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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: The Gutting of the Justice Department |
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It is a little-known fact that the Bush Administration has quietly been gutting the Justice Department, hiring lawyers based on their religious views rather on their legal competency.
Regent University is a fourth-rate Christian law school founded by Pat Robertson with TERRIBLE academic standards, but somehow since Bush took over, suddenly 150 positions in the Justice Department are held by Regent graduates!
Check out this article:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/09/opinion/courtwatch/main2665402.shtml
| Quote: | Goodling’s religious-toned resignation letter should come as no surprise. It turns out that she is an alum of Regent University School of Law, a Christian institution founded by televangelist Pat Robertson which is ranked by U.S. News and World Report as the 136th-best law school in the nation (other rankings are only slightly more kind). Savage reports that Regent became a feeder school for executive branch positions after the Bush administration in 2001 "picked the dean of Regent's government school, Kay Coles James, to be the director of the Office of Personnel Management — essentially the head of human resources for the executive branch."
One year later, Savage reports, in 2002, then-Attorney General John Ashcroft — who led prayer meetings at the Justice Department, remember — changed the hiring rules at the Department to make it easier for ideological candidates (and for candidates with unimpressive academic credentials) to be selected to serve as career lawyers. Our government, our Justice Department, no longer seeks only the best and the brightest from our nation's law schools. Instead, it allows itself to be overrun with fourth-rate lawyers (Regent was ranked in the fourth tier of law schools) whose political views and loyalties are convenient and useful to implementing the administration's policies. |
Wikipedia also gives some information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent_University
| Quote: | A Regent web page claimed that 150 graduates have served in the George W. Bush administration.[15] This statement was removed shortly after this claim was reported on in the national media[16], but as of April 20, 2007, is again listed on the page.[17] The language was changed from stating that the graduates were "serving" in the Bush administration, to state that they "have served" in the Bush administration, an apparent response to the resignation of Monica Goodling. Boston Globe journalist Charlie Savage, noting that previously it was rare for Regent graduates to join the government, has suggested that the appointment of Office of Personnel Management director Kay Coles James, formerly dean of Regent's government school, caused this sharp increase in Regent alumni employed in the government.[3] Savage used Regent as an example of the Bush administration hiring applicants with strong conservative credentials but weaker academic qualifications and less civil rights experience than past candidates in the Civil Rights Division.[3][18]
Similar assertions have been made by columnists Dahlia Lithwick of the Washington Post,[19] Paul Krugman of the New York Times[20] and Andrew Cohen of CBS News.[21] Savage illustrated graduates' conservatism by noting a Regent graduate who stated that Lawrence v. Texas, the ruling striking down an anti-sodomy law, was the Supreme Court decision from the last 20 years with which he disagreed most.[3] |
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
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Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 9:45 am Post subject: |
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How many lawyers does the Justice department have? We're in real trouble if all they have is 150. But we must also recognize that Regent University Law school has a little better reputation now that it is older than 9 years old.
I've heard that the resumes of these graduates were expunged of any political ties after they were hired, making it look as though they were hired without political consideration, when in fact they were.
Do we want a justice department that is merely a tool of the president ? Right now with Bush's "unitary executive", all parts of the executive are merely for the president's pleasure. Justice is whatever serves the president.
Our country will have lost a great deal if this doctrine of Bush's continues. Revist the Imperial presidency thread.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| dim12trav wrote: | How many lawyers does the Justice department have? We're in real trouble if all they have is 150. But we must also recognize that Regent University Law school has a little better reputation now that it is older than 9 years old.
I've heard that the resumes of these graduates were expunged of any political ties after they were hired, making it look as though they were hired without political consideration, when in fact they were.
Do we want a justice department that is merely a tool of the president ? Right now with Bush's "unitary executive", all parts of the executive are merely for the president's pleasure. Justice is whatever serves the president.
Our country will have lost a great deal if this doctrine of Bush's continues. Revist the Imperial presidency thread. |
This administration has done a lot to undermine the checks and balances built into the constitution by the Founding Fathers. It's evil and it hurts the country A LOT.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Have you guys ever read the Consitution?
