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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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 Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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Hi again Jim,
| Quote: | Hi Judy
Thank you for your reply, I am glad i misunderstood you, also to find someone who understands all, Old Testament and New, are saved the same way, all receive the Holy Spirit the same. Do you also believe that we all fall the same way that Adam did, by unbelief? Would it be correct then to say we sin but we are not sinners because of what Christ did for us on the cross? Is this what John means in 1Jn.1:8 "if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves" and in 3:6 "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning" (not intensionally anyway)? |
Unbelief in God's Word has always been the problem. Unbelief in God's Word is what made Adam and Eve run and hide from Him.
When Christ went to the cross and relieved us of sin in the flesh and reconciled all men unto himself (II Cor 5:18-19) it was then that 'the faith' in his blood will present us unashamed before Him in the day of judgment.
The problem is that the churches have corrupted the Word of truth and believe that Christ only died for ones past sins and that one is still a sinner.
John 1:29, "...Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
There is no faith in believing that Christ only took past sins, and if there is no faith then one cannot stand before God unashamed. A pure conscience is what is required to stand before God. If one believes that he is still born the 'old man' he is doomed, for he will condemn himself.
Heb 9:9, (the blood of bull and goats that were offered) "could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience."
Full confidence in the sacrifice of Christ is what is required to be presented holy and unashamed before Him.
In Christ, Judy
P.S. I will never get bored with the Truth. As long as we search out the truth together it is my greatest pleasure to continue. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Greetings Jim,
| Quote: | | Would it be correct then to say we sin but we are not sinners because of what Christ did for us on the cross? Is this what John means in 1Jn.1:8 "if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves" and in 3:6 "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning" (not intensionally anyway)? |
I John has been used to keep the churches under the law. To understand to books of John it is important to know that John was writing to the Jew (Gal 2:9). The first book concentrates on them loving their brother, their 'new adopted Gentile brother'.
When Christ died for the sins of the world he made both Jew and Gentile 'one'. This was and is to this day a hard concept for the Jews, for years of hatred toward the Gentiles had become part of their tradition.
The book of John informs them how important it is to love their brother and if they will they will be cleansed of ALL unrighteousness.
They must believe that Christ reconciled the world unto himself or they stand in unbelief.They do not believe the words of the prophets or the words of the apostles or the account that God has given of his Son Jesus Christ when he says plainly that all men were reconciled to God.
This is why John goes on to say that :
John 2:2, "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Sin in the flesh is gone, dead and completely forgiven every man, but the sin of not believing that it is, is not to believe in Christ at all.
It is in the belief that Christ took the sin of the world once and for all that will give us boldness in the day of judgment.
I John 4:17, "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is (Christ) so are we in this world."
If one can say that Christ redeemed the world of sin and sees that we have been made one in Christ, then you cannot sin because you are born of God, born of the words of truth, you believe, which is the purest form of love the mouths of the righteous have to offer.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 510
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:26 am Post subject: slow to understand |
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Hello Judy
I suppose you feel like you answered all my questions but i need you to be more specific, i am kind of slow and a concrete thinker (i think this means i am thick headed) if you could indulge me please  Thank you Jim D |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Greetings Jim,
No, I didn't think for one moment that we were done. I have been over 45 years seeking the knowledge of the truth and though the truth is pretty plain and simple, it is the false doctrine that we have all been exposed to that makes finding the truth difficult.
If you have a lot chucked into your questions then I will probably not answer the whole thing, but will concentrate on just some major points, because the whole thing will truly make one feel 'thich headed'.
May God richly bless you in knowledge; true knowledge.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Young Wolf
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 510
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Judy, i will slow down ,it,s what i am best at, i have to go for now, God bless!  |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | , it is the false doctrine that we have all been exposed to that makes finding the truth difficult.
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I see this as the chaff that gets beaten of in the threshingfloor.. 
eventually..
hugs nana
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Also Jim,
On the things that you wish me to be more specific on, point them out. I need to know on what issues I am not making clear.
In Christ, Judy |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Goodmorning lone, hugs,
lone wrote:
| Quote: | I see this as the chaff that gets beaten of in the threshingfloor..
eventually.. |
You are correct lone, but it is not enough to say it, it is something that needs to be dealt with before he returns lest we be found lacking in the faith.
If it is deception then one needs to take heed.
Jude 1:4, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
In Christ, Judy |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:13 am Post subject: |
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and yet we are told:
1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Maybe Paul means that some of the chaff must remain on the floor..so that the truth will always manifest itself among them?
Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase [them].
Jer 23:28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What [is] the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
sorry nana ..didn't mean to hijack the thread..
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jim,
Went back over the post to see if there were any questions I failed to answer.
| Quote: | By the way, i do believe that Eph. 4:5 is referring to Spiritual bapt. and also most of other scripture except where it is clearly referring to water.
I hope you do not get bored, i have many other questions, like do you believe a true believer can ever become an unbeliever and die lost? Thank you for your patience. Jim D |
On the matter of baptism:
When Christ went to the cross all mankind bore the same fate; all mankind was baptised into His death.
Col 2:12, "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him throught the faith of the operation of God, who hath raise him from the dead."
The operation of God is spiritual, but we would have no way of understanding the 'washing away of the sins of the flesh' when Christ died, had he not given us a visual example of water baptism. The next verse should be our belief:
Col 2:13, "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL TRESPASSES;"
The doctrine of water baptism was something that preceeded 'the faith'. If one never comes near a body of water in his life time, he was baptised into Christ's death and died to sin spiritually and raised with him from the dead by the spiritual operation of God.
Heb 6:1-2, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2) Of the doctrine of baptisms; and of laying on of hands,..."
The 'true spiritual baptism' by faith produces the perfect man.
In Christ, Judy |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi nana,
I've just been looking at the following. In context, this is the hour of Jesus' death.
Jhn 12:37 ¶ But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Jhn 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
Jhn 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Jhn 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
So this is the fulfilment of Is 6;
Isa 6:9 ¶ And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 6:11 ¶ Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and [there be] a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 But yet in it [shall be] a tenth, and [it] shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance [is] in them, when they cast [their leaves: so] the holy seed [shall be] the substance thereof.
Would this not be a notable exception to taking away the sins of the whole world?
And why does Peter say this;
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Who is the **we** that is healed by his stripes?
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mojo,
Mojo wrote:
| Quote: | 1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Who is the **we** that is healed by his stripes? |
It was the Jews who were healed of sin.
Isaiah 1:5-6, "...the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
6) From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."
But their Messiah changed all that ; their sins and aniquities were forgiven at the cross and the Gentiles were adopted into the promise.
Galatians 4:4-6, "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5)To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
Thus:
Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hi nana, how does this relate to what Jesus said concerning the prophecy of Is. that they wouldn't be healed and that it was to last till ....
Isa 6:11 ¶ Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and [there be] a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi again Mojo,
Just to clarify, it is not sin in the flesh that one will be guilty of in the day of judgment, that has been forgiven.
Today the orthodox Jews and nearly all Christians do not believe that the Jewish Messiah Jesus Christ took away the sins of the world.
The Jews don't acknowledge the Messiah mainly because they hate their brother the Gentile and the Christians, because they don't believe that the world was forgiven of sin in the flesh once and for all.
I am happy that there is a remnant who will believe to the saving of their soul when he returns.
In Christ, Judy |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3238
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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How do you reconcile that to the sins of the flesh that are spoken about in the NT?
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
and these..........
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
etc.
Are you saying, besides the fearful and unbelieving, that the rest of these are not accounted as sins of the flesh?
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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