 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
|
 Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Colter, Colter, Colter --
We just keep bumping into each other, don't we? I guess that dust is not quite off yet.  No worries...while I don't agree with your theology I think you're a pretty good guy.
So, if you don't mind I'd like to address your post...
| Colter wrote: | | The Trinity is only philosophically comprehensible by man, it is actually impossible for man to fully understand the divine oneness of three eternal deities functioning as one Father. |
No, man has this type of philosophy down pretty well. It's called polytheism and the trinity doctrine is just another flavor of that.
| Colter wrote: | | Although there is an evolution to the God concept in the OT from plural deities, OT Jews during the times of Christ had no concept of God having an only son (an eternal I AM). |
Especially since Jesus isn't "an eternal I AM" nor the "I AM WHO I AM".
| Colter wrote: | | Their concept of the coming of the savior was gleaned from the hazy presentations of the prophets. The Jews, as had been their habit, interpreted the coming of a Messiah as exclusively for them, exclusively Jewish in theology and to be a kind of priest, prophet, king. He would sit on David's corrupt seat of power and rule the earth, as a Jew on behalf of Judaism. |
I can go with that.
| Colter wrote: | | So in many ways the Jews were not at all prepared for the coming of, and introduction to, "God the Son". |
Apparently the New Testament writers were not either, nor Jesus himself, since this terminology is never used.
| Colter wrote: | | It wasn't so much that the world had not been told of his coming but rather the concept of the Messiah is the product of "his coming" translated through the "eye" of the Hebrew mind, it's distorted. |
This makes no sense.
| Colter wrote: | | The Jewish converts to Christianity who wrote the NT further complicated the problem by writing from the perspective of Jesus being the perfect foretelling of the OT scriptures. They thought he was only absent for a short time but would return and take up David's seat. |
Complicated the problem? I guess if you don't see the Bible as wholly-inspired you could come to this conclusion.
| Colter wrote: | | So, there is no chapter to the Trinity in the Bible, it's an idea that is "realized" in the pre-existence of Jesus, before this world was, and his current place at the right hand of the Father with all power and authority in heaven and on earth. |
So, snippets of the scriptures -- which you fail to recognize as inspired -- are then used out of context to promote your theology?
| Colter wrote: | | As Jesus promised, his spirit was poured out upon all flesh. Because the spirit is not doing the initial "start up miracles" but is more anonymous, some feel that it was "retracted" and not available to believers now. |
Huh?
| Colter wrote: | | I testify that the spirit is and will always be present for those who seek God "in spirit" rather then in mind/doctrine/theology. And then there is something distinctly named "the holy spirit". |
Again...huh?
| Colter wrote: | | Christidelphians go to great lengths to point out the inconsistencies in the logic of mans attempt to explain the trinity from a biblical perspective but at the end of the day they have us being ruled by a 33 year old carpenter from Nazareth, still fully human, only preexisting as an idea in Gods mind from the foundation of the world. Illogical doesn't begin to describe this theory. |
That's a calculated misrepresentation of Christadelphians.
| Colter wrote: | | BTW, I've had extensive discussions with the Christadelphians, they are no more a "cult" in the pejorative sense then any other religious group. There are many great and sincere individuals among them. You will not find a more committed group of Bible students. |
Very gracious of you to say. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Two putt,
" Before Abraham was I AM"
All who were present on this occasion knew what Jesus meant, their visceral reaction is an indication of what his words implied.
Jesus had an opportunity to clarify himself had he been misunderstood or misquoted by an evil Trinitarian in the crowd. He did not recant what he said nor is there a problem in the translation.
"My kingdom is not of this world"
Being that the very fabric of Judaism was woven with the idea of the Messiah establishing material-earthly rule, Jesus would not have delineated in this way. The kingdom that Jesus established, or attempted to establish was the "kingdom of heaven", the rule of God in the hearts of man as we submit to his will: "On earth as in heaven". He repeatedly spoke of the kingdom as a present tense reality not and interim kingdom nor some future kingdom brought on by an apocalyptic dooms day event.
" In my fathers house are many mansions, I would not tell you if it were not true" " I will return to lead you, that you may be where I am also.
