Richard Dawkins

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:11 am Post subject:

Hi saibe,

this verse here:

Now Exodus 21:16 says that kidnappers should be killed whether they are cought in the act, or have already sold the person as a slave.

Makes me think of When Joseph's brothers sold him to the Egyptians and then told their father he was killed by an evil beast.

There's a part after Jacob dies the brother's all get worried that Joseph is going to go after them for revenge.

Gen 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I [am] Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.

He who kills with the sword will be killed with the sword..

First Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery. During the famine they sold themselves to Pharoah who Joseph had charge of the house, so that they could have food.

Gen 45:25 ¶ And they went up out of Egypt, and came into the land of Canaan unto Jacob their father,
Gen 45:26 And told him, saying, Joseph [is] yet alive, and he [is] governor over all the land of Egypt. And Jacob's heart fainted, for he believed them not.

Well, His sons had told him that a wild beast had torn him apart and even brought the evidence of a bloody coat.
So now we see they are not only kidnappers, their liars too.

I think God takes the worst of people to make examples out of them.. Confused or disgusted

Gen 50:15 ¶ And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.
Gen 50:16 And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,
Gen 50:17 So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him.
Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we [be] thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for [am] I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive.

They sold Joseph into slavery, and then they offered themselves as slaves to Joseph.

You really can't take one thing out of the bible and
Ah ha this is it...it's all woven together in little strands, like a spiders web even.

Now Exodus 21:16 says that kidnappers should be killed whether they are cought in the act, or have already sold the person as a slave.

Exd 21:16 ¶ And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

Gen 50:15 ¶ And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him.

The bible says that Abraham kept all of God's commandments, laws, statutes..

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

The brothers broke the law, they knew they were guilty. They lied to their father. And they knew that punishment was due for their actions.
So they sold themselves to Joseph.

So when we're talking about manservants, maidservants, bondmen and freemen...who are we talking about concerning Israel?

All of the brothers who sold themselves to Joseph who all became slaves of eachother.....crazy really.. Rolling Eyes

But then when you look at the whole human race, is it any different what we do to eachother today, from what they were doing to eachother yesterday?

We say, Oh those arabs over there, their all family and cousins, can't they just get along....???

It started a long time ago..jealousy, envy...

This is what I believe the bible is about and what God is trying to teach us. The bible is based on commonsense and basic principles. It shows us where it originated, how it came about, what people are like on the inside.
It's an inside view of the workings of the human hearts and minds as seen by the one who created us all.
And how those thoughts lead to reactions and how they in turn lead to consequences.
It's kindergarten 101 on why we do the things we do.

We're the ones who complicate it... Wink

Lone

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:17 am Post subject:

It seems pretty clear to me that the OT condones slavery. But are all of the verses that we've been talking about from the OT?

What (if anything) does the NT have to say about slavery?

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:08 am Post subject:

Hi P123,

In the book of Acts we're discussing the covenant God made with Abraham:

Act 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat [them] evil four hundred years.

Act 7:7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

If slavery was ok, then why would God judge the ones who bring others into bondage?
If bondage was a good thing, God would have left them in Egypt.

The hard part about trying to apply a physical truth to the NT is because it mostly pertains to the "inner man", the spiritual life.
Not to say that it doesn't also apply to the physical, it does, but it is meant as "mind food" more so than
"body food".

1Pe 3:8 ¶ Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12 For the eyes of the Lord [are] over the righteous, and his ears [are open] unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord [is] against them that do evil.

Slavery is how we treat eachother. Taking advantage of eachother. Mistreating eachother.

from wikepedia:
Slavery is a social-economic system under which certain persons — known as slaves — are deprived of their personal freedom and compelled to provide their labour or services. The term also refers to the status or condition of those persons, who are treated as the property of another person or household. Slaves are held against their will from the time of their capture, purchase, or birth, and are deprived of the right to leave, to refuse to work, or to receive compensation in return for their labour. As such, slavery is one form of unfree labour.

Where in the NT does it say this is what we should do to eachother?

The whole NT is based on Love thy neighbour as thyself.
So if this form of life "slavery" doesn't appear as something you would like to have done to you, then you aught not do it to another.

But if you do unto others as you would not have done to you, chances are it will happen to you...
that's one of those basic principles..

you reap what you sow... Wink

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:28 am Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:35 am Post subject:

I just found a really bad one... The Bible condones using your slaves for sex:

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:33 am Post subject:

I sincerely need to do a study on who was taken into slavery in Egypt. Because while I was looking, I found that it was the Egyptians that sold themselves to Joseph who was the Governor for Pharoah...