The Justice Dept wikiis a cabinet level position of the Executive Office...Rember Congress writes "bills", the President signs them into Law (or vetoes them - if vetoed, Congress can overturn the veto with a 2/3 vote)
The President is charged to execute those Laws.
The Courts (some elected, some appointed - by the President) are arbiters of the law...
This is only a shock for those that don't pay attention. The Republicans allied themselves with the Christian Right during Clinton's Administration....the fact that this is happening is a shock how?
Personally, I'm not a big fan....I trust the Supreme Court to be the final arbiter (but then Justices are appointed by the President and confirmed by Congress....note the "check and balance  )
Some facts....the DoJ has over 120,000 employees...# of Lawyers? not sure....but against that number, 150 folks kinda pales doesn't it?
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Just read the article....my analysis....Left wing propoganda from the Communist Broadcasting System...
For the record, Clinton fired every single of the lawyers serving in the same posts as Bush fired the 8 under discussion....Did Bush fire them for lack of loyalty? Maybe. He's well known for prizing loyalty over performance....
Did Bush fire them for lack of performance or lack of zeal? Maybe....but they do work for him. If the boss says jump, and you don't ask "How High?", then that's often grounds for firing....
But look at some of the language in this article:
"nonpartisan federal lawyers who make up the backbone of the department " Really? What's the evidence that they're nonpartisan? Who made that determination? Using what criteria?
"have been squeezed out or otherwise marginalized over the past few years by ideological (and in many cases underachieving and intellectually weak) attorneys" Whose opinion is that? The one's passed over? The writer? I have no way of knowing....
"the good guys are starting to make waves" Good guys? by whose definition?
"Paulose has also gained attention for her aggressive efforts to obtain 'righteous sentences' in child pornography cases." Anyone have a problem with strict punishment for child pornographers? Some one seems to.....Anyone need to be reminded that a recent prominent ACLU lawyer was recently indicted for child porn?
It's demonstrative of the anti-Christian angle of 99% of the Main Stream Media...and I'm an atheist!
The author, Cohen, also wrote this fluff piece bemoaning the poor victim John Walker Lindh the "so-called American Taliban"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/06/opinion/courtwatch/main2655807.shtml
first rule of fact finding..consider the source
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"Review for Doubting Christians"
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
first rule of fact finding..consider the source |
Actually, I got this information from many other sources; but I wanted to cite something and that was the first one that popped up when I Googled for something along the lines "justice department" +"regent university".
If you want corroboration, go and Google it yourself. You'll find literally DOZENS of similar stories.
For example,
http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/04/08/scandal_puts_spotlight_on_christian_law_school/
Or go look up Regent University in Wikipedia.
So no, this is not a partisan attack on the Bush administration. These criticisms are legitimate and based on facts, the most important ones being,
1. Regent University is literally a fourth rate (or "fourth tier") university and its graduates are the laughing stock of the academic world. Over the decades, their lawyers have had a very high failure rate in their bar exams.
2. The Bush administration hired disproportionately many Regent graduates, which can mean only one thing: they're hiring them because of their Christian values rather than their top legal skills, because there's no way Regent has produced that many top lawyers.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Personally, I'm not a big fan....I trust the Supreme Court to be the final arbiter (but then Justices are appointed by the President and confirmed by Congress....note the "check and balance ) |
What checks and balances? The congress at the time of Bush's latest appointment was Republican controlled and ideologically IDENTICAL to the Executive...
When I talk about the erosion of checks and balances, that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about: Republicans controlling two branches of the government and then using their power to take over the third.
The Founding Fathers must be rolling over in their graves!
In any case, we're drifting off topic... I'm not trying to make a point about the separation of powers here... I'm talking about how the Bush administration puts unqualified clowns into power who are chosen for their (bad) ideology rather than their skills, and then you have serious problems.
For example, Bush put Bremmer in control of Iraq rather than an expert, and we know how well that turned out. Bush put Brown in charge of FEMA, and we know how well that turned out.
