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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Could be that they had to be weaned from the system that they were being liberated from.
Egypt was very cruel to them. They had sold themselves to Pharaoh. They were voluntary slaves.
Do we volunteer to become slaves to God and His laws?
If we do then we must abide by them.
And I don't know if the precedence was set by Jacob who served Laban for seven years for Rachael recieved Leah instead, and served another seven years for Rachael, at which time they were all free to leave.
If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.
But Laban didn't buy Jacob, Jacob sold himself to Laban for Rachael. He made himself a slave.
When the hebrews left Egypt and followed Moses, they became voluntary slaves to God and his laws.
I don't think that stealing people to be your slave is legal. Because the Law says, Thou shalt not steal.
So the only way it works properly is if one is a voluntary slave...
What about the purchasing of slaves? Does anyone have the right to sell another person?
Is a hebrew "servant" different than a "slave"?
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Slave
Jer 2:14 ( A.V.), but not there found in the original. In Rev. 18:13 the word "slaves" is the rendering of a Greek word meaning "bodies." The Hebrew and Greek words for slave are usually rendered simply "servant," "bondman," or "bondservant." Slavery as it existed under the Mosaic law has no modern parallel. That law did not originate but only regulated the already existing custom of slavery ( Exd 21:20,21,26,27; Lev 25:44-46; Jos 9:6-27). The gospel in its spirit and genius is hostile to slavery in every form, which under its influence is gradually disappearing from among men.
hmm..if you read Jeremiah Chapter 2, what seems to be taking place is they were carrying over some of the customs that they had in Egypt.
Jer 2:14 ¶ [Is] Israel a servant? [is] he a homeborn [slave]? why is he spoiled?
Jer 2:15 The young lions roared upon him, [and] yelled, and they made his land waste: his cities are burned without inhabitant.
Jer 2:16 Also the children of Noph and Tahapanes have broken the crown of thy head.
Jer 2:17 Hast thou not procured this unto thyself, in that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, when he led thee by the way?
Jer 2:18 And now what hast thou to do in the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor? or what hast thou to do in the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river?
Jer 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that [it is] an evil [thing] and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear [is] not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.
Jer 2:20 ¶ For of old time I have broken thy yoke, [and] burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.
I believe playing the harlot refers to adopting other laws from people that were around them.
God says in verse 20, that of old time he had broken their yoke of slavery and yet they were still keeping laws pertaining to slavery...so that's interesting..
And why are you doing things the way the Egyptians and Asyrians do?
I don't believe God gave them laws for burnt offerings and sacrifices but allowed them to adopt them to their own hurt.
Jer 7:21 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Jer 7:24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels [and] in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.
Jer 7:25 Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending [them]:
Jer 7:26 Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.
That's why in another thread I had asked if the Levitical priesthood had already been established in Egypt. It seems they brought a lot of baggage with them when they left town.. 
ramblin..
Peace
Lone |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1696
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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If God wrote the bible, then it is indeed puzzling why slavery wasn't condemned.
If men wrote the bible, then it makes sense - there hadn't been a social change yet in our views on slavery. That's how the world was seen back then.
We can make many couplets of observations like this. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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The way I see it admin,
Is God used men to write the truth of exactly what takes place on earth. He doesn't pull any punches and He doesn't hide the facts.
When we read about evil things in the bible it's because evil happened and when we read good things in the bible it's because good things happened.
God doesn't hide the truth, He tells it like it is. And we have a hard time interpreting it because we have to look in the mirror and admit that these guys are the same as us guys...and that cuts to the quick.
It's easier to point and them and say, look how evil they are, and not look at oneself and admit we came from them.
I honestly believe that if man wrote the bible you wouldn't read one bad thing at all. All men would be perfect and there would be no such thing as sin or evil.
Only God who is good would point out something that is evil. Evil will never admit it...that's for sure..
that's what I believe
God Bless
Lone |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6796
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| But this slavery issue is a real problem. The bottom line is that the Bible does not condemn slavery. If it's the word of God, and God is all-good and all-knowing, then why doesn't it list slavery as a sin? Why doesn't it say something like, "Anyone who owns slaves must immediately free all of them."? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thou shalt Not Covet.