Gen 41:55 And when all the land of Egypt was famished, the people cried to Pharaoh for bread: and Pharaoh said unto all the Egyptians, Go unto Joseph; what he saith to you, do.
Gen 41:56 And the famine was over all the face of the earth: And Joseph opened all the storehouses, and sold unto the Egyptians; and the famine waxed sore in the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:57 And all countries came into Egypt to Joseph for to buy [corn]; because that the famine was [so] sore in all lands.

Gen 47:14 And Joseph gathered up all the money that was found in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, for the corn which they bought: and Joseph brought the money into Pharaoh's house.
Gen 47:15 And when money failed in the land of Egypt, and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came unto Joseph, and said, Give us bread: for why should we die in thy presence? for the money faileth.
Gen 47:16 And Joseph said, Give your cattle; and I will give you for your cattle, if money fail.
Gen 47:17 And they brought their cattle unto Joseph: and Joseph gave them bread [in exchange] for horses, and for the flocks, and for the cattle of the herds, and for the asses: and he fed them with bread for all their cattle for that year.
Gen 47:18 When that year was ended, they came unto him the second year, and said unto him, We will not hide [it] from my lord, how that our money is spent; my lord also hath our herds of cattle; there is not ought left in the sight of my lord, but our bodies, and our lands:
Gen 47:19 Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh: and give [us] seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.
Gen 47:20 ¶ And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh's.

you know this can get a bit confusing at times, that's why you have to study..it gets interesting..

There is a verse here that leads me to believe that it is really the Israelites who are in charge of the Egyptians.

Gen 47:3 And Pharaoh said unto his brethren, What [is] your occupation? And they said unto Pharaoh, Thy servants [are] shepherds, both we, [and] also our fathers.
Gen 47:4 They said moreover unto Pharaoh, For to sojourn in the land are we come; for thy servants have no pasture for their flocks; for the famine [is] sore in the land of Canaan: now therefore, we pray thee, let thy servants dwell in the land of Goshen.
Gen 47:5 And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, Thy father and thy brethren are come unto thee:
Gen 47:6 The land of Egypt [is] before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell; in the land of Goshen let them dwell: and if thou knowest [any] men of activity among them, then make them rulers over my cattle.

So who's in charge of who here?

Also it says that to the Egyptians it was an abomination to eat bread with Hebrews.

Gen 43:32 And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that [is] an abomination unto the Egyptians.

reminds me of in the NT when the circumcision shouldn't be eating with the uncircumcised...

Gal 2:11 ¶ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,

Gen 46:34 That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, [and] also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd [is] an abomination unto the Egyptians.

Exd 8:26 And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?

you see how this can be turned around and turned around and turned around???

So, how do we answer the question concerning the laws that were made concerning slavery? We have to check out who was making the laws.
Why they were written and for whom.
God himself admits that men were following their own laws and not the ones he laid down. The interesting part is determining who's laws are who's.

It's that wheat and tares thing.
God sowed seed and created a law. And the "devil' Twisted Evil

crept in and sowed tares among the wheat.
Unless you get a sickle and start dividing the truth from the lies, then you'll never make sense of any of it.

The truth itself is hidden in the laws, and hidden in the prophets. In order to seperate you have to "find" the truth.

#1 rule...use common sense.

Is slavery a "good" thing. If it is not, then it didn't come from God. How do we know if it is a good thing or a bad thing? Do unto others as you'd have done unto you.

If you don't want to be oppressed, then don't oppress others. If you don't want to be a slave, then don't make others your slaves...

It's a very simple concept really...we're just to intellectually wise to see it...LOL Laughing

Lone

RND · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:41 am Post subject:

Lone, you are a remarkable lady!

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:08 am Post subject:

saibe · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:13 am Post subject:

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:16 am Post subject:

Hi P123,

I believe you answered that question yourself..

P1234567890 · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:55 am Post subject:

But if the verses in the Bible which condone slavery were added by evil people trying to make sure they could get away with doing evil things, then doesn't that immediately raise the question about what other parts of the Bible are fictitious and / or evil?

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:34 am Post subject:

This is what it does do P123,

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It's a book of lessons.

Just like life has good parts and bad parts. You can't negate life because it has bad parts in it.

You learn from the good and the bad things in life, and then you choose whether you want to live the good life or the evil life.

This is what the bible teaches us.

Life is what it is....and you have to live in it, learn from it, and decide how your going to exist in the time your in it.

