Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby

FAQ

Contact

Profile

Can women prophesy and lead others?

Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3

Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Women's Issues and the Bible

Author

Message

Steven3
Lion King

Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205

Location: UK

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject:

MoJo wrote:

Of course Paul was an apostle. He was chosen and appointed directly by Jesus, just like the others.

Did you know there were actually thirteen tribes of Israel?

Very Happy

That's a good point because Joseph got Reuben's double-share of the firstborn for his two sons.

However I'm not sure that we can bracket Paul in with the 12. The bishoprick (KJVese, = elder-vacancy) of Judas was filled by Matthias in Acts 1, specifically referring to the 12 bishopricks in the Jerusalem church - other churches, such as Ephesus, had their own multiple bishops=presbyters=elders. In that case the promise of sitting on 12 thrones in the kingdom goes to Matthias not Paul, who was in any case apostle to Gentiles.

Or rather one of the apostles to the Gentiles:

2 Corinthians 8:23 As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker for your benefit. And as for our brothers, they are messengers (Greek = apostles) of the churches, the glory of Christ.

God bless
Steven

Steven3
Lion King

Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205

Location: UK

Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject:

Hi Lily, Luvnlife

luvnlife wrote:

Lily wrote:

Just Curious!

The Apostle Paul said:

Quote:
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34

Could someone here point me to that Law he speaks of.

I have asked that question several times myself and even presented possibilities in my post about the apostle Paul but have only gotten answers that kind of 'dance around' the 'as also saith the law' statement.

Much Love, Luv Smile

Has this actually been answered? Or just more dancing Wink

It's usually taken as refering generically to verses like Numbers 5:19,20,27,29 etc etc. which talk of a wife "under her husband's authority". But it's possible when Paul says "the Law" he doesn't mean "Exodus-Deuteronomy" that he could have something very basic indeed in mind:

Gen.3:16 To the woman he said,
“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children.
Your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule [Hebrew MASHAL] over you.”

Now, I know this isn't an exact verbatim match with 1Co14:34, but then neither are the various verses from Numbers and Leviticus which are usually suggested as the source of 1Co14:34. What is more important is that it fits Paul's tendency to go back to Adam and Eve whenever gender relations are raised. e.g. 1 Timothy 2:13 "For Adam was formed first, then Eve"

Whatever we might think the Bible isn't exactly a feminist manifesto Wink

, even allowing for Paul not being as total a rampant male chauvenist pig as other Jewish writers of his day (people who think otherwise and knock Paul by their own post-modern standards simply have never read anything 1stCentury outside the NT), Paul still wasn't Germaine Greer either.

Personally I'm all for a bit of cultural adjustment to make the important bits of the Gospel sit with modern life (Paul was too), but we've got to be honest about it, and we shouldn't try and shoehorn what Paul is saying to our own agendas (and we all have them), to either make what Paul says worse or better.
God bless
Steven

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:20 am Post subject:

Steven3 wrote:

Quote:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34

Could someone here point me to that Law he speaks of.

Hi Steven3,

I'll be really honest, I believe from scripture that any man or woman is permitted to speak in the church by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I also believe scripture teaches that no man or woman is permitted to speak in the church without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I will try to explain why I believe this is so.

Jesus said to Nicodemus:

Quote:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:6

The Bible uses the things born of the flesh to teach us about things born of the Spirit.

For example Jesus went on to say to Nicodemus:

Quote:

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Joh 3:7-10

What was Nicodemus doing wrong when he said:

Quote:

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Joh 3:4

Was he not confusing the things born of the flesh with the things born of the Spirit?

Jesus was showing him and us that the physical birthing process had a deeper Spiritual meaning, as do all natural things born of the flesh.

Take note of what Paul said:

Quote:

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Rom 7:14

I am convinced that Paul not only knew that the law is spiritual(born of the Spirit), but he also spoke in Spiritual terms. So in other words when he was making statement's like:

Quote:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34

...he meant it to be understood in Spiritual terms and not fleshly. This is also why I think he said the following:

Quote:

But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. 1Co 11:16

Because he didn't want men and women alike getting tripped up over the fleshly custom and totally missing the Spiritual truth he had hoped to teach us.