Another good example: Bush gutted the EPA in order to try to make it possible for corporations to pollute as much as possible. Here is what Wikipedia says about that:
| Quote: | In June 2005, a memo revealed Philip Cooney, former chief of staff for the White House Council on Environmental Quality, and former lobbyist for the American Petroleum Institute, had personally edited climate change documents before their release.[10]
Cooney resigned two days after the memo was published in the New York Times. Cooney said he had been planning to resign for over two years, implying the timing of his resignation was just a coincidence. Specifically, he said he had planned to resign to "spend time with his family."[11] One week after resigning he took a job at Exxon Mobil in their public affairs department. [12] |
And lately the EPA had to be FORCED to regulate CO2 emissions because Bush's cronies which he put in charge didn't want to!
And now we learn that he's also been gutting the justice department...
How can it POSSIBLY be good to pretend it's opposite day and put exactly the wrong people into positions of power all over the government???
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
What checks and balances? |
the one outlined in the, you know...Constitution?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
The congress at the time of Bush's latest appointment was Republican controlled and ideologically IDENTICAL to the Executive... |
and your point is? Look...that's how the process works.
They're called elections. The ultimate check and balance is the American public..and if they choose to exercise thier priviledge of voting...they could (over the course of 8 years)
- Elect a President to 2 terms
- Elect members of President's party to every seat in Congress
- (if all 9 Justices died) Replace all 9 Supreme Court Justices with members loyal to their party (nominated by Prez, confirmed by Senate)
- Appoint Ambassaders to every country in the world from the Prez's party
- Fire every federal prosecutor and judge (those appointed by the Prez) and replace them...
That "could" happen...and it would be the "will of the people"...that doesn't tend to happen...instinctively, the body politic tends to attempt to balance the power between the Executive and Legislature....rarely will the American public "allow" and overwhelming majority of 1 party in the White House, House, and Senate to last more than 1 election cycle (2 years)....when the public is really frustrated (collectively), they tend to slow the process down by getting close to a 50/50 split in Congress (Like now?)...at least over the last 50 years or so
| P1234567890 wrote: |
When I talk about the erosion of checks and balances, that's EXACTLY what I'm talking about: Republicans controlling two branches of the government and then using their power to take over the third. |
First, that's horsehockey...second, you only object because it's the Republicans...the Dhimms tried the same thing under Clinton 
| P1234567890 wrote: |
The Founding Fathers must be rolling over in their graves! |
I agree, but probably for different reasons 
| P1234567890 wrote: |
In any case, we're drifting off topic... |
shocker! and this would be abnormal how? 
| P1234567890 wrote: |
I'm not trying to make a point about the separation of powers here... I'm talking about how the Bush administration puts unqualified clowns into power who are chosen for their (bad) ideology rather than their skills, and then you have serious problems. |
but you're using an argument based on the separation of powers to add credence to your opinion
| P1234567890 wrote: |
For example, Bush put Bremmer in control of Iraq rather than an expert, and we know how well that turned out. Bush put Brown in charge of FEMA, and we know how well that turned out. |
agree on both counts...and Californians routinely elect Feinstein and Pelosi...fortunately, making bad choices aren't criminal in and of themselves ;0
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Another good example: Bush gutted the EPA in order to try to make it possible for corporations to pollute as much as possible. Here is what Wikipedia says about that: |
You probably don't want to go down the "former lobbyist" line....that's a dark alley where no one is "clean"...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
And lately the EPA had to be FORCED to regulate CO2 emissions because Bush's cronies which he put in charge didn't want to! |
2 points...
1) then the "checks and balances" work
2) CO2 isn't "pollution"
| P1234567890 wrote: |
And now we learn that he's also been gutting the justice department... |
/sigh...150/122000 = .1% not exactly my definition of "gutting"...heck, that's not even decimating...it's decimal-ating
| P1234567890 wrote: |
How can it POSSIBLY be good to pretend it's opposite day and put exactly the wrong people into positions of power all over the government??? |
Welcome to planet Earth You know those really smart people you run into? and you know all those really dumb people you run into? They both get elected sometimes
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"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
- Elect a President to 2 terms
- Elect members of President's party to every seat in Congress
- (if all 9 Justices died) Replace all 9 Supreme Court Justices with members loyal to their party (nominated by Prez, confirmed by Senate)
- Appoint Ambassaders to every country in the world from the Prez's party
- Fire every federal prosecutor and judge (those appointed by the Prez) and replace them...