Even at the late stage, just prior to Jesus' arrest, the apostles still did not realize the necessity of Jesus leaving. He had stretched their minds as far as they would allow but they still entertained theories given to them by the priest class about the deliverer coming to rule on behalf of the chosen people in the material world.
Jesus rules in the spiritual world, his spirit is present with us as it has been since he left. He has not left us as orphans, he leads all who desire his leadership. For he is the way the truth and the life.
" If you have seen me you have seen the father".
Not a messenger of the Father but The Father. The only way we can see the Father, at this early stage of our eternal career is in the personification of his Son(s).
"No one gets to the Father accept through me"
This has always been true and is applicable to anyone seeking God inside or outside of any religion. Christianity is but a warped shadow of the true gospel taught by Christ while on earth.
If Jesus were still just a man it would be hard to go "through him" to get to the Father but rather we are lead by his spirit and our faith.
In this way it is possible to believe "about Jesus" but not in him.
"In the begining was the word, the word was with God, the word was God"
no explanation nneded.
And last but not least, should Jesus return as the Messiah to rule for a thousand years (not sure what he will need to "rule" in that the world will made perfect) then you will have God the Father in heaven, the perfect person of God the son on earth , and the holy spirit. There is the Trinity, these entities are unified in divinity. The function in unison with the will of God, they are one God.
Colter
Last edited by Colter on Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Colter wrote: |
" Before Abraham was I AM"
All who were present on this occasion knew what Jesus meant, their visceral reaction is an indication of what his words implied. |
You should check the context again. I pretty sure what my position on this is, but if need be I will elaborate again.
| Colter wrote: | | Jesus had an opportunity to clarify himself had he been misunderstood or misquoted by an evil Trinitarian in the crowd. He did not recant what he said nor is there a problem in the translation. |
First of all, there were no 'trinitarians' in the crowd, of that I'm fairly certain.
Secondly, you don't hold the vast majority of the Bible as inspired, so you can't stand on your statement "nor is there a problem in the translation."
| Colter wrote: | "My kingdom is not of this world"
Being that the very fabric of Judaism was woven with the idea of the Messiah establishing material-earthly rule, Jesus would not have delineated in this way. |
The "fabric of Judiasm" as far as the mindset of the people -- certainly. The "fabric" of the OT scriptures...not without the prequel of the suffering servant.
| Colter wrote: | | The kingdom that Jesus established, or attempted to establish was the "kingdom of heaven", the rule of God in the hearts of man as we submit to his will: "On earth as in heaven". He repeatedly spoke of the kingdom as a present tense reality not and interim kingdom nor some future kingdom brought on by an apocalyptic dooms day event. |
There is the kingdom that now is to those abiding in Christ, and there is most certainly the future manifestation of God's Kingdom, ushered in by judgment and recompense of a righteous God. And, I know that you know there is no eternal fire that literally burns bad folks for eternity. So, please don't go to the judgment and recompense is the fiery hell full of brimstone thing, okay?
| Colter wrote: | " In my fathers house are many mansions, I would not tell you if it were not true" " I will return to lead you, that you may be where I am also.
Even at the late stage, just prior to Jesus' arrest, the apostles still did not realize the necessity of Jesus leaving. He had stretched their minds as far as they would allow but they still entertained theories given to them by the priest class about the deliverer coming to rule on behalf of the chosen people in the material world. |
I don't deny that; the mindset of the Jews in the time of Christ was a bit warped. Doesn't change the message of the OT scriptures. Same can be said today concerning "Christianity."
| Colter wrote: | | Jesus rules in the spiritual world, his spirit is present with us as it has been since he left. He has not left us as orphans, he leads all who desire his leadership. For he is the way the truth and the life. |
Huh?
| Colter wrote: | " If you have seen me you have seen the father".