If you find this hard to believe than here is an example of Jesus' disciples appearing to break the Law but in fact they were not:

Quote:

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. Mat 12:1-6

There are many such examples of people in scripture breaking the fleshly law but are obeying the Spiritual Law. There are equally many examples of people obeying the fleshly law but are breaking the Spiritual Law. One such example is when the Pharisees tried to tempt Jesus with a fleshly law:

Quote:

And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more. Joh 8:3-11

It is obvious to most that Jesus did not want to stone the woman even though it was written in the law of Moses. But why not? Is it enough to say that Jesus was so compassionate that the Father let him avoid keeping this commandment? Or was it because he understood the Spiritual meaning of this fleshly commandment? The following verse gives us a clue:

Quote:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:17-20

How was it possible to obey these words of our Saviour and exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees and yet abandon most of the OT Law as Paul so strongly encouraged in this verse to the Galatians?

Quote:

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal 5:3-4

How could both be true?

Because the Law Paul spoke of was the fleshly law, the law Jesus spoke of was the Spiritual Law which is hidden(veiled) in types and shadows throughout the entire Bible.

Okay, I hope I have done enough ground work here so that when I tell you how I heard the verse you quoted, you won't freak out too much Shocked

.

Here is the verse you quoted in it's fleshly form:

Quote:

Gen.3:16 To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

Now here is how I believe this verse should be understood spiritually:

bitterlily wrote:

"To the church he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth babes unto Christ. Your desire shall be for your husband Jesus Christ, and he shall rule over you.”

And now the first verse:

Quote:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:34

And again this is how I believe this verse should be understood spiritually:

Bitterlily wrote:

"Let the church(called out ones) keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

Now I know that sounds weird on the surface of it, but please think about it for a moment. Jesus commanded his disciples:

Quote:

But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: FOR IT IS NOT YE THAT SPEAK, BUT THE HOLY SPIRIT. Mar 13:11

In other words Jesus' Church (women) were not to think before hand what they would speak and neither were they to premeditate, because the Holy Spirit was and is the only one permitted to speak in the Church.

This also highlights that the church(women) are to be like Jesus who said:

Quote:

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. Joh 12:49-50

So if we go back to the story of the woman caught in adultery, we have to conclude from the above verse that when Jesus said:

Quote:

"...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her'. Joh 8:7

That these words were the words the Father had commanded him to speak. Why?

Because the Father knew what the true Spiritual meaning of His commandment was. And that is the fleshly adultery this woman was caught in was only a picture of the Spiritual adultery of which the Pharisees were guilty of as Jesus said:

Quote:

The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven...(Jesus replied)A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. Mat 16:1-4

This all explains why the following verse is so true and yet we can be totally oblivious to it:

Quote:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.Rom 2:1

Much Love Everyone
Bitterlily

Steven3
Lion King

Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205

Location: UK

Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:14 am Post subject:

Hi Bitterlily Just to let you know where I'm coming from, I don't have any brief/agenda or mission on this subject. I couldn't really care less. And I think any man who thinks he can or should stop a woman speaking is a fool. In any context Someone, I think it was Luvnlife asked a question - where the quote about obedience came from in "the law". I've suggested, as best I can, that it comes from Genesis, also colloquially called "the law" by Jews, rather than the "law" proper - Exodus to Deuteronomy. That suggestion can be taken or left by whoever. As for the rest, sure, as you say. It's completely to be expected that many people, male and female, think they are "inspired" to speak in church - either from the pulpit or the pew, solo or simultaneous. And that was the case at Corinth too, which is why Paul ends with: 14:36 "Or was it from you that the word of God came?" and why he asks "Or are you the only ones it has reached?" and then finally he concludes: 14:37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual [i.e. inspired, spirit-gifted], then he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. Just "thinks" they're inspired, or really are inspired? What things he writes? The preceding verses??? 1Co14:33 As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. Surely it isn't really "shameful" for a woman to speak in church. It's the same word "shameful" in 1Co.11:6 and Eph5:12, so what's he talking about? And finally what on earth does he mean by this: 1Co14:38 "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." How can a church "not recognise" someone who doesn't recognise what Paul commands towards the end of 1Co14. If, say, as happens, three or four sisters were to stands up and simultaneously utter prophecies, speak in tongues without translation, they would be extremely recognisable. Both recognisable for thinking they are prophets and "spiritual" (ie spirit-gifted), and audible and visible. So 1Co14:38 "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." is something of a mystery. What exactly did he want recognized by those who thought they were spiritual? And who are the people supposed not to recognise the ones who consider themselves inspired if the inspired don't recognise what Paul says??? God bless Steven