That "could" happen...and it would be the "will of the people"
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And the Founding Fathers designed the constitution SPECIFICALLY to avoid this scenario in which there is a concentration of power!
| Pondering wrote: |
First, that's horsehockey...second, you only object because it's the Republicans...the Dhimms tried the same thing under Clinton
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The only reason Clinton was screwed so badly was because the Republicans had control of the House and Senate at the time! The separation of powers under Clinton was much healthier than it was under Bush.
| Pondering wrote: |
but you're using an argument based on the separation of powers to add credence to your opinion
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Well, it's relevant!
| Pondering wrote: |
agree on both counts...and Californians routinely elect Feinstein and Pelosi...fortunately, making bad choices aren't criminal in and of themselves ;0
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Sure, negligence and dereliction of duty most certainly can be criminal!
For example, when half of the Democrats in power jumped on the Iraq War bandwagon rather than carrying out their constitutional obligation to act as a check against presidential craziness, they were DEFINITELY in dereliction of their duties!
| Pondering wrote: |
You probably don't want to go down the "former lobbyist" line....that's a dark alley where no one is "clean"...
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That's PRECISELY why I want to go there! That's all the more reason to criticize it; it would be FANTASTIC if someone could put a spotlight on the problem of lobbying and its inherent conflict of interests enough to outrage the American people!
| Pondering wrote: |
/sigh...150/122000 = .1% not exactly my definition of "gutting"...heck, that's not even decimating...it's decimal-ating
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The justice department has a hierarchical structure... They weren't hiring Regent graduates as janitors...
| Pondering wrote: |
Welcome to planet Earth You know those really smart people you run into? and you know all those really dumb people you run into? They both get elected sometimes |
Well, you're half right...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
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(Revisit of the Imperial presidency thread.)
Lately the president has attempted to take over congress and write law for them and has the presumption of accusing them of taking money away from the troops when it is his vetoes which have done that task. Bush could just make one his "signing statements" claiming that the law wasn't right and he was not going to follow it.
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
And the Founding Fathers designed the constitution SPECIFICALLY to avoid this scenario in which there is a concentration of power! |
no that's not true....note I said this "could" happen...The Founding Fathers did a great job crafting a workable government with overlapping layers of checks and balances...
the scenario I proposed is a "worst case" situation...but it "could"...unlikely due to the "appointed for life" provision for judges and the overlapping terms of Congressmen...that second part sorta requires the American public to pay attention at least for 30 seconds every 2 years....
I think where we get in trouble is when Presidents (and Congress) attempt to work OUTSIDE the Constitution. Has Bush done this? yes. Have other Presidents? yes.
Has Congress...most recently, definatley yes. First, they refuse to use thier War Declaration Power allowing most 20th warfare to be fought under Police Action status, then bemoan they don't have enough say in how things are going!
Second, they won't put their bills where there mantra is...Don't support the war? Don't fund it. Poof...war over. But they don't have the courage of their convictions, because 90% of them...don't have any CONVICTIONS (accept for the "go to jail" type )
| Pondering wrote: |
The separation of powers under Clinton was much healthier than it was under Bush. |
Or in other words, the Republican held Congress did a much better job of constraining Executive power growth than the Dhims have done with Bush?
| Pondering wrote: |
Sure, negligence and dereliction of duty most certainly can be criminal! |
Congress has the power to start impeachment hearings. They lack the courage of their conviction to do it...why? Because they know that can't win that game, but they can tear him apart with the support of a complicit media...
| Pondering wrote: |
it would be FANTASTIC if someone could put a spotlight on the problem of lobbying and its inherent conflict of interests enough to outrage the American people! |
I think most folks either don't know, don't care or belong to a PAC (i.e. union) that they feel represents "their" interests....
| Pondering wrote: |
The justice department has a hierarchical structure... They weren't hiring Regent graduates as janitors... |
true...but it still isn't "gutting"
At risk of a tangent, just because you go to a 4th tier school doesn't mean you're a bad lawyer....and just because you go to Harvard doesn't make you brilliant. There are many variables that go into school selection...I see (and concede) the point your making, but there's danger in that line of thinking....