Not a messenger of the Father but The Father. The only way we can see the Father, at this early stage of our eternal career is in the personification of his Son(s). |
So, you are a modalist?
| Colter wrote: |
"No one gets to the Father accept through me"
This has always been true and is applicable to anyone seeking God inside or outside of any religion. Christianity is but a warped shadow of the true gospel taught by Christ while on earth. |
I would certainly agree "Christianity" today is warped, but not as you suggest.
| Colter wrote: | | If Jesus were still just a man it would be hard to go "through him" to get to the Father but rather we are lead by his spirit and our faith. |
Okay, please clarify by "through him". If I, as an assistant to the CFO at my company am the only way a visitor can get to the CFO (as is the case since I "screen" visitors who wish to see the CFO), then they must go "through me" to get to him.
| Colter wrote: | | In this way it is possible to believe "about Jesus" but not in him. |
Huh?
| Colter wrote: | | "In the begining was the word, the word was with God, the word was God" |
If the word is Jesus, what is wisdom? The Wisdom of God has been with Him since the beginning as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: trinity |
|
|
| Quote: | | If the word is Jesus, what is wisdom? The Wisdom of God has been with Him since the beginning as well |
True, but then so were all of God's other attributes, however, none of them are described as the Word is as having "became flesh and dwelt among us" nor as for us "beholding his glory as of the only begotten son" have they.
I am trying to understand your position. God is eternal with no beginning nor ending, but Jesus has a beginning, as far as his physical birth, and an end, as far as his death. Is this your position or am I way out in left field? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Jesus rules in the spiritual world, his spirit is present with us as it has been since he left. He has not left us as orphans, he leads all who desire his leadership. For he is the way the truth and the life.
Huh? |
The leading of the spirit of truth in our hearts, just as when God revealed to the apostles who Jesus was.
said Jesus: 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
The Son and the Father still reveal "living truth" to those who will listen to it's personal guidance.
| Quote: | | So, you are a modalist? |
No
| Quote: | | Okay, please clarify by "through him". If I, as an assistant to the CFO at my company am the only way a visitor can get to the CFO (as is the case since I "screen" visitors who wish to see the CFO), then they must go "through me" to get to him. |
That's a good analogy but it seems to me that the CFO was unapproachable by the general public as he was ABSOLUTE so he created the rest of the board to escape the limitations otherwise inherent in primacy, perfection, changelessness, eternity, universality, absoluteness, and infinity. One board member is LOVE, another board member is MERCY, and another is JUSTICE. When God made the board, he became the board although still exists outside the board, in one aspect, as the CEO. The first source and center of all reality.
And the board is a living spirit reality, the board and it's many subordinate beings, lead all men to the Father.
One such subordinate violated the trust given to him and mislead the general public. His name was Lucifer, he caused all kinds of trouble because in his mind he did not believe that their was an original CEO that made the board. He wanted to start his own board.
However the Father, as a rule, does not interfere with the evolution of the company. The board is unified in the will of the Father. There is a time lag in justice as the Father hopes that the lost subordinate will repent but as all appeals were exhausted one of the Board members needed to incarnate in the flesh and win the general public over to the righteous will of the CEO, thus terminating the lost subordinate and expelling him from the company.
| Quote: | In this way it is possible to believe "about Jesus" but not in him.
Huh? |
Believing in God and being lead by God are two different things. We can belive that God wrote a book (bible/Urantia) but we need to have a personal relationship with him.
Colter |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: The Trinity is really teaching there are three gods |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: |
When the critics of Trinitarianism say it really teaches three gods, they demonstrate their lack of understanding of the doctrine and they either purposefully or mistakenly confuse it with something it is not. Trinitarianism denies and opposes the idea that there is more than one God. It is by definition, monotheistic. |
Here is a quote from James White, who I understand is a Trinirarian author:
"There are three eternal persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These three persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully diety---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit."
Sounds like three (count them) individual gods to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 151
|
| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote
When the critics of Trinitarianism say it really teaches three gods, they demonstrate their lack of understanding of the doctrine and they either purposefully or mistakenly confuse it with something it is not. Trinitarianism denies and opposes the idea that there is
more than one God. It is by definition, monotheistic.
That is exactly how the early Catholic church set it all up. It is hard to see the difference between what the Bible speaks of, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and the church teaching of these three entities being the one Triune God. This is the Pagan version of it's God's brought into Christian faith. It's doesn't work here.
God did not make Himself a man, come to earth and be killed for our sins.
I am not a criitic of the trinity, I just know it isn't true.
