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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3188
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: The mighty God |
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Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 10:20 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth
Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty [God] of Jacob; (from thence [is] the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
Deu 7:21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God [is] among you, a mighty God and terrible.
Job 36:5 Behold, God [is] mighty, and despiseth not [any: he is] mighty in strength [and] wisdom.
Psa 50:1 [[A Psalm of Asaph.]] The mighty God, [even] the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.
Psa 132:2 How he sware unto the LORD, [and] vowed unto the mighty [God] of Jacob;
Psa 132:5 Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty [God] of Jacob.
Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, [is] his name,
Hab 1:12 [Art] thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Zep 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee [is] mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Mojo,
Hi,
Both Jesus and Jehovah are called "Mighty God". Jesus is a god and he is powerful.
John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
He (Jesus) will destroy the god of this system of things. But only Jehovah is called Almighty God.
Take care. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Joh 1:1
(ALT) In the beginning was the Word [or, the Expression of [divine] Logic], and the Word was with [or, in communion with] God, and the Word was God [or, was as to His essence God].
(AMP) IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. [Isa. 9:6.]
(BBE) From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God.
(ESV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(GNT-BYZ+) εν1722 PREP αρχη746 N-DSF ην1510 V-IAI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM ην1510 V-IAI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM θεον2316 N-ASM και2532 CONJ θεος2316 N-NSM ην1510 V-IAI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM
(GNT-TR+) εν1722 PREP αρχη746 N-DSF ην1510 V-IAI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM ην1510 V-IAI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM θεον2316 N-ASM και2532 CONJ θεος2316 N-NSM ην1510 V-IAI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM
(GNT-WH+) εν1722 PREP αρχη746 N-DSF ην1510 V-IAI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM και2532 CONJ ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM ην1510 V-IAI-3S προς4314 PREP τον3588 T-ASM θεον2316 N-ASM και2532 CONJ θεος2316 N-NSM ην1510 V-IAI-3S ο3588 T-NSM λογος3056 N-NSM
(JPS)
(LITV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(MSG) The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word. The Word was God,
(YLT) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Did you notice the definite article isn't in front of "theos" when describing what Jesus was?
That makes Jesus a god, not "the God" or the Supreme Divinity. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Did you notice the definite article isn't in front of "theos" when describing what Jesus was?
That makes Jesus a god, not "the God" or the Supreme Divinity. |
Careful now, TBax. You've already admitted that Greek is Greek to you. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Mojo, I am interested in understanding your position. You do not believe that God is three Persons, correct? Yet, you believe that both the Father and the Son are God, no? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1925
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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Apoc,
Hi,
Strong's number for "theos" is 2316.
It is defined as "a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity".
That word, number 3588 is "ho", which is the greek definite article. The english equivelant would be "the God". This takes us back to John 1:1. "The God" is used in all but one instance. Can you guess which one? Better yet, look it up.
Many translators understood this as well.
| Quote: | 1694 And the word was a god (Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D)
1768 and was himself a divine person (Harwood)
1808 and the word was a god (Newcome)
1829 the Logos was a god (Thompson)
1864 and a god was the Word (Wilson (Int))
1939 the Word was divine (Goodspeed)
1947 the Word was god (Torrey)
1972 the Logos was divine.(Moffatt )
1978 and godlike sort was the Logos (Schneider)
1994 the Word was a divine Being (Madsen)
1979 ein Gott war das Logos [a God/god was the Logos/logos] (Becker)
1907 Das Wort war selbst gttlichen Wesens [The Word/word was itself a divine being] (Stage)
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And it harmonises with other scriptures as well.
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time;
(John 6:46) Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father
Take care. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3188
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| apoc wrote: | | Mojo, I am interested in understanding your position. You do not believe that God is three Persons, correct? Yet, you believe that both the Father and the Son are God, no? |
yes
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knuckle
Young Wolf
Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 501
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mojo, we are on the same boat on this one. What label do we fall under (besides "non-trinitarian"), I wonder? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Hello TBax,
| TBax wrote: | Strong's number for "theos" is 2316.
It is defined as "a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity". |
Yep.
| Quote: | | That word, number 3588 is "ho", which is the greek definite article. The english equivelant would be "the God". |
Indeedy.
| Quote: | 1694 And the word was a god (Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D)
1768 and was himself a divine person (Harwood)
1808 and the word was a god (Newcome)
1829 the Logos was a god (Thompson)
1864 and a god was the Word (Wilson (Int))
1939 the Word was divine (Goodspeed)
1947 the Word was god (Torrey)
1972 the Logos was divine.(Moffatt )
1978 and godlike sort was the Logos (Schneider)
1994 the Word was a divine Being (Madsen)
1979 ein Gott war das Logos [a God/god was the Logos/logos] (Becker)
1907 Das Wort war selbst gttlichen Wesens [The Word/word was itself a divine being] (Stage) |
And did these men have a theological axe to grind, or were their translations based soley on the Greek?
| Quote: | And it harmonises with other scriptures as well.