Love thy neighbour as thyself.
Whoever kills man must be killed by man because God made man in His own image.
So when we take the principles and apply them.
Covet means to desire something that belongs to someone else...We belong to God.
So when one desires a slave for themselves they are coveting God's child.
Love thy neighbour as thyself....if you don't want to be treated as a slave then don't treat others as slaves.
Every person is the express image of God because He made us in his likeness. So when we do unto others we are doing unto God and what we do unto God comes right back at us.
I believe if nothing else the law of coveting applies to it being against the law to have slaves.
To say God hasn't said explicetly that it is a sin to have slaves, means that they haven't learned the first principles of the law.
And because they didn't heed and they didn't listen, they ended up breaking the law and bringing sin upon themselves.
Exd 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that [is] thy neighbour's.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Slavery does not meet the requirements of obeying the commandments. Therefore it is sin.
P wrote:
| Quote: | | But this slavery issue is a real problem. The bottom line is that the Bible does not condemn slavery. If it's the word of God, and God is all-good and all-knowing, then why doesn't it list slavery as a sin? Why doesn't it say something like, "Anyone who owns slaves must immediately free all of them."? |
Didn't God tell them?
He wrote it right there with His finger.
Thou shalt not covet.
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself...
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.
Do you show love to someone by making them your slaves?
They heard what they wanted to hear, and became deaf when it mattered.
Lone |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I think Lone makes some good points, and what she posted should be viewed in the manner in which she posted it. |
I think she does too - I just don't think that it negates that the bible is talking about real slavery (specifically in the passages mentioned) - not just a lack of total utter complete freedom from everyone including 'the man'.
| RevJP wrote: |
An analogy: If you are in a store and you see a mother swat her child on the rear end and you do not confront her even though you personally do not approve, does this imply that you condone such action? I think the reasonable person would answer that it does not. |
Let's expand on the analogy: if I make rules about how to properly swat a child, am I or am I not condoning the action of swatting a child? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
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Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Ana,
I don't understand what you mean here.
| Quote: | | I think she does too - I just don't think that it negates that the bible is talking about real slavery (specifically in the passages mentioned) - not just a lack of total utter complete freedom from everyone including 'the man'. |
help..  |
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RevJP
Moderator
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Posts: 6845
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | I think she does too - I just don't think that it negates that the bible is talking about real slavery (specifically in the passages mentioned) - not just a lack of total utter complete freedom from everyone including 'the man'. |
I don't think she was asserting that it negates anything, simply pointing out that there was much more to it than just the slavery happening in that day. What she said also leads to discussion about the nature of slavery in that day, it was much more than what we understand through our history of slavery.
Indeed people were taken from their lands and put into bondage, but for the most part it was a much more elaborate system of labor and classism. People put themselves into bondage much of the time, or members of their families, for various reasons.
As a side note: If a person wishes to sell themselves into slavery, then is there not an aspect of personal choice and responsibility? If so, and if the socio-economic stability of the world rested on this institution, would it not be understandable, or even acceptable that scripture provided rules on how to treat those who were slaves rather than denounce the institution as a whole? Considering of course that one would be viewing these dictates through the eyes of their contemporaries and not the hindsight of 4000 years later...
| Quote: |
if I make rules about how to properly swat a child, am I or am I not condoning the action of swatting a child? |
If it is not illegal to swat a child and such action were an acceptable and widely practiced method of discipline then your condemning or condoning would be irrelevant. You would be simply establishing a more humane way of doing what is already being done and will continue to be done.
Although, you could make a law condemning the practice and making it illegal, but then you would have to consider the ramifications of such and the possibility, or more to the point: impossibility, of enforcing that law. Which I see is much the case with the OT passages concerning the treatment of slaves.