If you knew anything of the beliefs of a Jewish person you would not believe it either, and each of the persons involed here were Jews. Jesus/Yeshua was a Jew, the apostles were Jews, Saul, Paul was a Jew so what you and others who believe in the trinity are saying is that these people went against everything they believed and everything taught to them through God's word in the Torah, (first five books of the Old Testament) where God gave them His law. These people lived by God's law, they lived it, breathed it ate by it and slept beliieving it. No my friend there is but One God, He is not made up of three, there is no unity of three, He is one. For you to keep claiming He is triune is a sin against Him. That will not make Him a happy camper!
The Jewish faith at the time of Yeshua was much stricter then is is today. Yeshua knew this, He knew what God wanted us to know and He taught it. It is up to you to make sure that you understand His teachings. Yeshua did not, would not go against God's laws to teach a trinity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:17 am Post subject: Re: trinity |
|
|
| pato wrote: |
True, but then so were all of God's other attributes, however, none of them are described as the Word is as having "became flesh and dwelt among us" nor as for us "beholding his glory as of the only begotten son" have they. |
I beg to differ. Follow out the personalization of Wisdom in the scriptures. If wisdom is personalized in allegorical fashion, why all of a sudden is John's obvious allegory that introduces his gospel not?
| Quote: | | I am trying to understand your position. God is eternal with no beginning nor ending, but Jesus has a beginning, as far as his physical birth, and an end, as far as his death. Is this your position or am I way out in left field? |
Jesus certainly did have a beginning. As to his ending...well, that was only for three days; now he is immortal at the right hand of the Father.
Last edited by TwoPutt on Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pete wrote: |
| Quote: | When the critics of Trinitarianism say it really teaches three gods, they demonstrate their lack of understanding of the doctrine and they either purposefully or mistakenly confuse it with something it is not. Trinitarianism denies and opposes the idea that there is more than one God. It is by definition, monotheistic.
|
Here is a quote from James White, who I understand is a Trinirarian author:
"There are three eternal persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These three persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully diety---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit."
Sounds like three (count them) individual gods to me. |
Then you must really struggle with understanding the english language Pete, or simply cannot read. Where does 'gods' ever get mentioned?
Like I said before: I don't care if you accept the doctrine of the Trinity or not, but don't waste everyone's time by arguing something that simply is not the case. If all you can do, or wish to do, is misrepresent a thing - then move on and let people who actually have a clue of what they are talking about have the floor. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Colter wrote: |
The leading of the spirit of truth in our hearts, just as when God revealed to the apostles who Jesus was.
said Jesus: 16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[a] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
The Son and the Father still reveal "living truth" to those who will listen to it's personal guidance. |
I don't disagree; it is just that you and I have a distinct difference of opinion involving the definition of "living truth".
| Colter wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: | | So, you are a modalist? |
No |
Okay, so you are ascribing Jesus character as reflective of the Father's? If so, that is accurate as far as I understand it, and I'm fairly certain you know Christadelphians hold to this idea as well.
| Colter wrote: |
That's a good analogy but it seems to me that the CFO was unapproachable by the general public as he was ABSOLUTE so he created the rest of the board to escape the limitations otherwise inherent in primacy, perfection, changelessness, eternity, universality, absoluteness, and infinity. One board member is LOVE, another board member is MERCY, and another is JUSTICE. When God made the board, he became the board although still exists outside the board, in one aspect, as the CEO. The first source and center of all reality. |
I don't know what you are trying to establish here. I never mentioned a board...you're complicating a simple analogy I made. This is what the doctrine of the trinity does as well.
| Quote: | | And the board is a living spirit reality, the board and it's many subordinate beings, lead all men to the Father. |
You'll need to do more than make statements like this that leave open too many interpretations.
| Colter wrote: | | One such subordinate violated the trust given to him and mislead the general public. His name was Lucifer, he caused all kinds of trouble because in his mind he did not believe that their was an original CEO that made the board. He wanted to start his own board. |
Lucifier? I'm so surprised you reject so much of the Bible yet hold on so dearly to the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity.
| Colter wrote: | | However the Father, as a rule, does not interfere with the evolution of the company. The board is unified in the will of the Father. There is a time lag in justice as the Father hopes that the lost subordinate will repent but as all appeals were exhausted one of the Board members needed to incarnate in the flesh and win the general public over to the righteous will of the CEO, thus terminating the lost subordinate and expelling him from the company. |
Huh?