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: Paul, An Apostle to the Gentiles

The word Apostle is translated from the Greek word Apostolos. The following quote is from Strong's Number's Bible Dictionary:

Quote:

G652
ἀπόστολος
apostolos
ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Apostolos comes from another Greek word Apostello. The following quote is from Strong's Number's Bible Dictionary:

Quote:

G649
ἀποστέλλω
apostellō
ap-os-tel'-lo
From G575 and G4724; set apart, that is, (by implication) to send out (properly on a mission) literally or figuratively: - put in, send (away, forth, out), set [at liberty].

This shows that for a person to be worthy of the Title of Apostle(Apostolos) of Jesus they have to have been SENT or commissioned(Apostello) by Jesus.

PAUL A CHOSEN VESSEL OF JESUS TO THE GENTILES

Quote:

But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul(renamed Paul by Jesus), the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto you in the way as you came, hath sent me, that you might receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. (Act 9:15-17)

THE HOLY SPIRIT SEPARATES BARNABAS AND SAUL FOR THE WORK THEY HAVE BEEN CALLED TO

Quote:

As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.(Act 13:2)

THE LORD CONFIRMS PAUL AND BARNABAS' TESTIMONY BY GRANTING SIGNS AND WONDERS AT THEIR HAND

Quote:

Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. (Act 14:3)

GOD WAS WITH PAUL AND BARNABAS IN THEIR JOURNEYING

Quote:

And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. (Act 14:26-27)

THE LORD COMMANDS PAUL TO SPEAK AND NOT HOLD HIS PEACE

Quote:

Then spoke the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with you, and no man shall set on you to hurt you: for I have much people in this city. And he continued [there] a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. (Act 18:9-11)

THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVEN BY PAUL’S LAYING OF HANDS

Quote:

And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spoke with tongues, and prophesied. (Act 19:6)

GOD WROUGHT SPECIAL MIRACLES BY THE HANDS OF PAUL

Quote:

And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. (Act 19:11-12)

SOME JEWS ATTEMPT TO COPY PAUL IN HIS AUTHORITY OVER EVIL SPIRITS AND ARE OVERCOME

Quote:

Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. (Act 19:13-16)

THE HOLY SPIRIT WITNESSED IN EVERY CITY WHICH PAUL WENT

Quote:

And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there: Save that the Holy Ghost witnesses in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me. (Act 20:23)

HIS MINISTRY GIVEN BY JESUS

Quote:

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. (Act 20:22-24)

PAUL WARNS THEM THAT PERVERSION OF THE GOSPEL WILL ARISE FROM AMONG THEM

Quote:

For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. (Act 20:29-31)

PAUL IS TOLD HE'LL BE BOUND IN JERUSALEM

Quote:

And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus says the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owns this girdle, and shall deliver [him] into the hands of the Gentiles. (Act 21:11)

PAUL WILLING TO OBEY AND EVEN DIE FOR THE NAME OF JESUS

Quote:

Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. (Act 21:13)

JAMES AND ALL THE ELDERS GLORIFY THE LORD WHEN TOLD BY PAUL THE THINGS GOD DID AMONG THE GENTILES BY HIS MINISTRY

Quote:

And the [day] following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: (Act 21:17-20)

PAUL RETELLS HIS BEING APPOINTED BY JESUS

Quote:

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecute you me? And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told you of all things which are appointed for you to do. And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus. And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt [there], Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen you, that you should know his will, and see that Just One, and should hear the voice of his mouth. For you shall be his witness unto all men of what you hast seen and heard. And now why tarry you? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 9)

JESUS SENDS PAUL TO THE GENTILES

Quote:

And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send(Apostello) thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. (Act 26:15-18)

THE LORD COMMANDS PAUL TO LEAVE JERUSALEM SAYING HE WILL SEND HIM FAR FROM THERE

Quote:

And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get you quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me. And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on you: And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send(exapostello) you far hence unto the Gentiles. (Act 22:10-21)

THE LORD SAYS PAUL MUST TESTIFY OF HIM IN ROME

Quote:

And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as you hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must you bear witness also at Rome. (Act 23:11)

PAUL STATES HIS GOD-APPOINTED MISSION TO THE GENTILES

Quote:

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent(Apostello) unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it. (Act 28:28)

PETER COMMENDS AND DEFENDS ALL OF “BELOVED BROTHER” PAULS EPISTLES EQUALING THEM TO THE SCRIPTURES

Quote:

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2Pe 3:14-16)

PETER'S STATEMENT THE SAME AS PAUL'S

Quote:

Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him. (Act 10:34-35)

THE BEREANS WHO SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY RECIEVED PAULS WORD AND BELIEVED

Quote:

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honorable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. (Act 17:10-12)

THE WRITER OF ACTS CALLS PAUL AND BARNABAS APOSTLES

Quote:

[Which] when the apostles(Apostolos), Barnabas and Paul, heard [of], they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, (Act 14:14)

I hope this is sufficient evidence of Paul's Apostleship by Jesus. Next I would like to focus on the verses that indicate all Paul's writings were to be understood "SPIRITUALLY" and not "PHYSICALLY".

TO BE CONTINUED...

Much Love

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:24 am Post subject:

Some may have heard me mention a man by the name of Stephen e. Jones. Well here I go again. He wrote a very amazing book called "Secrets of Time" where he said the following:

Stephen Jones wrote:

Then Moses sent the 12 spies into the land of Canaan to spy out the land. They looked things over for 40 days (Num. 13:25), and returned in the fall of the year at the time of the grape harvest (Num. 13:20). In the biblical Feast of Tabernacles, the priest poured out a drink offering on each of the seven days of Tabernacles. This was the firstfruits of the new grape harvest, the new wine. The treading of the grapes would have occurred on the Day of Atonement just five days prior to Tabernacles.
So we can pinpoint the time the 12 spies gave their report. It was the fall of 2449, which was, by ancient reckoning, the tenth day of the seventh month. This was actually ten days into the next year, the year 2450, because the Hebrew calendar’s New Year began in the fall.
It just so happened that that year—2450—was the Jubilee of Jubilees from Adam. The trumpet for the Jubilee was to be blown in the 50th year, on the tenth day of the seventh month.
The 50th year was also the first year of the next Jubilee cycle. Because the 50th year overlapped the first year of the next cycle, a period of ten Jubilees is actually 490 years, rather than 500 years.
And 50 Jubilees is actually 50 x 49 years, or 2450 years.
The point is that Israel was supposed to blow the trumpet and decide to inherit the Promised Land on the day that the 12 spies gave their report. It was a Jubilee of Jubilees, when every man was to return to his possession (Lev. 25:13).

The reason I wanted to raise this point is because I am convinced that the 12 spies in some way or another represent the Apostles of Jesus (including Paul) who spied out our promised land (which I think may be represented somehow by the Feast of Tabernacles) and gave us their report in the scriptures. And in the same way that the Israelites did not go up to take the promised land for another 38 years (40 in total) neither have the church gone up to take their promised land for 40 Jubilee cycles. I along with Stephen Jones believe that our time to enter into our inheritance is at hand.