BTW, all slaves were not laborers without pay, many indentured slaves earned wages of some sort, in one way or another, so the institution we understand is not quite the same as the institution they understood. |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You asked if the world was fair. Noah cursed, not the perpetrator, but the perpetrator's son and offspring yet to come. That is not fair, so I can conclude that no, the world is not fair, even in the bible. However, Noah was saved because:
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| Gen 6:9 wrote: | | These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God. |
| Quote: | Noah condemned his grandson and all his grandson's offspring to slavery (he invented it perhaps?), and this is what we get from the one man on the planet God felt was worth saving (who we've seen already described as being just) from his big flood.[/color]
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| Quote: | However, God is supposed to be just. Why would he create an unfair world? That wouldn't be fair. The only way out of this little contradiction is to say that the world is fair, and that since Noah, a just man, condemned his grandson (and his entire family) to slavery, that slavery too must be fair, or just.
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You are correct in your conclusion that the world is unfair.Yes Noah was considered righteous apart from his evil generation. Becouse God looks at the heart (judges the intentions) of a person, while others depend on the outside to judge someones character.I dont beleive Noah wanted to curse his son & grandson etc. and it was not evil for him to do it. He cursed him becouse his son was evil for looking at his nakedness and going to tell his other brothers, when he could have did as the brothers did and covered him. In the bible curses go down from generation, to generation unless someone in the fam. stops it. God made a covenant between himself and Noah after the flood. God actually gave a blessing to Noah and his sons, including Ham before he did wrong to his father.
Gen. 9: NIV
1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.
I am not sure if I would use condemned to describe the curse of slavery becouse although they were slaves, God stilled showed compsion to them.
Not likely Noah invented slavery. If you look at the begining of Genisis, God made man and woman and gave them dominion over everything in the earth. Then satan, which is presented as a serpent, tempts Eve with eating the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which God forbid them to eat. So they ate the fruit. Then God called out to them, they hid becouse they were afraid that God would see them naked. Before they were not aware of their nakedness, becouse they were not under God's law. They were perfect and sinless before they disobeyed God.
Genisis 3:14-19 The Message Version
14-15 God told the serpent:
"Because you've done this, you're cursed,
cursed beyond all cattle and wild animals,
Cursed to slink on your belly
and eat dirt all your life.
I'm declaring war between you and the Woman,
between your offspring and hers.
He'll wound your head,
you'll wound his heel."
16 He told the Woman:
"I'll multiply your pains in childbirth;
you'll give birth to your babies in pain.
You'll want to please your husband,
but he'll lord it over you."
17-19 He told the Man:
"Because you listened to your wife
and ate from the tree
That I commanded you not to eat from,
'Don't eat from this tree,'
The very ground is cursed because of you;
getting food from the ground
Will be as painful as having babies is for your wife;
you'll be working in pain all your life long.
The ground will sprout thorns and weeds,
you'll get your food the hard way,
Planting and tilling and harvesting,
sweating in the fields from dawn to dusk,
Until you return to that ground yourself, dead and buried;
you started out as dirt, you'll end up dirt."
[color=red]Genisis 3:22
22 God said, "The Man has become like one of us, capable of knowing everything, ranging from good to evil. What if he now should reach out and take fruit from the Tree-of-Life and eat, and live forever? Never—this cannot happen!"
God did not intend for the world to be unfair. He made us to exemplify his supremeness. You see before he made man there was a war going on in Heaven, to which Satan was kicked out, becouse he wanted God's glory he was starting a revolt. When he left he took I beleive (dont quote me) 1/3 of the angels with him. So when God made man, he made us for himself, but Satan tempted Adam and Eve. This is how sin became and all the evil that we see happening in the world. So God is good and righteous but we know that the disobedience of Adam Eve was the birth of temptation, with it comes all the unfairness that comes with it. Slavery came from sin, Adam and Eve were the firts slaves, they were slaves to sin.
| saibe wrote: | | The bible, which is the word of God, is good. All of the bible is good. So, to answer your question no, slavery is not ok. |
| Quote: | Well, for one thing, my argument above disagrees with you, and for another, your conclusion does not follow from the sentence before it.
