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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7639
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like saber rattling to me... What's the chance that the British soldiers were actually in Iranian waters at the time?
Would they make a mistake like that?
Or did the Iranians come over into Iraqi waters and abduct them?
It's not the first time they've taken Western hostages, after all...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1394
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Sounds like saber rattling to me... What's the chance that the British soldiers were actually in Iranian waters at the time? |
Zero...Brits released the ships GPS data plots...they're inside Iraqi waters...close to the line by about 2 nautical miles...but clearly in Iraqi waters
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Would they make a mistake like that? |
Please clarify your pronouns...who is the "they" to whom you refer?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Or did the Iranians come over into Iraqi waters and abduct them? |
Looks like it...adds to prestige, snub the Brits (who they see as weak since they just announced a pull-out from Basra), and gives them bodies to trade for the Iranians seized by the US inside Iraq....
| P1234567890 wrote: |
It's not the first time they've taken Western hostages, after all... |
and it won't be the last we don't smack them back into their holes...
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7639
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Would they make a mistake like that? |
Please clarify your pronouns...who is the "they" to whom you refer? |
The Brits... It is my lay opinion that the British wouldn't make a mistake like this.
As far as I can tell, this is an act of war against Britain. Remember, the last war between Israel and Lebanon was sparked when Lebanon abducted a couple of Israeli soldiers (or maybe just one, I can't remember now).
In any case, the Iranians are playing with fire. They wouldn't stand a chance against an 'Allied' attack. If it came down to occupation, then they'd stand a chance, but America would have instant air superiority over the country and could destroy its targets at will. Amadinejad isn't just stupid... He also seems to be suicidal!
And the Iranian people are going to pay for it...
Pondering, I can't remember, you're in the Navy, right?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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This all sounds like a classic case of kidnapping to me... for the purpose of distracting world attention away from the fact these folks are enriching uranium to make a nuclear device to... um... ahhhh... generate electricity. 
Also, didn't Hezzbollah (which is financed, equipped, trained, and supported by Iran) do the same thing as a provocation to get the Israeli's to react the way they did? After 40 some odd days they were able to get enough sympathy from the world to get leave the Israeli's with a black eye in world opinion for being to aggressive. Well, here, if we go in there an drop a bunch of bombs on them for this... all the while they are buying time to develop their 'peaceful nuclear program'... and then, when it comes time to drop the hammer on their behinds for the nuclear deal... the world will have lost their taste for punishing them.
I actually think it was a brilliant political move. However, the realist in me says this is nothing more than a case of state sponsored kidnapping.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7639
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think Amadinejad really understands that he's got his country on the road to destruction...
One way or the other, he's not going to get nuclear weapons...
Incidentally, his scientists (much like Saddam's) are idiots. They can't solve the technical problems that Oppenheimer solved at Los Alamos in 1945. That's why they have to build uranium gun weapons rather than the considerably cheaper plutonium implosion devices.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1394
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: |
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IMO, It's not really President Iminadinnerjacket or whatever his name is...it's Khameni and the other "mad mullahs" that are still the source of real power...
It is about rubbing the West's nose in it and making themselves look big in front of their own people (who are generally secular [urban populations] but fearful of the religious police]...
It's also a big distractor from the whole nuke thing...and I hope you're right that they can't figure out the math, but they've got enough oil cash (and the price per barrel goes up with the crisis donch-ya-know) to buy smart folks that can do the math....
Who was shocked that they renigged on the offer to release the female sailor? anyone? anyone? Buehler? Buehler?....and don't you like that she's wearing a headscarf and burqa now? Note the men are still in uniform...she is not.
Iran wants Britain to apologize for something they didn't do...that's all about ego and shame...it's just one more knick in a death by a thousand cuts....
I'm telling you...this thing in the Mideast is gonna be ugly...the price will be higher than anything the world has seen since 1945...but everyday we delay, the price goes up.
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7639
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | IMO, It's not really President Iminadinnerjacket or whatever his name is...it's Khameni and the other "mad mullahs" that are still the source of real power...
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I fully agree, but we should also UNDERSTAND the situation. Crazy Shi'ite clerics are very different from crazy Sunni clerics. If there's one mistake that American foreign policy keeps making again, and again, and again, it's not understanding the enemy. It would be a HUGE mistake to treat them as we would treat Sunnis or assume that they are the same. They're not. I get the impression that there isn't a single person in the House, Senate, Executive Branch, CIA, FBI, NSA, or U.S. Military who can explain the difference between Shi'ites and Sunnis.
Shi'ites are CONSIDERABLY more rational than Sunnis. For example, in Iranian schools, they even teach evolution. Despite the fact that the upper echelons of power in Iran are all crazy fundamentalists, the Iranian population is largely secular, well-educated, and has a strong respect for science. This is one of the reasons why Iran seems to be making such great leaps forward in weapons technology.
| Pondering wrote: |
I'm telling you...this thing in the Mideast is gonna be ugly...the price will be higher than anything the world has seen since 1945...but everyday we delay, the price goes up. |
Sure, but we literally have the power to destroy every single Muslim city on the planet if we really have to.
Like I said, one way or another, Amadinejad isn't getting nuclear weapons. There's just no way that we (or the Israelis, for that matter) are going to allow it.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1394
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Understand you're point regarding Sunni/Shia...and there are fringes in both groups...but though you and I both used the word secular, it actually inappropriate as saying secular Muslim is analogous to partly pregnant.
Shia Muslims tend to be more strict interpreters of the Koran and "traditional" in their....well, traditions.
