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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings Jeff,
| Quote: | | Actually, I believe that Paul does - in the early part of Romans 6 - refer to water baptism. . |
Paul is talking about baptism, but it is the washing of water by the word. Water baptism only cleans the outside of the cup and it is the inside of the cup that matters.
The inside of the cup, so to speak, is your conscience and that can only be cleansed by knowing who you are in Christ.
Can water baptism purify my conscience? no it cannot.
When Christ went to the cross we went with him, when he rose again we rose with him new creatures in Christ Jesus. Can physical water make you a new creature? Could we be circumcised with the circumcision made without hands in the cutting away of the sins of the flesh by water baptism? No.
I Peter 3:21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (NOT THE PUTTING AWAY OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH, BUT THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD,) BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST:"
In Christ, Judy |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hello again,
The Epistles of Paul never recommend water baptism nor do any of the other epistles. Water baptism is only recommended in the gospels and the book of acts when the church was in its beginning. By the time Paul revealed the mystery of godliness we were supose to have been drawn from the milk and gone on to spiritual matters.
Heb 61-2, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of fatih toward God. Of the doctrine of baptisms and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
We have not gone on unto perfection because the power of the resurrection has been overlooked and ignored by remaining in the physical things that should have brought us into the Light.
In Christ, Judy |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I keep hearing..."remember Lot's wife"... |
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jeff
Sea Monkey
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | Greetings Jeff,
| Quote: | | Actually, I believe that Paul does - in the early part of Romans 6 - refer to water baptism. . |
Paul is talking about baptism, but it is the washing of water by the word. Water baptism only cleans the outside of the cup and it is the inside of the cup that matters.
The inside of the cup, so to speak, is your conscience and that can only be cleansed by knowing who you are in Christ.
Can water baptism purify my conscience? no it cannot.
When Christ went to the cross we went with him, when he rose again we rose with him new creatures in Christ Jesus. Can physical water make you a new creature? Could we be circumcised with the circumcision made without hands in the cutting away of the sins of the flesh by water baptism? No.
I Peter 3:21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (NOT THE PUTTING AWAY OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH, BUT THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD,) BY THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST:"
In Christ, Judy |
Actually, this topic has been one of great debate for many many years.
I clearly see water baptism here, otherwise Paul would not have made the correlation of "buried" in verse 4. Baptism is a symbolic burial of the old person of sin. And, of course, verse 5's mention of resurrection is symbolized by coming up out of the water.
But yes, you're right, baptism is indeed a sacrament - that is, an outward symbol/sign of the transformation taking place inside.
To use the illustration of marriage again... I performed a wedding just 2 weeks ago, and baptisms these past two Sundays. In the case of the wedding, it was not my presence or actions that brought this couple together, nor were my words during the ceremony some sort of magic wand. I was simply involved in the public proclamation and the "sealing of the deal". Would they have been married without the wedding? No.
In the case of the baptisms I performed, it was not my faith or my actions that somehow saved these people. But their going down into the water and coming up out of the water were symbolic proclamations of their death to sin, burial of it, and resurrection to new life.
That's my long-winded way of saying that I don't think we can separate outward act and the inward grace of baptism.  |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jeff,
| Quote: | | In the case of the baptisms I performed, it was not my faith or my actions that somehow saved these people. But their going down into the water and coming up out of the water were symbolic proclamations of their death to sin, burial of it, and resurrection to new life. |
But your baptism did nothing, they went down into the water a sinner and came up out of the water and still they are sinners! Don't you see something wrong here?
Is there not a baptism that will free us from sin all together??? I know that there is and it is with that baptism that we were all born into when we died with Christ some 2000 years ago.
In Christ, Judy |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| jeff wrote: | Actually, I believe that Paul does - in the early part of Romans 6 - refer to water baptism.
But his point is not water baptism.
His point is dying to self and living to God - and he's using our baptism as the focal point at which that death/burial/resurrection [dbr] takes place.
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Hi PJ[Pastor Jeff],
I mainly agree with you.
But what do you mean by what you say is paul's point?
How do I die to self?
How do I live to God?
If baptism is not the point,
how cd it also be the focal point?
See what I mean?
And if baptism is a symbol, what is the reality?
Based on acts 2:38,
what comes before baptism?
Is what comes before baptism both the reality and focal point at which that dbr takes place, and which reality and focal point is what baptism is only a symbol of?
