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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: Interesting Case |
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Here is an interesting one:
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=3dcb13fd-63d1-4648-a99e-dc9ec8200b15
This Khadr guy was only 15 when he was fighting against the U.S. in Afghanistan...
Is it ok to charge a teenager with war crimes???
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Interesting Case |
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yep...he wasn't acting like a child when he attended training and threw the grenade...is it sad? sure. Tragic? maybe.
A testament to the evils our enemies will stoop to to commit murder? absolutely.
Should we excuse his actions? Absolutely not.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Interesting Case |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Should we excuse his actions? Absolutely not. |
But he was just a kid... There's some potential for rehabilitation there.
Is it ever ok to execute a teenager?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting Case |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
But he was just a kid... |
according to you....if he were Jewish, he would have become a "man" at 13...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
There's some potential for rehabilitation there. |
for what good and at what price?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Is it ever ok to execute a teenager? |
yep....he deliberately undertook actions which intentionally led to a fellow human's death. That's willful action, not an accident...and he personally is accountable for actions...others are guilty for their part in this...but, unless you want a Muslim version of a Children's crusade...then yep...treat him according to his deeds.
Look, the article states that his father was financier for Al-Queda...the kid grew up idoctrinated into an ideology that glorifies death and wraps it in the blanket of "religious purity"...
Is it sad? Yes...but I'm not generally a supporter of "the need of the one" outweighing the "good of the many"...
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/PalestinianChildAbuse/
good slide show of what the Kult of Death is teaching its youth...
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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At what point do we accuse one of being a combatant versus being a murderer? How about a trial for the friendly fire of Pat Tillman? Trials are such messy things and for every combatant it would take far longer than the war itself. (I hope at least)
We dont put to trial the soldiers in War when they the fight even if they killed soldiers with their weapons. The combatants we are fighting now just dont have uniforms, so what, does that make them less than combatants? 15 is an age when it is certainly possible to understand that another country is occupying their country.
While I think he is probably culpable, he must be considered a combatant and therefore a prisoner of war until the fight is over.
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Studies support the ideal that teens lack mental maturity and are subject to impulsive behavior, but there has to be some accountability.
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For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting Case |
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| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Is it ever ok to execute a teenager? |
yep....he deliberately undertook actions which intentionally led to a fellow human's death. That's willful action, not an accident...and he personally is accountable for actions...others are guilty for their part in this...but, unless you want a Muslim version of a Children's crusade...then yep...treat him according to his deeds.
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So where do you draw the line? What if he was 13 years old? What if he was 9 years old when he did it?
At which cutoff point will you refuse to execute him?
And Dim12 has a very good point here... All of this 'enemy combatant' stuff is an obvious end-run around the Geneva Convention.
In this case I don't happen to really care in any moral sense because these are evil fundamentalist Muslims that you're screwing... But I DEFINITELY care in a legal sense and I DEFINITELY care about the implications.
I'm not going to be very happy about it when America invades Canada, I kill a few soldiers defending my home, and then am labeled as an 'enemy combatant' and tried for murder and executed, even though it obviously wasn't murder.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: |
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I doubt the US would invade Canada, y'all have nothing worth invading for...
The only few good things from Canada are already accessible to the US... beer, canadian bacon, hockey, curling.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I doubt the US would invade Canada, y'all have nothing worth invading for...
The only few good things from Canada are already accessible to the US... beer, canadian bacon, hockey, curling. |
Ummm.... Maybe our natural resources (of which we have some of the richest in the world)?
Regardless, that's not really my point. My point is that I wonder how long it'll take before you guys just totally throw away the Geneva Convention.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Ok...so let's follow your line of questions
First Post: "Is it OK to charge a teen with war crimes?"
Second Post: "Is it ever ok to execute a teenager?"
Third Post: "My point is that I wonder how long it'll take before you guys just totally throw away the Geneva Convention."
I thought your point was about "at what age is an individual responsible for their actions"....that's an interesting topic and worth discussion...
I never said execution...I said "accountable for his actions"...that may mean execution, that may be life interment....Anyone that opposes doing either option a or b above, I invite you to volunteer to bring this young man into your home and, by your example, "reform" him....
Lastly, your third point makes about as much sense as telling Americans to get ready for Mexico invading the US "cuz they're stil ticked about that Alamo thing..." 
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"Review for Doubting Christians"
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | Ok...so let's follow your line of questions
First Post: "Is it OK to charge a teen with war crimes?"
Second Post: "Is it ever ok to execute a teenager?"
Third Post: "My point is that I wonder how long it'll take before you guys just totally throw away the Geneva Convention."
I thought your point was about "at what age is an individual responsible for their actions"....that's an interesting topic and worth discussion...
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I'm interested in a topic that is a bit broader. The whole 'enemy combatant' thing is an obvious end-run around the Geneva Convention, and is highly controversial.
Charging enemy soldiers with murder is highly controversial.
Executing teenagers is also highly controversial.
This case just happens to combine all three of these things, which is why it's particularly interesting. So all three of my questions are definitely related and relevant.
| Pondering wrote: |
I never said execution...I said "accountable for his actions"...that may mean execution, that may be life interment....
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What about all of the German POWs captured during WWII. Many of them killed American soldiers, yet none of them were charged with murder and executed or locked away for life.
| Pondering wrote: |
Anyone that opposes doing either option a or b above, I invite you to volunteer to bring this young man into your home and, by your example, "reform" him....