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"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| dim12trav wrote: | (Revisit of the Imperial presidency thread.)
Lately the president has attempted to take over congress and write law for them and has the presumption of accusing them of taking money away from the troops when it is his vetoes which have done that task. Bush could just make one his "signing statements" claiming that the law wasn't right and he was not going to follow it. |
Dim... were you high when you wrote this? 
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
no that's not true....note I said this "could" happen...The Founding Fathers did a great job crafting a workable government with overlapping layers of checks and balances...
the scenario I proposed is a "worst case" situation...but it "could"...unlikely due to the "appointed for life" provision for judges and the overlapping terms of Congressmen...that second part sorta requires the American public to pay attention at least for 30 seconds every 2 years....
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Yes, as you point out, it is extremely unlikely, and this is by DESIGN. The Founding Fathers purposefully tried to make it unlikely!
| Pondering wrote: |
| P123... wrote: |
The separation of powers under Clinton was much healthier than it was under Bush. |
Or in other words, the Republican held Congress did a much better job of constraining Executive power growth than the Dhims have done with Bush?
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No, the Republican-held Congress did a much better job of constraining Clinton than the Republican-held congress did of constraining Bush.
The new Democratic-held congress is doing a MUCH better job at being a pain in Bush's butt than its Republican-held predecessor, and regardless of whether or not you agree or disagree with the stupid Democrats in power right now, they are at least sort of doing their constitutionally-obligated duty of checking the power of the Executive.
Can you name JUST ONE instance of when the previous Republican Congress went against the President? The dude literally never had to use his veto even once in the past 6 years!!! That says A LOT!
| Pondering wrote: |
true...but it still isn't "gutting"
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We don't have all of the facts... Were the Regent grads put into all of the main positions of power? I've got no idea, because of course the idiot reporters never give use the *most important* facts such as this.
In the worst case, it's a gutting, and in the best case it's Bush hiring his cronies despite their lack of qualifications (again). In either case I've got a legitimate complaint!
| Pondering wrote: |
At risk of a tangent, just because you go to a 4th tier school doesn't mean you're a bad lawyer....and just because you go to Harvard doesn't make you brilliant. There are many variables that go into school selection...I see (and concede) the point your making, but there's danger in that line of thinking.... |
I agree, but Regent is a fourth-tier university for a reason. You can convince me that 1 or 2 of their graduates are brilliant, but there's NO WAY that 150 of them are all super-talented lawyers. They were clearly hired for their Christian ideology and not for their legal skills.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
I agree, but Regent is a fourth-tier university for a reason. You can convince me that 1 or 2 of their graduates are brilliant, but there's NO WAY that 150 of them are all super-talented lawyers. They were clearly hired for their Christian ideology and not for their legal skills. |
fair one...and there has been other indications that loyalty and "fielty" have been unduly used in hiring practices...I don't think that's a direct Bush thing....I think that's the influence of the Christian Right in the Republican party, but it's more than anecdotal....
For the record, I'm a big Jeffersonian meritocracy guy
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Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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Is it Bush who is using the Christian right or vice versa? Until Bush came along the Christian right was mostly unpolitical. Bush has painted himself as "one of them" with little credible evidence. They took the bait and ran with it hoping that it was true.
There have been very few "bones" the Christian right has received since his election, and that is why they are beginning to separate themselves slowly from his coattails. The supreme court maybe the biggest bone they now seem to own though, its only 5-4 with little chance of gaining ground there at all. At least Alito and Roberts were otherwise qualified and accepted by the bar.
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