What is that which happens at repentance
that makes us die TO something,
that makes us be IN something,
and
that makes us come out of IN something which makes us as NEW TO God , which 3 makings are what the dbr at baptism are perfect symbols?
In Love and r,
atoz |
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jeff
Sea Monkey
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| atoz wrote: | | jeff wrote: | Actually, I believe that Paul does - in the early part of Romans 6 - refer to water baptism.
But his point is not water baptism.
His point is dying to self and living to God - and he's using our baptism as the focal point at which that death/burial/resurrection [dbr] takes place.
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Hi PJ[Pastor Jeff],
I mainly agree with you.
But what do you mean by what you say is paul's point?
How do I die to self?
How do I live to God?
If baptism is not the point,
how cd it also be the focal point?
See what I mean?
And if baptism is a symbol, what is the reality?
Based on acts 2:38,
what comes before baptism?
Is what comes before baptism both the reality and focal point at which that dbr takes place, and which reality and focal point is what baptism is only a symbol of?
What is that which happens at repentance
that makes us die TO something,
that makes us be IN something,
and
that makes us come out of IN something which makes us as NEW TO God , which 3 makings are what the dbr at baptism are perfect symbols?
In Love and r,
atoz |
What I mean is that baptism is not the focal point of the early part of Romans 6.
The majority of Paul's letter to the Romans has to do with the fact that we are saved by faith, not by what we do (works). It is especially important to note that Paul's original audience was about half Gentile and half Jewish - and that the Jews believed you had to be a Jew first, and uphold the entirety of the Law in order to be saved. Then you added on top of that your belief that Jesus is the Messiah.
Paul, of course, is saying, "No, you're not saved by observing the Law. You're saved by faith in Jesus the Christ." And he goes on to give examples of Patriarchs being saved by their faith, and their actions stemming their faith. He also makes it clear that God's glory is exemplified in His grace and love, extended to us in mercy.
Then chapter 6 begins almost as though we're hearing one side of a phone conversation. The argument that has obviously been thrown at Paul is, "Well, if God is glorified by forgiving my sins through grace, then he'll be glorified all the more if I sin all the more." That's the point Paul is addressing in verse 1.
So Romans 6 is really an addressing of the point, "You died to your old sinful self, and now live to Christ." And Paul uses the illustration of baptism to make that point - the death, burial and resurrection symbolized in water baptism.
As to some of your other questions: Great questions!
I believe one of our greatest problems is that we try to separate all these things - belief, repentance, faith, confession, baptism. I think we wrongly try to put them in some chronological order, then determine exactly where salvation takes place. (Several years ago, I got a call from a church in a distant city. A young man from my church had moved there, and wanted to transfer his membership. But they HAD to know if I'd "said the right words in the right order" at his baptism - otherwise, his baptism wouldn't be valid in their church. THIS is an example of majoring in minors, concerning baptism!)
Finally, based on Acts 2:38, it seems to me that a person would believe before baptism - and this is more than just a "Yeah, I believe it's gonna be hot today" kind of belief. It's a faith belief. It also seems clear that repentance (turning away from whatever else we've pursued) precedes baptism. Without belief & repentance, why would one ever choose to be baptized? |
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jeff
Sea Monkey
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | Hi Jeff,
| Quote: | | In the case of the baptisms I performed, it was not my faith or my actions that somehow saved these people. But their going down into the water and coming up out of the water were symbolic proclamations of their death to sin, burial of it, and resurrection to new life. |
But your baptism did nothing, they went down into the water a sinner and came up out of the water and still they are sinners! Don't you see something wrong here?
Is there not a baptism that will free us from sin all together??? I know that there is and it is with that baptism that we were all born into when we died with Christ some 2000 years ago.
In Christ, Judy |
No, I don't see something wrong here.
They went down into the water a sinner, and came up out of the water a forgiven sinner (according to Acts 2:38).
We do not become sinless. We become forgiven sinners.
And no, I don't believe there is a baptism that will set us free from sin altogether (unless I'm not following your line of thought here). Even the apostle Paul struggled with sin in his own life (Romans 7:7ff). |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Greetings Jeff,
| Quote: | | And no, I don't believe there is a baptism that will set us free from sin altogether (unless I'm not following your line of thought here). Even the apostle Paul struggled with sin in his own life (Romans 7:7ff). |
You are understanding my line of thought perfectly. Yes, I do believe that the death we were baptised into when we died with Christ at the cross set me entirely free from sin in the flesh. And I do not believe that Romans 7:7 is saying that Paul struggled with sin at all.
