ Jesus |
Forgive me for being dense, but are you saying until Christ the Jews didn't understand or know God as "Father"? That it was really Christ that they were speaking to.....up to and including the strolls in the garden of Eden? |
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