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; |
No man has seen God as Spirit, for Spirit is intangible. God has, however, been seen in the flesh!
| Quote: | | (John 6:46) Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father |
Yes, and we see the Father in the Son:
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. - John 14:7
Take care.
Last edited by apocatastasis on Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | "The God" is used in all but one instance. Can you guess which one? |
Actually, TBax, theos is used fifteen times in the Gospel of John without the definite article. Can you guess what theos refers to in each of these instances?
Let's see.
Jhn 1:1 (KJV) ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
Or should this read, "There was a man sent from a god..."?
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Or should it be "the sons of a god"?
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Born by the will of a god?
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
A teacher from a god?
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Wrought in a god?
Are we seeing a pattern yet? 
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jhn 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Jhn 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
Jhn 9:33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
Jhn 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Jhn 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Jhn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Looks like you're going to have to revise your argument, TBax. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: The mighty God |
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| MoJo wrote: | | Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. |
Hi MoJo
I'm not going to deny that if this was the only verse in the Bible dealing with who Jesus is then I'd believe that the word "God" could be applied to him. However:
1. It isn't the only verse in the Bible. Christ claims to be "a man" John 8:40, but never claims to be "God".
2. "called" is not the same as "is". Not in English, not in Hebrew.
3. אֵל גִּבּוֹר, ’el gibor doesn't actually mean "the mighty God". See Strongs, Youngs or e-Sword.
4. Everyone (Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians) recognises that the first application of Emmanu-el can only be to someone who lived in Isaiah's day (Is.7:1,15, 2Ki15:27-30,15:37,16:5,9). Most commentaries suggest Hezekiah, with good evidence. If Hezekiah could be called Emmanu-el, then it is not unlikely that "called Pele-yoetz, El-Gibor, Avi-Ad, Sar-Shalom" applies in the first fulfillment to Hezekiah as well, without Hezekiah actually being God himself.
5. Serious scholarly Bible commentaries, even by Trinitarians, also apply Isaiah 9:6 firstly to events and people in Isaiah's day. See Isaiah: An Introduction and Commentary (Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries) by J. A. Motyer and D. J. Wiseman 1999). Word Biblical Commentary Vol. 24, Isaiah 1-33 (John D.W. Watts, Nelson Reference, 1985)
6. The LXX (i.e. Septuagint, Greek OT of the diaspora synagogues and early church) didn't have "mighty god" here either. The MSS have either "messenger of mighty will" or "mighty one, prince of peace" etc.
7. The JPS 1917 translation merely transliterates the Hebrew, keeping consistency with the treatment of "Emmanu-el" (7:14, 8:8), and "Maher-shalal-hash-baz" (8:1) with "Pele yoets, el gibor, avi-ad, sar-shalom" (9:6). Why isn't the KJV this consistent?
Finally, if Jesus was God, or even could be "called God", why isn't there a single clear verse in 66 books that just says so?
Steven |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3188
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven wrote: | | Finally, if Jesus was God, or even could be "called God", why isn't there a single clear verse in 66 books that just says so? |
Hi Steven. Welcome to the board. 
Actually there are hundreds, possibly thousands;you just have to study it out and connect the dots to see it. How about this one;
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.
Who comes with his saints?
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
| Quote: | | 4. Everyone (Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians) recognises that the first application of Emmanu-el can only be to someone who lived in Isaiah's day (Is.7:1,15, 2Ki15:27-30,15:37,16:5,9). Most commentaries suggest Hezekiah, with good evidence. If Hezekiah could be called Emmanu-el, then it is not unlikely that "called Pele-yoetz, El-Gibor, Avi-Ad, Sar-Shalom" applies in the first fulfillment to Hezekiah as well, without Hezekiah actually being God himself. |
Everyone? I'm afraid I will have to disagree that Is 9:6 could mean anyone but Jesus. The context of the chapter tells us this.
What I will say is that the book of Isaiah is not for the faint-hearted. A person needs a lot of study and revelation before being able to begin to comprehend this book and the other prophecy books.
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3188
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| apoc wrote: | | Mojo, we are on the same boat on this one. What label do we fall under (besides "non-trinitarian"), I wonder? |
I'm glad we have found something to agree on, but I don't like labels. Labels give the impression your beliefs are attached to a certain group. I only believe what I'm given to hear directly from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
However, I haven't heard many express this same interpretation, so I think we may be a minority.
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