Being righteous when Christ returns is imparative and being a self declared sinner just won't do. If you are a sinner then you are still under the law and you know that righteousness does not come by the works of the law, We we must stand in a greater works; the works of Christ.
True humility is not saying that you are still a sinner, that is the height of ignorance. Truly humility is that there was nothing I could do to be righteous but believe in His works.
It is my great joy to declare that I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus and when he returns I will not be ashamed. |
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jeff
Sea Monkey
Joined: 03 Oct 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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| nana wrote: | Greetings Jeff,
| Quote: | | And no, I don't believe there is a baptism that will set us free from sin altogether (unless I'm not following your line of thought here). Even the apostle Paul struggled with sin in his own life (Romans 7:7ff). |
And I do not believe that Romans 7:7 is saying that Paul struggled with sin at all. |
Could you explain that a little more clearly? I wonder if we're just using different words, but meaning the same thing...
I see this passage (Romans 7:7ff) as Paul speaking of his continual struggle to put aside sinful thoughts, temptations and actions, and submit fully to Christ. I don't see it as Paul worried that he has too much sin in his life, that will "tip the scales" away from his salvation.
How do you see that passage?
Thanks! |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Thanx, PJ!
We are agreed---we just say the same thing in other words!smile
In the Love that
sees each word in all other words
and
sees all other words in each word,
atoz |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Greetings Jeff,
Paul in Romans 7:7 is another way of saying that the law is the knowledge of sin. He is not saying that he is struggling with sin he is saying that man would not have known sin had it not been for the law.
He is ultimately saying that if you don't know offense then you will not know the need for a savior.
Paul is saying that sin is revealed under the law.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: ALL SAVED THE SAME WAY |
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| This has been a very very interesting thread but could we all agree that everyone (Old and New Testament) who has true faith and trust in God to the best of their ability and depending on the light that God has provided them is free from sin? I ask this because it sometimes sounds like you are saying that people in the Old Testament received salvation another way than by Christ! It also sometimes sounds like you are saying we must understand theologically what you understand in order not to be a sinner! I hope and trust that I am wrong. Jim D |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jim,
In both the OT and NT those who believe in God were and are free from sin. Sacrifices were made for sin in the flesh by animals in the OT and in the NT Christ was the one time sacrifice for sin.
The only difference was animals cannot make ones conscience pure because they were continual. Christ was offered up one time once and for all and therefore because we believe we should have no sin consciousness.
I have never studies theology, just the Bible. I know that 'a pure conscious' is the secret to everlasting life, but few believe that Christ took away the sin of the world once and for all and so the obvious thing to believe is that they are still sinners.
We must stand before God one day and if one does not believe that the world has been reconciled to God and completely and totally forgive of sin in the flesh, he is in the plainest words an unbeliever.
I believe that religion has made the Bible near impossible to understand. Believing that Christ died for the sins of the world...well....even and baby can understand that.
In Christ, Judy |
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JimD
Rattlesnake
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 435
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Judy
Thank you for your reply, I am glad i misunderstood you, also to find someone who understands all, Old Testament and New, are saved the same way, all receive the Holy Spirit the same. Do you also believe that we all fall the same way that Adam did, by unbelief? Would it be correct then to say we sin but we are not sinners because of what Christ did for us on the cross? Is this what John means in 1Jn.1:8 "if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves" and in 3:6 "no one who lives in him keeps on sinning" (not intensionally anyway)?
I am going back to slowly study this thread and i have found some discussion about baptism. The scripture talks about a water baptism, and a Spiritual bapt.(which all who ever did or ever will trust in God, receive, the Spiritual one i mean) and also a special (Miraculous) Spiritual bapt., as on the day of Pentecost, which only certain selected believers received, so why does Eph. 4:5 say there is only one bapt.,i do not understand. By the way, i do believe that Eph. 4:5 is referring to Spiritual bapt. and also most of other scripture except where it is clearly referring to water.
I hope you do not get bored, i have many other questions, like do you believe a true believer can ever become an unbeliever and die lost? Thank you for your patience. Jim D |
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