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Bismarck
Tadpole
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 22
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 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: CAN Mankind turn to God? (Calvinism vs. Pelagianism) |
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| Quote: | And to Seth, to him also was born a son; and he called his name Enosh. Then people began to call on the name of YHWH.
Genesis 4:26 |
The plain reading of this text indicates that men had no difficulty calling out to YHWH in their distress. (At the time of Genesis 4:26, the world was plunged into the depths of the pre-flood sin of the empire of Cain and his progeny.) This is much like a soldier, in wartime, crying out for God in his foxhole amidst the thunderous din of exploding artillery.
Therefore, it seems that mankind can, if only dimly, sense the sin of this world -- at least when it gets critical in an immediate sense.
| Quote: | The Choice of Life and Death
11"For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 13Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?' 14But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16If you obey the commandments of YHWH your God that I command you today, by loving YHWH your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and YHWH your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 17But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, 20loving YHWH your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that YHWH swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."
Deuteronomy 30 |
This seems quite clear, YHWH-Elohim, in His Mercy and Compassion, "condescended" to set before the Israelites a set of Laws and Commandments that would bring them success in life. IF they chose to do what YHWH told them, THEN they would succeed. IF they chose not to do what YHWH told them, THEN they would fail.
The clear, unambiguous scriptural use of "conditionals" (IF/THEN) clearly indicates that mankind does indeed have a conscious choice to make. That is, mankind "has the power" to choose YHWH-Elohim over satan.
However, where I believe Calvinists, in their austere beliefs, are right is that it is only by the infinite, and unmerited Grace of YHWH-Elohim that mankind is given a ray of hope amidst the dark clouds of sin and wrath. Please consider! Where would mankind be, nay even where would you be, without God's revelation of Scripture to Moses and the Prophets?? Please think it through! IF YHWH-Elohim had with-held His Holy Spirit from Moses and the Prophets to Israel, THEN they would never have even made it out of Egypt, much less thrived and been successful enough to pave the way for the Messiah and Christianity!
It is SIN which leads to slavery and death (Romans 6:16). Because of the SIN, the House of Jacob wound up as slaves in Egypt. Consider, Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery out of jealousy... and the way things work out, although Joseph saves them from starvation and death, all the brothers and their children wind up slaves in Egypt. The sin of jealousy led the whole family into slavery!
Without God's calling Moses in Midian, the Israelites would have become just another slave race, a footnote in Egyptian history books.
But YHWH-Elohim, in a Great and Wondrous Work, "condescended" to come all the forth from Heaven, call Moses to do His bidding, and thereby extract and "medivac" the Israelites out of bondage into the Promised Land. Once out of Egypt, Moses received the 10 Commandments atop Mount Horeb (aka Mount Sinai), and the Torah was written.
And, so long as the Hebrews obeyed those Scriptures, they lived wild and free in the Highlands of the Holy Land. But as soon as they began disobeying those Scriptures, YHWH-Elohim sent prophet after prophet to call them back to His graciously-given Laws. And when the Hebrews eventually rejected even the prophets, as YHWH-Elohim had warned them through Moses in Deuteronomy 30 at the beginning of the whole show, lo-and-behold the Hebrews indeed were conquered and re-enslaved by their enemies. Indeed, the real miracle, and the really obvious miracle if you think about it, is that 12 tribes of "barbarians" managed to hold out for 700 years wedged between the two super-power states of their era, Egypt in the West and Babylon to the East (not to mention the Hittites to the North!).
My point is this: although Mankind does have the power and capacity to read Scripture and choose to obey it, and thereby live in righteousness and freedom... Mankind clearly never had the power to avoid succumbing to satan's seductions. We are all sons of Adam and Eve, and they were duped by satan... we have their genes, "like father like son", and so we too are vulnerable to satan's lurings. Even no less than the House of Jacob wound up enslaved in Egypt!