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That's not what we do with POWs. We don't try to reform them. The only reason I brought up the whole reforming thing is because the guy is still a kid.
| Pondering wrote: |
Lastly, your third point makes about as much sense as telling Americans to get ready for Mexico invading the US "cuz they're stil ticked about that Alamo thing..." |
If you're talking about my point about the U.S. invading Canada, I'm obviously being sarcastic; I doubt very much that you guys are going to invade us any time soon. But I was trying to make a point about the Geneva Convention.
If you guys ignore the Geneva Convention, how long do you think it'll be before other countries start capturing your soldiers and charging them with murder, executing them, etc.?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: |
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you're comparing apples and oranges....
WWII, it's not murder if soldiers of one nation kill soldiers of another nation....Partisans were routinely executed under espionage laws...
It is murder if a citizen not serving in an organized, recognized, state-sponsored organization kill anyone...if it's in self-defense, then maybe it's justifiable homicide...
Also in WWII, the senior leadership was held accountable, not for deaths on the battlefield, but deaths (both military and civilian) more maltreatment and murder of "detained" persons...
USLaw
Presidential Order
The Pres order specifically applies to al-Queda and the Taliban...and those two organizations only.
Ok, the Geneva Convention...there are actually 4 main ones, and several others since the first...I guess you're referring to the 3rd, which pertain to Prisoners of War?
Wikiarticle
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"Review for Doubting Christians"
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1390
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Ok...I've done some reading...
you're right...it's an end run around the Geneva Conventions....
Personally, I think what Bush has done is the correct thing to do...but it's time to review the laws...
Most of the Geneva Conventions were a product of WWI and WWII...asymetrical warfare was not the primary form of warfare then....it is now, and since International Treaties become part of US civil law, then we need to address it there....probably time for a review of the Geneva Conventions.
Honestly though, if we turned all those guys out of Guantanamo, what do you think they'd be doing? Including the 16 year old al-Queda trained Canadian?
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2543
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:16 am Post subject: |
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After we invaded Iraq the only people with uniforms quickly vanished and all we had to shoot at were "civilians", does that mean we are subject to the Geneva conventions for deliberately killing civilians?
When faced with someone out of uniform but with military style weapon is that a civilian or not? Can we shoot them or not? Or can we assume they are military?
Unfortunately, even those who wear the uniform of Iraq may not be working for our side in this war, the whole issue of combatants is far from cut and dried. Reminds me of Vietnam but thats another issue.
If we include the issue of spying, how many bribes have we given out for information already in this war, doesn't that make them spies for us? Makes them subject to execution/killing by the enemy doesn't it?
Bush cant have it both ways. Either we are fighting a war against a known enemy with all the "rights" of being our enemy, or we are violating our own ethics by waging war against civilians. Just because our enemy has chosen to wage this war cloaked (primarily without uniforms) doesn't cancel out their status as combatants and prevents the application of the charges of murder.
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My boss is a Jewish carpenter.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | Ok...I've done some reading...
you're right...it's an end run around the Geneva Conventions....
Personally, I think what Bush has done is the correct thing to do...but it's time to review the laws...
Most of the Geneva Conventions were a product of WWI and WWII...asymetrical warfare was not the primary form of warfare then....it is now, and since International Treaties become part of US civil law, then we need to address it there....probably time for a review of the Geneva Conventions.
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Ignoring the Geneva Conventions sets an extremely bad precedent. If you're not worried about more countries starting to ignore them and this becoming a total slippery slope, then you're not thinking about the bigger picture.
You know me; I'm not fan of Muslim terrorists. From a moral standpoint, I couldn't care less if you summarily execute them. But that's not the only issue here. Everyone agrees that even the worst pedophile deserves a fair trial and legal representation during it. The exact same reasoning applies to the Geneva Conventions.
| Pondering wrote: |
It is murder if a citizen not serving in an organized, recognized, state-sponsored organization kill anyone...
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Recognized by whom? There are a whole bunch of governments that the U.S. does not recognize. Does that mean that if the U.S. attacks them, it doesn't have to abide by the Geneva Conventions?
What about Israel? There are literally dozens of countries which don't recognize Israel. What happens when some country at war with Israel captures some of its soldiers, labels them as 'enemy combatants', and then executes them? They'll be able to point to America and say, "It was ok when you guys did it; so we can do it as well."
That is why I argue that the Geneva Conventions must be interpreted broadly.
| Pondering wrote: |
Honestly though, if we turned all those guys out of Guantanamo, what do you think they'd be doing? Including the 16 year old al-Queda trained Canadian? |
They'd be trying to figure out how to get a bomb into one of our subway stations or something like that.
So you obviously can't just let them go. But you also obviously can't hold them indefinitely or charge them with murder because that violates the Geneva Conventions, leading down a nasty slippery slope.
So the solution is to try to fight radical Islam in a totally different way. Why not use the tried, tested, and true strategy of getting others to do the dirty work? Would it really be so hard to get Musharraf to execute all of the radical clerics in Pakistan as well as all of their top lieutenants? The dude is a military dictator with absolute power. He can do anything he wants. With U.S. support, he could do it. Obviously India would also be willing to help.
What's wrong with that plan?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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