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No, I dont agree with slavery. But it is a fact that we became slaves to sin in the begining with Adam & Eve becouse of their sin, and Noah cursed Ham & Canaan becouse he did wrong, so it was just. Now that is not to say that slavery is right in all other context, like the start of shiping slaves from Africa in the early 1600s to the newly founded Jamestown, becouse it's not right, and God does not condon it. Its evident that the passage in Exodus explaining the treatment of slaves. Now are these the anscesters of Canaan? Im not sure. But if it is, it would be fulfiling the curse from Noah unto Canaan, which was done becouse of Ham's evilness onto Noah.
| saibe wrote: | | In the scripture you qouted from Lev. Its telling of how to treat a servant or slave. |
For the record, I actually quoted Exodus, which is interesting since Exodus features a large story about a bunch of slaves escaping (from the pharaoh? go Moses?), indicating that sometimes slavery is not okay. I don't recall reading anywhere whether or not the pharaoh was following the rules laid out in the part I quoted. Of course, those rules were handed down after the slaves had escaped with Moses, so it is extremely unlikely that the pharaoh knew those rules beforehand.
I actually meant to quoted from Exodus, the scripture you were question me about. But sinse I did, and it interest Ill comment on it.
Exodus is about the promise God said to Abraham, that he would have many descendants, and make him a father of nations. Well his descendents were in captivity by a new Pharaoh. (Imfrustrated becouse its hard for me to explain everything about the bible concerning this slavery matter in a post. plus my hands are hurting from typing:lol:.) Anyway later on in the begining of Exodus God fulfils his promise to Abraham.
Exodus 1:8 NIV
8 Then a new king, who did not know about Joseph, came to power in Egypt. 9 "Look," he said to his people, "the Israelites have become much too numerous for us. 10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country."
11 So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh. 12 But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread; so the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites 13 and worked them ruthlessly. 14 They made their lives bitter with hard labor in brick and mortar and with all kinds of work in the fields; in all their hard labor the Egyptians used them ruthlessly.
I suggest you please read Gen. Exodus the complete chapters, becouse you would have a better understanding of slavery.
Moses is chosen to lead the people out of slavery etc.
So do you still think slavery is not okay, as you asserted before? I'd agree with you; I do not think slavery is okay, but then, the bible is not my moral compass. I do not think that the bible is wholly good. Like P, I think there are some good bits, but I also think there are some repugnant bits.[/quote]
Like I said I dont think slavery is ok, and God did not want slavery either, but you have to read into the context of the scripture to find out why slavery was used in the bible.
I understand you dont rely on God or the bible, and you think there are some good bits, but repugnant bits, but if you feel that, are you saying youve read the whole bible, and concluded its not for you? |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Hi Ana,
I don't understand what you mean here.
| Quote: | | I think she does too - I just don't think that it negates that the bible is talking about real slavery (specifically in the passages mentioned) - not just a lack of total utter complete freedom from everyone including 'the man'. |
help.. |
Well, you're making metaphors about aspects of modern life being slavery, which seems to me to somehow be distracting from the issue that the bible in that chapter of Exodus is talking about real slavery (and not just a metaphor). That's it, really. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | lone-traveler wrote: | Hi Ana,
I don't understand what you mean here.
| Quote: | | I think she does too - I just don't think that it negates that the bible is talking about real slavery (specifically in the passages mentioned) - not just a lack of total utter complete freedom from everyone including 'the man'. |
help.. |
Well, you're making metaphors about aspects of modern life being slavery, which seems to me to somehow be distracting from the issue that the bible in that chapter of Exodus is talking about real slavery (and not just a metaphor). That's it, really. |
me got simple brain..LOL..negate..threw me.. 
I believe they really truly were keeping slaves. Just like Pharaoh made them slaves. They were bringing the same "traditions" with them that they had learned from Egypt.
All I'm saying is God never commanded them to keep slaves. He actually wrote a law against it, which I believe coveting would cover..or even stealing peoples labour for free. Maybe even murdering their spirit by killing their spirit.
God says His law is spiritual. It was meant to be understood spiritually. We take it literally because we were taught it literally.
That doesn't mean it's ok to go murder someone physically, It means it carries a much deeper significance than just what appears on the outside.
Slavery is wrong whether it be a physical enslavement of one's body, or a spiritual enslavement of one's mind.