Clearly, Calvinists are right on when they say that, apart from the Mercy and Grace and Great & Wondrous Works of YHWH-Elohim (such as "condescending" to call Prophet after Prophet and, through them, telling mankind exactly what to do and how to do it to escape bondage), apart from God-breathed Scripture, Mankind would be so ignorant and blind to satan's plots and schemes that we would all be slaves and the world would already be a complete and utter hell-hole.
In a word, satan is smarter than mankind. Satan is smarter than you, me, and all mankind, and left to our own devices, we would all already be slaves in a hell-hole world. However, infinitely Graciously, God has "condescended" to simplify things down to our moronic level. I know it's harsh, but that is the claim. YHWH-Elohim, seeing all of mankind threatened by satanic seduction, has Graciously told us all, through His prophets, "do this, do that, don't do the other, just trust me, it's too complicated to explain, just trust me". (Those are my words, may God forgive my impudence, I'm trying to explain.)
Lo-and-behold, again and again and again, when mortal men (like Israel early on, or the Protestant Puritans early on) choose to admit their own stupidity, their own fallibility, their own vulnerability to satan's twisted charms, and they say, "Uhhmmm, well, ok, I'm a moron in the grand scheme of things, I admit it, I'm just going to go for broke and do what YHWH-Elohim tells me, when He tells me, how He tells", then those people succeed and create great nations like Israel and America.
And, likewise, time and again, when men stray from YHWH-Elohim's "simplified, dumbed down to our level" instructions on how to avoid satan's traps, then their once-great nations falter and fall, again like Israel in 586 BCE and America in 20?? CE...
In short, what I'm trying to say is, mankind has proven, time and again, that he is too stupid to compete against satan in a battle of wits. Time and again, satan outsmarts us, and lures us into bondage. As it is written,
| Quote: | Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that YHWH God had made.
Genesis 3:1 |
Because of our stupidity, we have all become, through our sins, satan's "beasts" who work his fields in bondage (the metaphor made sense 3000 years ago in the Middle East, when and where the Scripture was revealed, when slaves were forced to be agricultural workers on plantations).
But, thank God (!), YHWH-Elohim has given us, with Scripture, a simplified "7 step program to escape sin, for dummies".
And without that infinitely wondrous and gracious work of YHWH-Elohim, we would all be bereft of that "7 step program...for dummies"...
and we would all be thralls toiling away in utter abject hopeless tyranny.
So, in that sense, Calvinists are right. All praise and all laudings be unto YHWH-Elohim, whose boundless Grace has "spoken right down to earth, in a language that everyone here can easily understand", what to do, and what not to do, so as to avoid satan's web of lies, trickery, and deceit.
In short, it all boils down to Proverbs 14:12:
| Quote: | There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the ways unto death. |
and Matthew 7:13-14:
| Quote: | | 13"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. |
YHWH-Elohim's wonder of wonder, His God-breathed Scriptures, are like a neon-sign pointing the way to the narrow gate on to Life, and away from the broad gate on to Death... and without YHWH-Elohim's aforesaid wonder of wonders, without Scripture, Mankind would be almost hopelessly lost.
So, Mankind can choose to read and obey Scripture, once YHWH-Elohim gives it to him... but Mankind could never have written those Scriptures himself. Have I been clear (enough)?
Afterwrit:
Somewhat relatedly, just sharing, concerning the verse:
| Quote: | I am YHWH your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
Exodus 20:2 |
Martin Luther wrote, "this is purest gospel". YHWH-Elohim "reached down" from Heaven and medivac'd the Israelites out of bondage and into freedom. This is the "purest gospel", the clearest way of illustrating the power of YHWH-Elohim and the great goal of freedom and peace that is His Wish and Will for Mankind.
