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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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 Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| RevivedJP wrote: | | The doctrine of the Trinity does NOT speak of more than one god, or three gods, or any other nonsense strawmen the non-trinitarians try to set up. |
Wait a second. I'm a non-Trinitarian and I have never set up any such strawmen. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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My bad, I must've missed the part where I said EVERY non-trinitarian...
Oh wait... I didn't say that after all, did I?  |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP, what other sort of non-trinitarian is there apart from the non-trinitarians? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: |
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cballard,
Hi, 
| cballard wrote: | | Notice the difference of man being made in the image of God in Genesis, but Jesus being made in the image of the invisible God. |
No. God was still invisible when He made man. Adding the word invisible doesn't change anything. What exactly do you believe this difference is?
Also, that scripture says "the firstborn of all creation". Do you know what that means?
| cballard wrote: | How about Col. 2:9 For in him dwells the whole fullness of the diety bodily
What does this mean "fullness of the diety"? |
Jesus is a god. Also he is similar to Jehovah as he was taught by Him.
| cballard wrote: | | And who else could do the same things the Father does? |
Whoever The Father gives His Holy Spirit too. Jesus was able to preform those asts of healing and of resurrection by means of God's Holy Spirit.
| cballard wrote: | | Not another angel or another man. Only Jesus could do what the Father does because He too was God. |
Paul resurrected someone. Is he also God?
| cballard wrote: | | God the Son |
Again, a term not found in the Bible. "God the Son" was made up by men.
Later.
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Apoc,
Hi,
| Apoc wrote: | | In the context of the relationship betwen the Father and the Son, the begetting of the Son is not the creation of the Son for the same reason that the begetting of Life is not the same as the creation of Life. |
What??? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| Tbax wrote: | | Paul resurrected someone. |
No he didn't. In Biblical terms, there is a world of a difference between resurrection and resuscitation. Only Christ has been raised in a spiritual body. |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: trinity |
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Tbax wrote:
| Quote: | Also, that scripture says "the firstborn of all creation". Do you know what that means?
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Do you? It doesn't stop there, it goes on to explain what it's talking about.
15-Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16- For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17- And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18- And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
John 1:1 shows the one who became Jesus existed in the beginning with God and was God, not a god, was God. He emptied himself of his divinity to be able to suffer death (you can't kill God) for us, he had to be born a human being in order to die. Have you ever noticed the difference between how Jesus was before and after his death, before his death he could do nothing of and by himself, after his death and resurrection, all power was given to him, he prayed that the Father would restore the glory he had with him from the beginning. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Apoc,
Hi,
| Apoc wrote: | | No he didn't. In Biblical terms, there is a world of a difference between resurrection and resuscitation. |
What??? Do you think Lazarus was just resuscitated as well? You are seriously missing the point I was making. 
Tell me. Was this a medical procedure, or was it by means of Holy Spirit that Peter was able to do this:
Acts 9:36 But in Jop´pa there was a certain disciple named Tab´i·tha, which, when translated, means Dor´cas. She abounded in good deeds and gifts of mercy that she was rendering. 37 But in those days she happened to fall sick and die. So they bathed her and laid her in an upper chamber. 38 Now as Lyd´da was near Jop´pa, when the disciples heard that Peter was in this city they dispatched two men to him to entreat [him]: “Please do not hesitate to come on as far as us.” 39 At that Peter rose and went with them. And when he arrived, they led him up into the upper chamber; and all the widows presented themselves to him weeping and exhibiting many inner garments and outer garments that Dor´cas used to make while she was with them. 40 But Peter put everybody outside and, bending his knees, he prayed, and, turning to the body, he said: “Tab´i·tha, rise!” She opened her eyes and, as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up.
Those were examples of resurrections. True, they weren't permanent or as important as Jesus' resurrection, but they were resurrections.
Didn't you see the question directly applied to you in that post?
Later.
Last edited by TBax on Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:33 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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pato,
Hi,
It is true that after Jesus creation all other things were created through him. And it is also true that he is "the firstborn of every creature" or "the firstborn of all creation". Jesus had an origin! 
| pato wrote: | | after his death and resurrection, all power was given to him, he prayed that the Father would restore the glory he had with him from the beginning. |
Who gave Jesus that power and authority? Jesus had great glory before he came to earth, as all things were created through him. He was God's master worker. Jesus was born a human and made a little lower then the angels. Because of Jesus faithfulness God exalted Jesus above his partners the angels.
Jesus was resurrected at this point, yet notice how Jesus and God are spoken of as being seperate, and notice I didn't say Jesus and the Father, but Jesus and God.
Rev 1:1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him,
Now, who gave Jesus this revelation?
1 Cor 11:3 But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.
Who is the head of Jesus?
| pato wrote: | | John 1:1 shows the one who became Jesus existed in the beginning with God and was God, not a god, was God. |
Then why is the definite article not in front of "theos" when describing what Jesus was?
Later. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Tbax wrote: | | What??? Do you think Lazarus was just resuscitated as well? |
For certain. Lazarus died after being resuscitated. Resurrected life cannot die. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Apoc,
Was Lazarus dead?
Was he brought back to life?
res·ur·rect
1. to raise from the dead; bring to life again.
It is true that the future resurrection can have lasting benefits, unlike these ones. However these ones were also resurrections.
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead by resurrection; but other [men] were tortured because they would not accept release by some ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection.
Later. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Tbax wrote: |
res·ur·rect
1. to raise from the dead; bring to life again. |
TBax, do you not see the distinction that the Bible draws between mere resuscitation of a corpse (Lazarus) and being raised in an incorruptible, imperishable, spiritual body vitalized by the very eternal Life of God? |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Apoc,
I don't agree that Lazarus was "merely resuscitated" (sounds like you are minimising what actually took place here) but I understand what you are talking about. Yes there is a difference, but Lazarus was still resurrected. The incorruptible, imperishable, spiritual body is speaking of the resurrection Jesus enjoyed, as well as those that will rule with him, the 144,000. The Bible calls that the "first resurrection". The rest are resurrected to life on earth. They will enjoy this scene:
Rev 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
Both types of resurrection are a "better resurrection" to what those ones in Bible times experienced. Hence:
Heb 11:35 Women received their dead by resurrection; but other [men] were tortured because they would not accept release by some ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection.
You are speaking about a "better resurrection". The fact remains Lazarus was resurrected.
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP
Rocket, do you not understand? The doctrine of the Trinity does NOT speak of more than one god, or three gods, or any other nonsense strawmen the non-trinitarians try to set up.
RevJP I would have to answer you very simply, yes I know the doctrine of the trinity, that is exactly why I do not believe it.
Now let me ask you a simple question and see if you can answer it.
Who do you owe your allegiance to, the church or God?
Personally I owe my allegiance to God and Him alone will I serve, through His son Jesus Christ. Jesus was a Jew and did not teach anywhere in the bible that there exists a trinity.
As long as I have breath in my body I will continue to try to get people to understand this. One more thing, it is impossible to deny something that does not exist. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1937
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocket wrote: | | One more thing, it is impossible to deny something that does not exist. |
???????
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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So Rocket, am I to understand from your last post that you either did not understand what I said, or that you chose to ignore it so you could come back later and make the same ridiculous claim about the doctrine of the trinity claiming three 'gods'?
| Rocket wrote: | | RevJP I would have to answer you very simply, yes I know the doctrine of the trinity, that is exactly why I do not believe it. |
I would assert that you do not know the doctrine of the trinity simply based on the fact that in none of your posts thus far have you demonstrated any such knowledge. |
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