It's not so much a metaphor as it is both an internal truth and an external truth.
Slavery can work a persons body to death, it can also kill their spirit.
You ever watch the series "Roots"? Chicken George, Kunta Kinte...that was a good series.
It's been a long time since I seen it. But I remember watching how the people were humiliated, demoralized, abused, tormented, frightened.
Being stolen from their homes, brought to a country where they were chained and uggghh so much badddd.
In my deepest most honest, sincerest belief, I can not see God agreeing with this behavior.
I see men going against the law doing whatever they want. But I see God sitting back and saying.."your gonna get yours"... 
It's that boomerang effect...it's gonna come right back atcha..
we may not see it yet, but it sure feels like dark clouds coming over the horizon...
thanks for making that clearer for me Ana, sometimes I get hung up on a word and it just throws me for a loop..
LOL..
Lone |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | You ever watch the series "Roots"? Chicken George, Kunta Kinte...that was a good series.
It's been a long time since I seen it. But I remember watching how the people were humiliated, demoralized, abused, tormented, frightened.
Being stolen from their homes, brought to a country where they were chained and uggghh so much badddd.
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I thought that series would never end, you need time and a lot of it to watch it. It's very interesting how "the man" treated folks as slaves BTW If you remember kunta kinte, pretty sure you remember kizzy, I think it was there daughter, very imformative. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | I think she does too - I just don't think that it negates that the bible is talking about real slavery (specifically in the passages mentioned) - not just a lack of total utter complete freedom from everyone including 'the man'. |
I don't think she was asserting that it negates anything, simply pointing out that there was much more to it than just the slavery happening in that day. What she said also leads to discussion about the nature of slavery in that day, it was much more than what we understand through our history of slavery. |
See, that's just it - what she said does not describe slavery in those days.
| RevJP wrote: |
Indeed people were taken from their lands and put into bondage, but for the most part it was a much more elaborate system of labor and classism. |
I see. So that makes it alright then.
| RevJP wrote: | | People put themselves into bondage much of the time, or members of their families, for various reasons. |
The passage talks about buying slaves. When somebody sells themselves into slavery, then is the owner-to-be actually purchasing something? If so, to whom does the money go?
I don't know about you, but I don't think time could ever make me sell a daughter into servitude. There simply isn't a price for her.
| RevJP wrote: |
As a side note: If a person wishes to sell themselves into slavery, then is there not an aspect of personal choice and responsibility? |
See my above for this bit - you kind of touched on this already.
| RevJP wrote: | | If so, and if the socio-economic stability of the world rested on this institution, would it not be understandable, or even acceptable that scripture provided rules on how to treat those who were slaves rather than denounce the institution as a whole? |
He's okay with drowning the whole world; he's okay with burning entire cities; why should he balk at disturbing socio-economics built around something so vile? Unless, of course, he thinks slavery is okay? ... And we're back to slavery being acceptable by the bible's standards.
| RevJP wrote: | Considering of course that one would be viewing these dictates through the eyes of their contemporaries and not the hindsight of 4000 years later...
| Quote: |
if I make rules about how to properly swat a child, am I or am I not condoning the action of swatting a child? |
If it is not illegal to swat a child and such action were an acceptable and widely practiced method of discipline then your condemning or condoning would be irrelevant. You would be simply establishing a more humane way of doing what is already being done and will continue to be done. |
Illegal? God is the one in charge of saying what is and isn't illegal.
| RevJP wrote: |
Although, you could make a law condemning the practice and making it illegal, but then you would have to consider the ramifications of such and the possibility, or more to the point: impossibility, of enforcing that law. Which I see is much the case with the OT passages concerning the treatment of slaves. |
Impossibility? Nothing is impossible for God (or so I've heard). His solution is simple: if someone owns a slave, into the lake of fire with him.
| RevJP wrote: |
BTW, all slaves were not laborers without pay, many indentured slaves earned wages of some sort, in one way or another, so the institution we understand is not quite the same as the institution they understood. |
You know, have you actually read the ethical treatment the slaves were supposed to receive? There's a bit in there about how the owner may provide a male slave with a wife, and if they have children, then when the man's six years are up he has to leave his family behind or become a lifelong slave, since the wife and kids are technically the owner's property.