God help this world and all mankind and all creation. Amen. ::sign of cross:: |
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Bismarck
Tadpole
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 22
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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What I'm trying to say at the end, about how Mankind can choose to read and heed Scripture, but cannot produce scripture (ie, figure out how to defeat satan on their own), is much like some famous Surah from the Holy Koran:
| Quote: | If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.
Surah 2:23
If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
Surah 10:38
If they say, "He fabricated (the Quran)," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
Surah 11:13 |
This challenge, in the Holy Koran, to equal the Wisdom of Allah YHWH-Elohim on your own, by producing your own Wisdom writings, all by your self, without any Divine Revelation through the Holy Spirit of God, that is the essence of what I'm trying to say.
Mankind is possessed of enough mental capacity and moral willpower to read and heed Scripture if they so choose...
but Mankind has demonstrated repeatedly that he does not possess the capacity to invent Scriptures, to come up with the Wisdom necessary to defeat satan's web of sin on his own.
Thank God for God-breathed Scripture, without which we would be bereft of our moral compass! Amen. ::sign of cross:: |
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JimD
German Shepherd
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: Predestination |
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| Bismarck wrote: | What I'm trying to say at the end, about how Mankind can choose to read and heed Scripture, but cannot produce scripture (ie, figure out how to defeat satan on their own), is much like some famous Surah from the Holy Koran:
| Quote: | If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.
Surah 2:23
If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
Surah 10:38
If they say, "He fabricated (the Quran)," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."
Surah 11:13 |
This challenge, in the Holy Koran, to equal the Wisdom of Allah YHWH-Elohim on your own, by producing your own Wisdom writings, all by your self, without any Divine Revelation through the Holy Spirit of God, that is the essence of what I'm trying to say.
Mankind is possessed of enough mental capacity and moral willpower to read and heed Scripture if they so choose...
but Mankind has demonstrated repeatedly that he does not possess the capacity to invent Scriptures, to come up with the Wisdom necessary to defeat satan's web of sin on his own.
Thank God for God-breathed Scripture, without which we would be bereft of our moral compass! Amen. ::sign of cross:: |
From the human side of the salvation issue, I believe it is faith alone in Christ that results in the salvation of the lost (Eph. 2:8-9). In effect, Calvinists have confused the biblical truth that God requires a lost person to believe in Jesus Christ (as a condition of salvation) in order for him or her to be saved by God with the unbiblical error that a person can or does make a contribution to his or her salvation and thereby becomes a cosavior with God. It would seem that to avoid the latter error, Calvinists have needlessly denied the former truth. Just because the candidate for salvation has some presalvation responsibility (i.e., to believe in Jesus Christ), does not make him or her even partially a Savior. God even provides our faith, we refer to it as our faith but it really isn’t, but He does not force us to accept it, that choice is the only part we play in the beginning of our salvation. We choose to believe, choose to repent, choose to confess, choose to be baptized, etc. To say that we are so dead we cannot even make a choice is absurd I think.
ROMANS Chapter 9:
In choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God both chose and rejected with exclusive reference to time, and with no reference to eternity. As to the final destiny of the children, the choice
and rejection had no known effect upon it. It left each as free to pursue those things which would save him, and to shun those that would condemn him, as though it had never been made. Had each changed place with the other, it would not, in the slightest degree, have altered his prospects for heaven. What men wilfully do, not the divine choice, determines their final doom. God's choice, it is true, rendered the outward, temporal circumstances of Jacob and his posterity far superior to those of Esau and his; but, at the same time, it so increased responsibility as to leave the balances of justice level, and the chances of salvation equal.
The passage in hand has had assigned to it a very notorious violation of good taste in theories of election, and, in my judgment, has been greatly abused. It was not penned in the interest of dogmatic Calvinism, and therefore does not offer approval of this offensive doctrine. Interpreted as it should be, it teaches nothing contradictory of other portions of holy scripture, and shocking to our human sense of justice. In it God stands out still in a lovely light, and not as the arbitrary, inexorable Judge, who appoints one man to heaven and another to hell, not only without reason, but in defiance of it, so far as man can see.