I also personally believe that much of what the Apostle Paul spoke of in his epistles was the result of having spied out our Spiritual Promised Land. This is supported by what he says here:

Quote:

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect(fully grown or mature): yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: [u][b]for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1Co 2:6-16

I remember a few years ago reading the following verse:

Quote:

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Heb 5:12-14

And I found myself asking what this strong meat was Paul spoke of, never imagining that alot of his epistles were filled with this strong meat Laughing

as Peter also alluded to:

Quote:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2Pe 3:16

Since having that realization Paul's writings(and all scripture) have opened up to me in a whole new light. For example when Paul was talking about the meat eater and the vegetarian, I believe he was referring to those who eat the strong meat of his writings (and all scripture) and so when Paul says:

Quote:

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Rom 14:1-3

I don't think he was speaking about Carnivores and Herbivores but Babes and Adults in Christ.(Come to think of it I think it would be more accurate to say Babes and Children rather than Adults in Christ). I was recently reminded of these following verses after receiving a response to one of my other posts:

Quote:

But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Rom 14:15-23

What I hear this saying is that it is not acceptable to God that we try to force feed anyone (spiritual) meat if they cannot or will not receive it. I think we can offer it but that is all. Each must be given the choice whether they eat it or not, and we are not to despise them for rejecting it, and they are not to judge us for eating it.

Quote:

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost

It is also interesting to note that if this is only to be understood in a physical sense than this is just another example of Paul raising another subject that is nowhere mentioned in the OT Law. In fact all were obligated to be meat-eaters under the OT Law. So the only conclusion left to come to is that Paul was making things up as he went along OR he was speaking in Spiritual terms. Most people have opted for the former conclusion, my hope is that after this many will opt for the latter and read again and watch as the scriptures open up to them in a whole new light. I think when this happens, many will begin bringing a whole variety of strong meat to the table and we will all have a big Feast (maybe even a Tabernacles one Very Happy

).

Something to remember about Paul is that He was a Pharisee:

Quote:

I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. Act 22:3-5

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:5-7

Isn't it strange that Paul was a Pharisee of the highest degree who knew the OT Law like the back of his hand then after meeting Jesus on the Damascus Road, he appears in his epistles to be teaching from a whole new Law Book. The truth is he wasn't but he was expounding on the Spiritual OT Law (spying on our inheritance), the same in which Jesus said he came to fulfill.

I hope this has been edifying or at the very least food for thought. Very Happy

Much Love
Bitterlily

Last edited by bitterlily on Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total

holly102869
Show Poodle

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 250

Location: Central, Florida USA

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:59 am Post subject:

If women were not ment to lead others then explain why even in the old testament: A woman Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Isreal? Judges 4:4 I believe Bitterlily put it to us in a easiest way I have ever heard it. [/quote]

Steven3
Lion King

Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205

Location: UK

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject:

Hi Holly

holly102869 wrote:

If women were not ment to lead others then explain why even in the old testament: A woman Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Isreal? Judges 4:4

Deborah is obviously a better example than Athaliah for illustrating that there are times for women to take the lead in God's order of things, ...however we are Christians not Jews. Even if the OT had female high-priests and governing Queens (apart from Athaliah) we'd still be stuck with what the NT says.

Paul to Ephesus 1C CE, wrote:

1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

I really wish Paul hadn't written this, and I'm all for bending it where possible. But it's not going away.

Hi Bitterlily
Can I ask what denomination does Stephen E. Jones' kingdom of god org fit into? It probably says it on the webpage but I can't see it. Smile

Thanks.

Question: What, if anything, does Stephen E. Jones say about

Quote:

1Co14:38 "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized."

For example about what exactly Paul wanted those who thought they were spiritual to recognise?

Likewise, what does Stephen E. Jones say how we are supposed to "not recognise" the ones who consider themselves inspired if the inspired don't recognise what Paul says?
God bless
Steven

luvnlife
Lion

Joined: 22 Feb 2007

Posts: 933

Location: US

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject:

Steven:

Quote:

Personally I'm all for a bit of cultural adjustment to make the important bits of the Gospel sit with modern life (Paul was too), but we've got to be honest about it, and we shouldn't try and shoehorn what Paul is saying to our own agendas (and we all have them), to either make what Paul says worse or better.
God bless
Steven

Well said!