Look, here's a question: slavery as we understand it today - what does the bible say about it? Is it okay, or is it not okay? |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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BTW Lone,
It looks like you answered a lot of what I was asking RevJP, while I was still typing out the qestions...
 
Stilll, about the coveting thing - I don't think that condemns slavery - I think it condemns wanting somebody else's slave to be your own.
I think if the bible condemned slavery, it'd say something like, "Thou shalt not own each other, for you all belong to me."
Look, the bible condemns eating shellfish clearly. It doesn't lay down provisions for how one ought to do it.
I sadly have to say I don't see the same for slavery (modern, ancient, or other). |
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saibe
Ferret
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 120
Location: houston tx
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| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Slavery means you don't get paid; slavery means you have no choice. Slavery means you are owned; you are property, and as such you can be bought or sold. |
Yes, but does this definition, or what we relate to as slavery fit the explanation found in the bible?
| Quote: | The passage talks about buying slaves. When somebody sells themselves into slavery, then is the owner-to-be actually purchasing something? If so, to whom does the money go?
I don't know about you, but I don't think time could ever make me sell a daughter into servitude. There simply isn't a price for her. |
What the scriptures say about slavery, and our "perception" of slavery in modern times is obviously different from what the bible considers slavery within the different aspects like the treatment of slaves, kidnapping, freedom, inheretence. In the bible, I get a different impression on how some became slaves, like lone said, people enslaved themselves. Here are two scripures located in the same chapter quoted. (conviently left out?)
Exodus 21:7-11 The Message version
7-11 "When a man sells his daughter to be a handmaid, she doesn't go free after six years like the men. If she doesn't please her master, [color=red]her family must buy her back; her master doesn't have the right to sell her to foreigners since he broke his word to her. If he turns her over to his son, he has to treat her like a daughter. If he marries another woman, she retains all her full rights to meals, clothing, and marital relations. If he won't do any of these three things for her, she goes free, for nothing.
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Exodus 21:26
26 "If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye.
That was a great description of the relationship between Jacob and Labon by, lone.:turn-l:That story supports
lone's and Rev 's sentiment of voluntary enslavement.
Exodus 21:16
16 “Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.
hmm...now Im thinking, thats a dangerous thing for me btw. lol
Rev, Lone
chime in and let me know what you think.
Noah cursed Canaan to slavery
25 Then he cursed Canaan, the son of Ham:
“May Canaan be cursed!
May he be the lowest of servants to his relatives.”
Now Exodus 21:16 says that kidnappers should be killed whether they are cought in the act, or have already sold the person as a slave.
Now this scripture is evident, that God did not condone this kind of slavery (someone who kidnapps to enslave and slaves are treated harshly).
Is it possiable that Noah cursed his grandson to be servants, but not slaves. Could it be that when Noah cursed Canaan to a life of poverty, with no wealth or expansion, so that he and his descendants would have no other choice but to be the servents?
Rev made a good point about economic stability being a driving force behind voluntary inslavement. I also beleive that it was case of social class. The economically sound were served by the underprivileged. Not to say this was for all accounts of slavery referenced in the bible, but I do mean to say that slavery in reference to the bible was complex, and not a simple God condones slavery.
Exodus 21:26
26 "If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye.
This scripture suggests that there were fine lines between slave and manservant or maidservant. They could have earned a wage, possiably inslaved themeselves for food.
As mordern people we are aquainted with the modern term of slaves, and with the mordern atrocious treatment of slaves. We ask for definitive truths when it comes to the bible, we want the bible to specify this or that, and yes, sometimes God does give us certain indication of what is acceptable for example ,the ten commandments. But it's within the context of the scriptures where we learn God's truth, law and love.
This just makes me realize why it is so important to study and pray, so that God will reveal the true meanings of his word.
The law is good and righteous.
Romans 7:11,12
11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
Psalm 119:17,18
17 Be good to your servant,
that I may live and obey your word.
18 Open my eyes to see
the wonderful truths in your instructions. |
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