12. The elder shall serve the younger. We have no account of Esau ever having personally served Jacob. The reference then must be to their respective posterities; and with this agree the facts of history. For in 2 Sam. viii: 14 it is distinctly said that "all they of Edom [Esau's posterity] became David's servants." Indeed, the Edomites were long subject to the kings of Israel, the latter often slaying them in great numbers. But
the Edomites frequently asserted their independence; and at such times they became most barbarous and cruel. About the time Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus, they seem to have
disappeared as a separate people. After this we hear no more of them.
13. As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau. This quotation is from Mal. i: 2, 3- The extent to which God
loved Jacob was shown in preferring him to his brother; and the extent to which be bated Esau, in rejecting him from being one of the heads of his chosen people. More than this, the words need not be supposed to mean hatred, especially, we may assume to be used in the bold exaggerating sense so common with the prophets. It denotes not so much positive hatred, as not love.
Is it not unjust in God to choose one and reject another, as in the case of Jacob and Esau? Not at all; for in doing so, he acts according to his own avowed principles of conduct, which must be assumed to be right. Accordingly he says to Moses, I will make my own sense of right my rule in showing mercy. It was on this principle that he set up Pharaoh to be king. But all these choices create mere worldly distinctions. They are not choices to eternal life. But If God makes men what he pleases, why does he still find fault with them? He does not do so. He finds no fault with them for being what he makes them, but only for their own voluntary wrong. Again, in these choices, God's creatures should not presume to question him. They must take for granted that he acts justly. He has the absolute right to do what he does. and as he can do none wrong, he must not be questioned. What do you think? Jim D |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 4897
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What do you think? Jim D |
Jim I hope he's here to answer you , his post was in April. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3148
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Jim wrote: | 13. As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau. This quotation is from Mal. i: 2, 3- The extent to which God
loved Jacob was shown in preferring him to his brother; and the extent to which be bated Esau, in rejecting him from being one of the heads of his chosen people. More than this, the words need not be supposed to mean hatred, especially, we may assume to be used in the bold exaggerating sense so common with the prophets. It denotes not so much positive hatred, as not love. |
We must be having ESP. I was just stepping into the bath tonight when the correct interpretation regarding Jacob and Esau hit me like a thunderbolt.
Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
This is all about the principle of election.
Consider these two statements;
1. I have loved Jacob and therefore elected him and I have hated Esau and therefore not elected him.
2. I have elected Jacob and therefore loved him and I have not elected Esau and therefore hated him.
Do you see the difference? 1 implies that God's love or hate depended on Jacob and Esau's works, but 2 implies that their works proceeded simply **because** of God's election or non-election.
this also explains the scripture concerning hating your father and mother etc; it simply means one must choose Christ and does not mean an active hating.
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JimD
German Shepherd
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject: Happy |
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| MoJo wrote: | | Jim wrote: | 13. As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau. This quotation is from Mal. i: 2, 3- The extent to which God
loved Jacob was shown in preferring him to his brother; and the extent to which be bated Esau, in rejecting him from being one of the heads of his chosen people. More than this, the words need not be supposed to mean hatred, especially, we may assume to be used in the bold exaggerating sense so common with the prophets. It denotes not so much positive hatred, as not love. |
We must be having ESP. I was just stepping into the bath tonight when the correct interpretation regarding Jacob and Esau hit me like a thunderbolt.
Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
This is all about the principle of election.
Consider these two statements;
1. I have loved Jacob and therefore elected him and I have hated Esau and therefore not elected him.
2. I have elected Jacob and therefore loved him and I have not elected Esau and therefore hated him.
Do you see the difference? 1 implies that God's love or hate depended on Jacob and Esau's works, but 2 implies that their works proceeded simply **because** of God's election or non-election.
this also explains the scripture concerning hating your father and mother etc; it simply means one must choose Christ and does not mean an active hating.