Sunni societies are generally more "modern" in thier traditions...
Compare southern Lebanon (Shia) from the rest of Lebanon...compare Jordan (Sunni) and Saudi Arabia (I know...Saudies are Wahabi), Syria (Shia-Sunni mix population)
Regardless the socio-political-legal construct of Islam pervades every aspect of the culture and so it's impossible to have a secular Muslim society....you could have a secular Arab society, but it'd be tough to do.
I'm not sure where you're going with "US Leadership" not understanding Muslim culture...lots of folks do understand it, but agree that many don't....In fact, Americans are universally "bad" about taking themselves as the "norm" and assuming everyone else is "like them". I think that's because we have a fairly homogenous population, national TV culture and don't tend to travel abroad despite a high standard of living....
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7639
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | Understand you're point regarding Sunni/Shia...and there are fringes in both groups...but though you and I both used the word secular, it actually inappropriate as saying secular Muslim is analogous to partly pregnant.
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Agreed, but secularism is not Boolean. It's a sliding scale. Every Muslim country is considerably less secular than any Western country, but there is a huge variation among them. For example, Jordan is considerably more secular than Taliban Afghanistan was.
| Pondering wrote: | Sunni societies are generally more "modern" in thier traditions...
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Really? I thought that the opposite is true. All of the most extreme and most oppressive governments in Middle East history have been Sunni. I know someone from Iran, and she says that apart from religion class, the educational system there is very modern and science-oriented.
| Pondering wrote: |
Regardless the socio-political-legal construct of Islam pervades every aspect of the culture and so it's impossible to have a secular Muslim society....you could have a secular Arab society, but it'd be tough to do.
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Or a secular Persian society, for that matter... But in practice, I agree that secularism and Islam are fundamentally incompatible.
| Pondering wrote: |
I'm not sure where you're going with "US Leadership" not understanding Muslim culture...lots of folks do understand it, but agree that many don't....In fact, Americans are universally "bad" about taking themselves as the "norm" and assuming everyone else is "like them". I think that's because we have a fairly homogenous population, national TV culture and don't tend to travel abroad despite a high standard of living.... |
I'm thinking specifically of some high-ranking U.S. official (maybe the head of the armed services committee or something like that) who was asked what the difference between Shi'ites and Sunnis is, and he had no clue.
I'm also thinking about how few Arabic-speaking soldiers were sent to Iraq, and how American troops were given virtually zero cultural sensitivity training.
As you point out, this is partly a side-effect of the standard American 'isolationist' attitude.
This picture pretty much describes the typical U.S. world view, and it's not entirely a joke:
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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That pictures is just way to funny... 
I love the 'commies live here' thing...
Santa Clause lives up here...
Big hats and smelly people...
That is just too funny.
Also.. thought I'd bring you down to earth a little. In my experiences, while traversing this rock, it is normally those who are pointing out the intellectual depravity or short comings of others, are the ones who normally are left wanting at the end of the day. An interesting tidbit bit for those who like to point at America’s ‘test scores’ as the basis for their arguments… our ‘test scores’ are a sampling of all our citizens… not jus da 1’s we’da’thought might due gooder on them tests…
Intellectual elitism... 
Your pictures was classic though. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1394
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ok...we probably disagree in the details of opinion, but generally on the same side of this argument...
Jordan is Sunni, but fairly "moderate"...Turkey is Sunni and very very secular (in commerce and public) while remaining very religious (in private)...Iran is Shia and Talibanesque in many ways (freedom of association and the press, control of entertainment, etc), but not in others....But heck, China is repressive as heck but understands scientific education is the key to "progress"...it's just whether the "state" benefits or the "populace"...In both Iran and China, I'd argue that the "states" progress is what drives the agenda...
As for linguists...it's a historic problem. Americans expect others to speak English, so it's not a major part of our curriculum...many Dutch start to learn English and French as young as 5 or 6. We're the anomoly in "advanced" countries for foreign language study...and Arabic is tough.
Modern Standard Arabic is the printed word of newspapers. The spoken tongue is very very dialectic and more divergent than even the difference between UK English/American English/Australian English....Arabs can pretty well communicate "across borders", but it's tough for Americans to really be "fluent" in multiple spoken dialects...
Regarding culture training...thats not really true...there's been alot more cultural sensitivity training than in any other engagement anywhere ever in US History...but it's a big hurdle.
And frankly, as a warfighting component, a soldier shouldn't be concerned if he hurts your inner child on his way to kill you if you're an armed combatant...but I understand the need for this kind of thing in stabilization/peace keeping ops...More frankly, that's not something the US military was designed to do (nor does very well)...
Your cartoon (I've seen it before) is pretty much spot on
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7639
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Intellectual elitism...
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I don't really think that being able to point to Canada on an unmarked map constitutes intellectual elitism, and apparently a significant percentage of Americans cannot do this...
Don't get me wrong here... I'm not trying to bash you guys. The fact that you're essentially still isolationists has both pros and cons. The impact of this attitude on foreign and military policy is definitely one of the cons, though.
As you point out, Europeans all learn foreign languages and as a consequence really end up understanding international relations a lot better than the average American. For example, they did a poll of Fox News viewers, and something like 75% of Americans thought that the rest of the world supports the Iraq war!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7639
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Anyways, I kind of sidetracked the conversation there. We should get back to Iran and its antics...
How much do we actually *know* about the incident involving the British prisoners / hostages?
Pondering, I can't remember; are you in the Navy?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7639
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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The Iranians are either torturing the British sailors, or the British sailors have no spines:
http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-03-30-voa30.cfm
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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