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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | P wrote: | | I think that people who choose to go to Liberty University are probably a lot like Muslim women in that they just don't know any better. They've been brainwashed into believing that something which is not good for them (having their liberty curtailed) actually is good for them. |
So what you are basically saying is that people who do not think as you do, or believe what you believe - regardless of their intellect, their education, their autonomy, are brainwashed, closed-minded, and easily hoodwinked.
Very, very, open-minded of you P.... "If you don't accept what I like as truth then you are biased..."
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No, this is not what I believe. In fact, I believe that having a diversity of opinions in society is VITAL. Otherwise, what would happen if everyone thought like me, and when the Martians invade us, the idea I come up with to defend ourselves doesn't work?
I'm not against opposing opinions. What I AM against is people not being given all of the information so that they can make up their own minds.
Good examples are arranged marriages and burkhas... No woman in her right mind who has been exposed to western society BEFORE being oppressed would let her parents choose her husband for her. The same goes for wearing a veil. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm not against opposing opinions. What I AM against is people not being given all of the information so that they can make up their own minds. |
The problem is that you are assuming that everyone attending Liberty University have no other options, or are given no other options. An assumption based completely on what you WANT to beleive and in no way based on the facts.
What sources do you have that say the student body of Liberty University were forced to attend said university? Or that they didn't have opportunity to attend other institutions but chose Liberty instead? How many attended only private religious schools as opposed to public schools?
You are making conclusions based on nothing but the fact that someone doesn't agree with your opinion. and from my years of experience and education I can say that such is in no way indicative of open-mindedness. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
You are making conclusions based on nothing but the fact that someone doesn't agree with your opinion. and from my years of experience and education I can say that such is in no way indicative of open-mindedness. |
Most human beings have not been exposed to nearly enough differing viewpoints. Why are the kids at Liberty University any different?
If anything, the argument can be made that children growing up in religious homes, be they Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or whatever, are the archetypal examples of not being exposed to sufficiently many differing viewpoints. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If anything, the argument can be made that children growing up in religious homes, be they Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or whatever, are the archetypal examples of not being exposed to sufficiently many differing viewpoints |
Certainly the argument can be made, but that doesn't mean much. An argument can be made for just about any fallacious opinion. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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i think p38 has a point....
imagine an atheist house hold taking their children to synagogue on saturday, church on sunday....and what ever day the muslims meet to their little gathers....and maybe to a satanist ritual or two...they could get lucky and get to see a sacrifice .....maybe intoduce them to wicca stuff....let them meet some people who think they are real live witches and learn from them...  ...that is the only way to get true exposure to something....to really see and take part in it...not just reading about.... ...doing it...
maybe CHRISTian parents are bigots for not letting there 12-15 sons go on camping trips with 19-21 yr old gay man without other supervision....and by the same standard they would have to be bigots for not letting their 12-15 year old daughters go on camping trips with a 19-21 yr old straight man with no other supervision... .... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | i think p38 has a point....
imagine an atheist house hold taking their children to synagogue on saturday, church on sunday....and what ever day the muslims meet to their little gathers....and maybe to a satanist ritual or two...they could get lucky and get to see a sacrifice .....maybe intoduce them to wicca stuff....let them meet some people who think they are real live witches and learn from them... ...that is the only way to get true exposure to something....to really see and take part in it...not just reading about.... ...doing it...
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On that note, while I was in India I got to experience first-hand a Hindu ritual! It was pretty interesting.
| theseldomscene wrote: |
maybe CHRISTian parents are bigots for not letting there 12-15 sons go on camping trips with 19-21 yr old gay man without other supervision....and by the same standard they would have to be bigots for not letting their 12-15 year old daughters go on camping trips with a 19-21 yr old straight man with no other supervision... .... |
I was talking about introducing your children to ideas, not predators!
Here's a good example: there are plenty of Christian parents who home school their children. One of the reasons for doing this is so that the children are not exposed to Darwin's evil theory. There are A LOT of religious people out there who are purposefully kept from learning certain scientific ideas which are completely accepted by the scientific community, but are considered to be false by the religious people.
Just think about how many Christians have come to this board with completely misconstrued ideas about evolution, the Big Bang, abiogenesis, etc. This is because they were never exposed to the proper scientific sources. Their interpretations of these scientific ideas end up being complete caricatures, and that's really bad!
If you're going to reject something, then you should reject it only AFTER you understand what it is really saying. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you're going to reject something, then you should reject it only AFTER you understand what it is really saying. |
That's a good point P123...
Do you understand really what the bible is saying?
Have you studied it? looked at it from all angles?
proved without a doubt that it holds no weight and has no merit?
You should only reject it after you understand what it is really saying...
Because you said so.. 
hugs
Lone |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
That's a good point P123...
Do you understand really what the bible is saying?
Have you studied it? looked at it from all angles?
proved without a doubt that it holds no weight and has no merit?
You should only reject it after you understand what it is really saying...
Because you said so..
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Touchée, Lone, touchée...
But to answer your question, I have NEVER said that the Bible holds no weight and has no merit. In fact, I have repeatedly said that I very much like the teachings of Jesus Christ and try to live by them. These are arguably the most important parts of the Bible.
So I challenge your assertion that I have rejected the Bible.
I would argue that I am considerably more open to the Bible than many Christians are to atheism or evolution...