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Wow, I think i have found a bible discussion home. I was just yesterday booted off the highway discussion board for persisting in this and similar type post. Not that i expect to be agreed with all the time but at least allowed to express my opinions the best i can. God Bless and thank you very much. |
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JimD
German Shepherd
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Happy |
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| Jim Deniston wrote: | | MoJo wrote: | | Jim wrote: | 13. As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau. This quotation is from Mal. i: 2, 3- The extent to which God
loved Jacob was shown in preferring him to his brother; and the extent to which be bated Esau, in rejecting him from being one of the heads of his chosen people. More than this, the words need not be supposed to mean hatred, especially, we may assume to be used in the bold exaggerating sense so common with the prophets. It denotes not so much positive hatred, as not love. |
We must be having ESP. I was just stepping into the bath tonight when the correct interpretation regarding Jacob and Esau hit me like a thunderbolt.
Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
This is all about the principle of election.
Consider these two statements;
1. I have loved Jacob and therefore elected him and I have hated Esau and therefore not elected him.
2. I have elected Jacob and therefore loved him and I have not elected Esau and therefore hated him.
Do you see the difference? 1 implies that God's love or hate depended on Jacob and Esau's works, but 2 implies that their works proceeded simply **because** of God's election or non-election.
this also explains the scripture concerning hating your father and mother etc; it simply means one must choose Christ and does not mean an active hating.
|
Wow, I think i have found a bible discussion home. I was just yesterday booted off the highway discussion board for persisting in this and similar type post. Not that i expect to be agreed with all the time but at least allowed to express my opinions the best i can. God Bless and thank you very much. |
And to reply to the above, Yes! and Right on! you have got it! |
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JimD
German Shepherd
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: Post |
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| Nobby wrote: | | Quote: | | What do you think? Jim D |
Jim I hope he's here to answer you , his post was in April. |
Bear with me please, i am new at this.I do'nt even know how to do a quote and not have to repost the complete post, could somebody explain? Thanks  |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3148
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jim. All you have to do is highlight the part of the quote you want. You don't have to highlight the whole quote.
If this isn't clear, let me know and I'll explain how to do it.
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JimD
German Shepherd
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 348
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: Quote |
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| MoJo wrote: | Hi Jim. All you have to do is highlight the part of the quote you want. You don't have to highlight the whole quote.
If this isn't clear, let me know and I'll explain how to do it.
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Hello MoJo, I am not having any success at submitting a quote, please help! Thank you |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3148
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Hi Jim. I'll use this for an example;
MoJo wrote:
Hi Jim. All you have to do is highlight the part of the quote you want. You don't have to highlight the whole quote.
Hello MoJo, I am not having any success at submitting a quote, please help! Thank you
When you are in the reply page, scroll down to the post you want to quote and place your curser at the beginnining of the word you want to start with. Left click your mouse and drag it to the word you want to end with, then release. The part you have scrolled over will be darkened. Right click on any part of the darkened part and left click copy.
Go back up to the reply part and left click where you want to start the quote. Right click for the menu to come up and left click paste.
Now, while still in the reply box, highlight the same section you have chosen again by left clicking on it. go to the top of the reply box and left click on the word quote.
This will come up;
| Quote: | | Hi Jim. All you have to do is highlight the part of the quote you want. You don't have to highlight the whole quote. |
Now you need to put the name of the person you are quoting into this.
Where it says quote, do this quote="jim". I'll leave the brackets out so they don't screw up the demo, but the brackets stay in and the word quote is already there, you don't have to type it again; just go = "Jim" with no spaces in between.
sample
| MoJo wrote: | | If this isn't clear, let me know and I'll explain how to do it. |
| MoJo wrote: | | If this isn't clear |
| Mojo wrote: | | If this isn't |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Mo,
I didn't know how to do the name thing.. 
learning something new everyday.. |
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