We are shown how people can be kind, how they can be cruel, compassionate, deceptive, merciful, brutal beasts..

All of this is in the bible and it is the truth about mankind.

If the bible were a lie it would say that there is no evil in the world, everyone is a good samaritan. There is always peace and never war....see what I'm saying?

The bible tells it like it is from God's point of view.
And in this view there are no lies, only truth about liars.

God shows men by whether visions, dreams, prophecies, how things happen in the world and why they happen. How we got to where we are today by looking in the past.
I believe the bible reads backwards. That if we were to start right where we are today and travel back in time to genesis, that we would be right where we are right now.

There is only now. This time you are alive in. And everything written in the bible is about now to the person reading it whenever and wherever they are at.

100 years from today it will be now to whoever is living in 100 years. The same principles will apply, the same lessons will need to be learned. So to those reading the bible 100 years from now will be reading about us, like we read about the apostles, like they read about moses.

History repeats itself...God is neverending. He is the alpha and omega, world without end.
It's that circular thinking your always talking about, only in a realistic way.

The tormentors will always be tormented, and the peacekeepers will always find peace.
Some change their ways, some do not.
But this is also recorded in the bible.

The bible is God's testimony to man about man from the point of view of God.

And God doesn't lie, He tells it like it is.
We like to try to adjust his way of seeing things so we won't be found guilty.

You know God warned us from the beginning, and in the end, not to add or take anything from his words.
But we can't.
If man had not eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...think about it..
If man had no knowledge of anything at all...
think about that....

Isa 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because [they have] no knowledge: and their honourable men [are] famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Where was Adam and Eve when they had no knowledge of good or evil?

Christ came to redeem us from death and to give us life. To give us eyes that see and ears that hear and to give us understanding....

Where was Adam and Eve when they were blind and naked?

Christ came to clothe us with His righteousness and with his own blood..

The bible is the truth about the state of mankind. whether we like what we read about ourselves or not makes no difference. It's what we learn from what we read that determines whether we will choose to follow that which is good and live, or that which is evil and die.

It's soul food P, Angel food, food for thought, food for the spirit. Food for knowing how to live the good life or the bad life. It's the table that is set before us and has all kinds of delicacies and clean foods and unclean foods...
By eating we learn what is good or bad.
If you don't eat you will never know.
And we will die from lack of knowledge.

Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Here's a question..

If God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge, then why is it that we are told that it was by the fruit of knowledge men are condemned to die?

ramblin on....

saibe · Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:48 pm Post subject:

The practice of slaves and servants are noted through out the bible, but we fail to understand the definitive aspects of slavery institued in the bible days.

John 13:12
12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. 13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

The Holy Spirit:

Spiritual enslavement.
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

An example of spiritual enslavement we need to understand what it meant to be a slave or a servant its quite different than wikepedia defines it as.

1 Abraham was now old and well advanced in years, and the LORD had blessed him in every way. 2 He said to the chief [a] servant in his household, the one in charge of all that he had, "Put your hand under my thigh. 3 I want you to swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you will not get a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am living, 4 but will go to my country and my own relatives and get a wife for my son Isaac."

5 The servant asked him, "What if the woman is unwilling to come back with me to this land? Shall I then take your son back to the country you came from?"

6 "Make sure that you do not take my son back there," Abraham said. 7 "The LORD, the God of heaven, who brought me out of my father's household and my native land and who spoke to me and promised me on oath, saying, 'To your offspring [b] I will give this land'-he will send his angel before you so that you can get a wife for my son from there. 8 If the woman is unwilling to come back with you, then you will be released from this oath of mine. Only do not take my son back there." 9 So the servant put his hand under the thigh of his master Abraham and swore an oath to him concerning this matter.

10 Then the servant took ten of his master's camels and left, taking with him all kinds of good things from his master. He set out for Aram Naharaim [c] and made his way to the town of Nahor. 11 He had the camels kneel down near the well outside the town; it was toward evening, the time the women go out to draw water.

12 Then he prayed, "O LORD, God of my master Abraham, give me success today, and show kindness to my master Abraham. 13 See, I am standing beside this spring, and the daughters of the townspeople are coming out to draw water. 14 May it be that when I say to a girl, 'Please let down your jar that I may have a drink,' and she says, 'Drink, and I'll water your camels too'-let her be the one you have chosen for your servant Isaac. By this I will know that you have shown kindness to my master."

Look at this passage here, Abraham intrusts his cheif slave to find him a wife that is sutiable for the living God, to fulfill his promis to Abraham.

saibe · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:22 am Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:53 am Post subject: