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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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Mojo,
Romans 11:1, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
1) God hath not cast away his people which he forknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
In Christ, Judy |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | Mojo,
Romans 11:1, "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
1) God hath not cast away his people which he forknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
In Christ, Judy |
How does that relate to the question I asked, Judy?
| Mojo wrote: | How do you reconcile that to the sins of the flesh that are spoken about in the NT?
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and these..........
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
etc.
Are you saying, besides the fearful and unbelieving, that the rest of these are not accounted as sins of the flesh? |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Mojo,
Mojo wrote:
| Quote: | How do you reconcile that to the sins of the flesh that are spoken about in the NT?
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and these..........
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
etc.
Are you saying, besides the fearful and unbelieving, that the rest of these are not accounted as sins of the flesh? |
Under the law one is a fornicator, idolator,adulter, effeminate and abuser of themselve with mankind, for to be guilty in one part of the law is to be guilty of all.
But under grace one has been made clean by the blood of the Lamb.
Isaiah 1:18, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
It is not by our efforts not to sin in the flesh that we have been made white as snow, it was by grace at the cross when Christ became a ransom for all.
It is interesting that the top of the list is the 'fearful' and 'unbeliving', but it is perfectly in order, for it is the fearful and unbeliving that cannot see past the flesh.
Romans 3:21, "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets".
In Christ, Judy |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3171
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | | Under the law one is a fornicator, idolator,adulter, effeminate and abuser of themselve with mankind, for to be guilty in one part of the law is to be guilty of all. |
this is where you lose me, nana. You are obviously saying that some are still under the law and sin in the flesh. But on the other hand, you say Jesus took away all sin in the flesh. If he took away all sin in the flesh, no one would be able to fall under the law and sin in the flesh. So obviously, the law was not done away with as some will still be judged under the law, which is a covenant of the flesh. That it is tied to belief isn't in doubt, but one can believe and still sin in the flesh.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
I just can't get my mind around your argument and I've seriously tried to understand it.
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mojo,
Please be patient with me as I do know what I am talking about, but have much difficultly saying it.
| Quote: | | this is where you lose me, nana. You are obviously saying that some are still under the law and sin in the flesh. But on the other hand, you say Jesus took away all sin in the flesh. If he took away all sin in the flesh, no one would be able to fall under the law and sin in the flesh |
First of all to believe, one must believe that Christ took away the sins of the world; not past sins, but all sin in the flesh once and for all.
The power of our redemption was that the floor was thouroughly purged of sin. The law was fulfilled by Christ and we are not guilty of sin, they only sin that one will be held accountable of is not believing.
Now, how does unbelief manifest itself? By claiming to be a sinner. Only the law has the power to make one a sinner so where does our faith come from, the law or the power of our redemption?
In Christ, Judy |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Mojo,
| Quote: | | Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified |
.
Rom 2:13, is saying that for one to be justified by the law a man must keep the law without fail. Galatians says it better.
Gal 3:10, "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."
The law pertained to the flesh, the law of God pertains to the spirit of the works of Christ. Before mans redemption Paul said, O wretched man that I am!
He asked: Who shall deliver me fro the body of this death?
Paul gave the answer: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin," Romans 7:24-25.
We are not in the flesh, if so be that the spirit of Christ (the Word) dwells in us.
No longer is forgiveness to be seen throught the law, it is to be seen by the spirit of our mind by the word. |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: Obviously |
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Greetings Judy
I am trying to condense this subject so i can get my mind around it, here goes:
#1 Obviously the battle against sin has been won by Jesus.
#2 Obviously those who choose to believe this are going to win this battle, if they remain faithful to the end.
#3 Obviously each one of us must participate in this battle for life, hopefully growing, becoming better worriors through the love, strength hope etc. we receive from our leader.
So what are we discussing? Wheather are not we are in a battle for our life? Even though the outcome is guranteed, if we remain faithful. The battle is in the word if, unless you believe the word if is not to be considered. I have asked you about the if word before but as far as i could tell you did not respond. Sincerly Jim D |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jim,
I have a short arrand to run and then I will be back and try to answer your questions. I am looking forward to it.
In Christ, Judy |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jim,
| Quote: | Greetings Judy
I am trying to condense this subject so i can get my mind around it, here goes:
#1 Obviously the battle against sin has been won by Jesus.
#2 Obviously those who choose to believe this are going to win this battle, if they remain faithful to the end.
#3 Obviously each one of us must participate in this battle for life, hopefully growing, becoming better |
worriors
#1, Yes the battle against sin in the flesh has been won by Christ' sacrifice and our faith in His sacrifice.
Col 1:13-14, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.
#2, Our battle is not with sin, our battle is holding fast to our profession of faith that we are not guilty.
Col 1:22-23, "In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblamable and unreprovab le in his sight:
23) If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard..."
#3, First we put on the new man by faith in believing we are who he says we are; new creatures.
Eph 4:23-24, "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."
Eph 6:12, "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rules of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
The true battle is against deception, that is why the Word continually warns us to take heed. So how do we fight the enemy?
Eph 6:14, "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15), And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16) Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17) And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God:"
I will continue this shortly.
In Christ, Judy |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Again Hi Jim,
| Quote: | So what are we discussing? Wheather are not we are in a battle for our life? Even though the outcome is guranteed, if we remain faithful. The battle is in the word if, unless you believe the word if is not to be considered. I have asked you about the if word before but as far as i could tell you did not respond. Sincerly Jim D
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The battle is to hold on to the faith that you are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and yes, it is a life time battle.
God is faithful to His word and if we hold fast we will be escorted abundantly into the kingdom of His dear Son.
| Quote: | | The battle is in the word if, unless you believe the word if is not to be considered. |
The battle is not in the word, the battle is fought by the word. The enemy will come at you from every angle to deceive and make you feel ashamed before God. But the Word says that we are more than conquerors.
We cast down every vain imagination and ever high thing that would exault itself against the knowledge of God.
If you do not have the knowledge of the word in you you cannot fight the battle. Not enough can be said about gaining knowledge of the Word.
Anything or anyone that says that you are less than perfect before God is an enemy. Christ is in you, you are complete in Him, we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing that will equip us to stand boldly before the throne of Grace.
We willl not fail when we are asked to give an account of ourselves before God, because we are born of God. We do not judge ourselves by the man of the flesh, we judge ourselves by the Spirit, and the spirit says that we are holy and complete in him.
I John 4:17, "Herein is our love made perfect, that we MY HAVE BOLDNESS IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD."
I hope that this answers your questions, if not just say so, I am here.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: Where the rubber meats the road. |
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Judy:
Now i am beginning to understand!
Jesus Fought the battle against sin and won. We are going to be the beneficeries of this if we can win the battle of faith that what He did makes us winners also. Sin and doubt is what gnaws away at this faith and can cause us to loose faith if we allow it. That is why it is so important to grow in grace, love, knowledge and hope.
Now to get on with the daily application of this: when we try to live out this love with others as we encounter the needy around us. Do they have to qualify in any way shape or form for us to help them? Respectfully, Jim D |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jim,
Jim wrote:
| Quote: | Judy:
Now i am beginning to understand!
Jesus Fought the battle against sin and won. We are going to be the beneficeries of this if we can win the battle of faith that what He did makes us winners also. Sin and doubt is what gnaws away at this faith and can cause us to loose faith if we allow it. That is why it is so important to grow in grace, love, knowledge and hope.
Now to get on with the daily application of this: when we try to live out this love with others as we encounter the needy around us. Do they have to qualify in any way shape or form for us to help them? Respectfully, Jim D |
I am not quite sure if you really understand or not Jim, please correct me if i am wrong.
Yes Jesus fought the battle against sin and won, but we are not going to be the beneficiaries of this marvelous gift, we are beneficiaries here and now.
Our faith is that we believe we have no sin here and now. Sin is dead and we are to have NO sin conscienceness. There is no good thing in the flesh, but the flesh spiritually died at the cross and we walk according to the spirit.
No, no one can qualify in any way shape or form to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. All they need to know is that 2000 years ago mankind was forgiven of sin in the flesh and God holds nothing against anyman and if they believe in their heart unto righteousness they will be saved.
Christ does not forgive a man of sin at the altar of his church, or anywhere for that matter, Christ forgave the world of sin when He went to the cross.
Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world.
Phil 3:9, "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death."
We died with Him and were raised with Him. Sins were cut away at the cross and man was born again a new creature in Christ Jesus.
Did he do it just for the church? No, he did it for the world so that all who believe might have everlasting life.
I John 2:2, ...For he is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Judy: I should have left out the words (going to be), it is so hard to communicate. No wonder people have so much trouble.
For instance, i think you completely missed the question i asked in the last part of my post. I was asking, in your daily life as you come in contact with people in need, do you help them whether you think they deserve it or not? Do they have to meat certain criteria? Do you keep on helping them even when it seems hopeless? I am speaking of material and physical help. How do you handle this part of loving others that is so critical in our walking as Jesus walked, or do you think it is critical? |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jim,
Yes, it is important to show love to everyone. I personally help the widow lady down the street and yet she is not at all interested in eternal life.
If it is in my power I love to help those who need help, however I will not give an alcoholic money to support his habit, nor those who are able to work but won't.
I have neighbors that do drugs and if they were in trouble I would help them, but I will not support their habit. The help that I would give them would be more like emergency help.
I am always honest in my dealings and all that I do I do it as though I am doing it for my Lord. If I give money, I am giving it to Jesus. It is a wonderful way to give, that way if they misuse it you have no regrets. God always knows our hearts.
It is important to use some kind of judgment when helping others. One cannot neglect their immediate family and personal obligations, they come first. It does no good for you to become a liability rather than an asset.
I always am looking for a way to share the Word, and that is always my priority, but even if they don't listen I still care about them.
Hope this is helpful. What I am saying is how I deal with the world and has nothing to do with the spirit.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Judy wrote
Hope this is helpful. |
Yes Judy, our conversation has been very helpful, and i am looking forward to many more.God Bless, Jim D |
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