| Colter wrote: | | Believing in God and being lead by God are two different things. We can belive that God wrote a book (bible/Urantia) but we need to have a personal relationship with him. |
LOL...I like how you capitalized 'Urantia' but didn't bother with 'bible'. So, you hold the UB as more inspired than the error-ridden 'bible'? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: | | Pete wrote: |
| Quote: | When the critics of Trinitarianism say it really teaches three gods, they demonstrate their lack of understanding of the doctrine and they either purposefully or mistakenly confuse it with something it is not. Trinitarianism denies and opposes the idea that there is more than one God. It is by definition, monotheistic.
|
Here is a quote from James White, who I understand is a Trinirarian author:
"There are three eternal persons described in Scripture - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. These three persons are never identified with one another - that is, they are carefully differentiated as Persons.
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are identified as being fully diety---that is, the Bible teaches the Deity of Christ and the Deity of the Holy Spirit."
Sounds like three (count them) individual gods to me. |
Then you must really struggle with understanding the english language Pete, or simply cannot read. Where does 'gods' ever get mentioned? . |
Apparently you deny that the Father is God, as well.
Try using your dictionary and look up the word "deity". Incidently, I notice that you have still avoided all the verses I quoted from 1 John 2:22-24, and 2 John 9-11 concerning the doctrine of Christ, and he acknowledges no trinity. (See Col 2:9; Eph. 3:19 thread)
Evidently, you and other trinitarians know something that Christ and John didn't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Pete, you increasingly make less and less sense.
One True God manifested in three distinct persons...
where is the idea of three gods? Nowhere, at all, ever.
Like I said, argue the doctrine if you disagree with it, but actually argue the doctrine and not your made up misrepresentation of it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: | Pete, you increasingly make less and less sense.
One True God manifested in three distinct persons...
where is the idea of three gods? Nowhere, at all, ever.
Like I said, argue the doctrine if you disagree with it, but actually argue the doctrine and not your made up misrepresentation of it. |
Sorry JP, I didn't realize that you were a Modalist.
CARM Modalism
"Originally, a second and third century heresy that teaches there is only one Person in the Godhead.
While the Trinity doctrine teaches three distinct Persons, modalism maintains that one Person (usually the Father) has manifested Himself at different times under different names (Jesus/Spirit) or modes.
Thus, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three names for the same Person. Originally taught in various forms by Noetus, Praxeas and Sabellius."
I didn't make up 1st and 2nd John. When are you going to respond to those verses and quit playing "dodge-em"? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6817
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not dodging anything Pete, I'm just waiting for you to understand that you have no idea what you are talking about.
| Pete wrote: | CARM Modalism
"Originally, a second and third century heresy that teaches there is only one Person in the Godhead. |
and what did I post?
| Quote: | | One True God manifested in three distinct persons... |
So now we have the doctrine of the Trinity teaching ONE TRUE GOD manifested in three distinct persons, and we have you saying that the trinity teaches '3 gods' (completely against everything ever written about the Trinity), and then when I post that the Trinity teaches "ONE TRUE GOD manifested in three distinct persons", you come back and assert I am speaking of modalism which by your own post is entirely different that what I stated.
Basically it boils down to the demonstrative fact that you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about and simply wish to post nonsense in an effort to argue.
Don't waste my time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 806
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: | I'm not dodging anything Pete, I'm just waiting for you to understand that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Don't waste my time. |
I figured that you would avoid the verses that I quoted from 1st and 2nd John. Any time you want to quote any verse that "proves" trinity let me know. Trinity is nowhere taught by any of the apostles, or Christ.
I'm not interested in wasting your time. The only reason I respond at all is to let folks know that the doctrine of the trinity, in any form, is corrupt and unbiblical.
I'll stay with the doctrine of Christ, himself - Father and Son only. Anything else is antichrist. That includes the trinity. 1 John 2:22-24; 2 John 9-10.
These verses are unmistakeably clear. The doctrine of Christ is not a trinity, and trinity is not of Christ, it is antichrist, and a lie. (1 John 2: 22-23) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