Was Paul writing this admonition to us? Granted, he had a lot of wisdom to pass along but HE WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO A SPECIFIC CONGREGATION. So is it women in general Paul is referring to? Or was it women of THAT TIME under THAT LAW? Is it women of our time who you are inferring have an agenda? Or perhaps it could be men misinterpreting a letter that was meant for that particular troubled congregation at that particular time in history. By admitting that this directive was meant for that congregation at that time, men would have to give up or relinquish some of the power that they have traditionally had over women.

How can you say women are to be silent and at the same time acknowledge that both men and women will preach, that there were prophetesses in the bible and there are women who did prophecy in the bible? How would you ever take a women who prophesies seriously? Why would the bible mention women prophesying if this were improper?

Much Love, Luv

Steven3
Lion King

Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205

Location: UK

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:33 pm Post subject:

Hi Luvnlife

luvnlife wrote:

Well said!

Thanks

Quote:

Is it women of our time who you are infering have an agenda? Or perhaps it could be men misinterpreting a letter that was meant for that particular troubled congregation at that particular time in history.

Could be either. The feminist or liberal will talk up what the sisters were doing Corinth as a universal divinely sanctioned model, and talk down Paul's reply, wheras the chauvenist or conservative will talk down what the women were doing and talk up Paul's rules as if set in reinforced concrete.

As I said, we all have agendas. Got a gender? Then get agenda!! Laughing

:bad pun: :cringe: The key is to be aware of where we want the text to go before letting it lead us to our own conclusions. Smile

The fact that Corinth was an "outlier" (sorry for introducing a math term, can't think of a better word) is shown several times in 1Co by Paul's subtle, or unsubtle, reminders of what the other churches were doing:

Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 7:17 Only let each person lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches.

1 Corinthians 11:16 If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints

He doesn't usually keep repeating this...

So we can go two ways on this. Either discount all the bits of 1Co we don't like as irrelevant, or pick the bits we do like as universal instruction or license for every church. That goes for feminists and chauvenists, liberals and traditionalists - each can go on a cherry pick and come back with a completely different basket of cherries.

Basically we're safer with going first to letters to churches like Ephesus (1Tim), which weren't in a state of crisis and confusion, then go to Corinth for additional information. A case in point would be Paul saying "quiet" to Timothy in Ephesus, "silent" to Corinth. Corinth wasn't your typical 1st Century church. It's possible that Corinth's Jewish Synagogues were a bit 'out there' too.
God bless
Steven

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject:

Steven3 wrote:

Hi Bitterlily
Can I ask what denomination does Stephen E. Jones' kingdom of god org fit into? It probably says it on the webpage but I can't see it. Smile

Thanks.

Question: What, if anything, does Stephen E. Jones say about

Quote:

1Co14:38 "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized."

Hi Steven3,

Can I just make it clear that the things I have said here on this topic of women speaking in the church did not come from Stephen Jones. They are what I believe the Holy Spirit teaches (1 Co 2:6-16), and I have read all of Stephen Jones material and I don't recall him ever touching on these specific verses you quoted, but I do believe he has in many other ways acknowledged it. As for what denomination Stephen Jones belongs to he doesn't belong to any, well not any more. Here is a link that will give you a basic idea of Stephen Jones's stance.

Steven3 wrote:

Quote:

1Co14:38 "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized."

For example about what exactly Paul wanted those who thought they were spiritual to recognise?

I believe the answer to this question is found in the preceding verse which says:

Quote:

If anyone seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, they will acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 1Co 14:37

Steven3 wrote:

...how are we supposed to "not recognise" the ones who consider themselves inspired if the inspired don't recognise what Paul says?

I believe both these verses are telling us how to discern the God inspired person from the non-inspired person. The inspired or spiritual person will acknowledge that the things Paul wrote are the commandments of the Lord, the uninspired person will not acknowledge this and so should not be recognized or acknowledged by us as spiritual or inspired by God.