Another way to put it is that virtually nobody's ideas (provided they have been at all developed) are COMPLETELY worthless. You can even find some good stuff in Hitler's ideas. Good examples include the autobahn and the Volkswagen.
I see that there is plenty of good stuff in the Bible, and I willingly admit it.
By contrast, religious people tend to be much more willing to use 'all or nothing' reasoning. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would argue that I am considerably more open to the Bible than many Christians are to atheism or evolution... |
I personally don't have a problem with evolution. God said He made man from dirt. Well, there has to be some kind of process that goes from dirt to man.
And the bible also says that we are changed from glory to glory and then lists the different kinds of glories there are. So if we change from one to another, again there is some kind of process going on. And some call this process a mystery, some call it evolution, call the process whatever you will, it's still an "evolving" from one thing to another.
The earth was empty. God filled it up. It evolved.
You have clay in your hands. You put it on the wheel and you evolve it into a cup or plate or whatever..it's the process which takes place to get from one form to another. And that happens all the time. from the planting of a seed to a full grown tree, which breaks down and goes back to the dirt the seed came from. Our minds are dark..we become "enlightened" and then we are in the light.
So to me it's all evolution. It's just I like the mystery of it and not so much the cut and dry science of it.
Maybe the difference between you and me is, I believe that evolution is in the hands of the one who created evolution in the first place, and you just leave it up to a random chance happening... 
I jus don't know why religion and science have such a hard time working together though. Because God says..look at what I'm doing, and science says..see what has been done..
But religion gives credit to the maker where science says there is none. And neither side can prove that either side is all perfect in knowledge and understanding...
But what would be real cool is if we came together and have faith and trust that things will work out the way there supposed to.
Science isn't a bad thing..look at Daniel. God filled him with understanding science.
Dan 1:4 Children in whom [was] no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as [had] ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.
The difference is that Daniel was knowledgable and understanding in wisdom knowledge and science, and still gave credit where credit was due.
God tells us, go check out the ant you sluggard, watch the ostrich, you can tell when the sky is red...Job is filled with watching creation at work around us. This is science. And this is a mystery. And it's all awesome.
I just give credit to God and not to random chance.
God gave man the ability to seek and to search and to learn.
somewhere during the evolution process of dirt to man, man recieved a brain with the capacity to discern things.
Animals don't have this. they have instinct. I believe man has something more than just instinct, the ability to reason.
Where does reasoning come from? does it evolve from instinct? is it seperate from instinct?
I have to think too hard for those answers..LOL
It is my belief and my faith that God created a computer and then downloaded the programs into it. And each "kind" has it's own programming, given by the master programmer himself.
The program has to come from somewhere....
and this is where I believe religion and science divide.
It's the.."what caused the big bang?" thing.
I have faith that somewhere along the line religion and science will begin to understand that everything was created for a purpose. It just takes time...LOTS...
keep smiling..
Lone |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: |
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More assumptions P123...
| Quote: |
Here's a good example: there are plenty of Christian parents who home school their children. One of the reasons for doing this is so that the children are not exposed to Darwin's evil theory. There are A LOT of religious people out there who are purposefully kept from learning certain scientific ideas which are completely accepted by the scientific community, but are considered to be false by the religious people. |
My wife and I have been investigating home schooling for a few months now, and we have spoken to many groups of parents (about 75 families thus far) who home school to get an idea of how its best accomplished, etc. Almost always the topic comes up as to why they home school.
Our experience has been that 50% of families home school because they do not like the quality of education their children were getting in public school. 25% did not want their children in the enviroment of drugs, drinks, and other bad social influences, and 25% were a combination of both.
Not one, not one single family mentioned the teaching of evolution as a reason for them to home school.
Now then, I do not have exact figures but roughly 2/3 of the families we have talked to have no driving religious convictions - some were 'christian', but most were not. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
Now then, I do not have exact figures but roughly 2/3 of the families we have talked to have no driving religious convictions - some were 'christian', but most were not. |
That's probably just because you live in California which is a very liberal blue state. I watched a documentary on the subject not too long ago, and they claimed that something like 75% of home schooled children in America come from evangelical families.
They have entire 'textbooks' on how to teach science without evolution. Instead of explaining how natural selection and evolution work, they give arguments AGAINST evolution...
I'll dig up the documentary if you want me to and share it with you. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| You can if you would like, I'm simply pointing out that my personal experience and the experiences of many doesn't support your opinion. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | You can if you would like, I'm simply pointing out that my personal experience and the experiences of many doesn't support your opinion. |
Sure, but your experiences might only be relevant to California, and might not reflect the bigger picture in America.
Here is the documentary. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion about it:
http://www.torrentspy.com/torrent/917516/Jesus_Camp_DVDRIP |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sure, but your experiences might only be relevant to California, and might not reflect the bigger picture in America. |
Actually, my experience is with speaking with families all over the US. There are some very good home schooling organizations in this nation and they help organize families of home schooled children all over the country.
More locally they organize them into groups and schedule field trips and such. In fact, the Discovery Museum, the Planetarium at the local community college, the Indian Museum, the Railroad Museum, the Opera, UC Berkley, etc. are all places where homeschool groups in my area go on field trips, organize guest professors, etc. This is the kind of thing that happens all over this country.
Admittedly there are also religion based organizations out there, but I'm simply pointing out that your assertions are a part of the overall equation, not the predominant factor. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Allow me to acknowledge Lone's post concerning evolution and creation. Very well said Lone and I agree immensely.
May the Lord bless you. |
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