This verse is translated differently in the KJV but they both seem to be saying the same thing:

Quote:

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1Co 14:38

In Love
Bitterlily

bitterlily
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398

Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject:

Steven3 wrote:

Hi Luvnlife

luvnlife wrote:

Well said!

Thanks

Quote:

Hello again Steven3,

I think I shared some of what I am about to write in a pm to you but I wanted to elaborate on it more. A few years ago before finding Stephen Jones' website I had been studying all the writings at "Remnantbride" .com. The man there wrote some very amazing and I still believe God inspired stuff. One of which was a writing called "Coverings" where I was convinced into wearing a hat while praying. One time I emailed him asking whether I was supposed to wet a hat just while praying or all the time. His reply was to quote this verse, saying we are told to:

Quote:

Pray without ceasing. 1Th 5:17

So that was all it took for me to decide to wear a hat 24/7 Laughing

. Yes even in bed. Laughing

I wore that hat for about 3 years even though from his own writings I was convinced that the covering on women's heads was to be understood metaphorically, I was experiencing nightmares at the time and he convinced me that it could be due to my head not being covered.

Then one day he totally shocked me when in one of his writings he condemned the Apostle Paul for his open rebuke of Peter. He claimed that Paul should have humbled himself under the 12 Apostles and not gone off to create his own ministry to the gentiles. He even questioned whether his calling to the ministry was from the Lord. He accused Paul of being responsible for the APOSTASY Shocked

. As I mentioned to you in the pm, I came to Paul's defence and much of what I wrote in my post "Paul, An Apostle to the Gentiles" was from the letter that I wrote to this man. And that was the last time I visited his website.

This man's mistake began the day he believed he was inspired by God to proclaim that God had promised not to allow leaven to get into the Remnantbride message. In other words he was claiming to have been made infallible by God. It was only a matter of time before a big chunk of leaven sneaked in right under his nose. I tried to show him it, but do you think someone who told me to wear a hat was going to listen to a woman. #Nooo...not me!

This is an example of one of the greatest fallacies ever believed in the church and why I believe it is still propagated today. And that is the belief that women were the only ones ever in danger of being deceived. The history of the church should be example enough that all men are not only suseptible to the temptation of EVE but have been deceived in the same manner that Eve was. The truth of this historical fact supports what I was saying earlier, that Jesus is the Last Adam(Husband) and the Church the Last Eve(Wife).

Cheers Smile

Bitterlily

Steven3
Lion King

Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205

Location: UK

Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:10 am Post subject:

Hi Bitterlily
My mistake, I thought those also were ref to Stephen E. Jones' readings. Happy that they are yours Smile

bitterlily wrote:

Steven3 wrote:

1Co14:38 "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." For example ~ about what exactly Paul wanted those who thought they were spiritual to recognise?

I believe the answer to this question is found in the preceding verse which says:If anyone seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, they will acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 1Co 14:37

Steven3 wrote:

...how are we supposed to "not recognise" the ones who consider themselves inspired if the inspired don't recognise what Paul says?

I totally agree with both of those answers. We'd then just need to work out what Paul's "commands" are that he says are the acid test. The paragraph division in the ESV seems to suggest it primarily refers to "commands" 14:26-35 rather than the whole chapter (not that paragraph divisions are inspired!). And I'm not sure how many "commands" for the church actually are in 14:26-35. Five? Six? Seven? They mainly seem to be negative "don'ts" rather than "dos".

Quote:

This verse is translated differently in the KJV but they both seem to be saying the same thing: But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1Co 14:38

What does that mean? I'm not a big KJV fan, lots of pretty language but so-so translation. The ESV translation 38 "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." makes a lot more sense.

KJV - "But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."
ESV - "If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized." ie; Corinthians, don't recognize him.
NASB: But if anyone does not recognize [this], he is not recognized. (NASB ©1995)
GWT: But whoever ignores what I write should be ignored. (GOD'S WORD®)

God bless!
Steven

PS - I'd agree with you that Adam and Eve are types of the proto-husband and proto-bride, hence Christ and the Church, as Ephesians 5. But I'm not convinced that Paul is dealing on such a high typological level with the Corinthians.