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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
| P123 wrote: |
By this definition, both Muslim women as well as the students at Liberty university are oppressed. |
That's ridiculous.
What I see is that you are asserting that a college age individual, who has demonstrated enough intelligence to garner an acceptance to a university, who then applies to a university knowing full well what the expectations for attendance (not to mention the costs associated with that attendance) are unknowingly being subjected to oppression without their knowing it. |
There are plenty of educated women on my campus (and my university really is an uncontroversial example of a 'proper' university) who wear headscarves. They claim that they WANT to wear them and that they are not being oppressed. What do you think of that?
I argue that probably the most effective form of repression and oppression is when it occurs in a person's mind and they willingly accept it.
Once you have freed people's minds, it is a relatively simple task to free their bodies. But if they themselves don't even want to free their minds, then there's absolutely no hope for freeing their bodies or free them as people. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | I argue that probably the most effective form of repression and oppression is when it occurs in a person's mind and they willingly accept it. |
 Hmmm... according to this definition... I would be repressed because I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior...
Funny, I always thought that was a form of liberty (no pun intended) from my sins.
| Quote: | | Once you have freed people's minds, it is a relatively simple task to free their bodies. But if they themselves don't even want to free their minds, then there's absolutely no hope for freeing their bodies or free them as people. |
Actually.. how this all works out P is that by stating you are freeing someone’s mind, you are implying that they are not free from a perspective you disagree with. Which, in a sense, is not being very open minded itself. Have you ever considered the idea... ideal... that following Christ... being Christian... and accepting Him... is liberating... and not a form of bondage? If so... what makes you think anyone would want to live their lives any other way?
I would also add... I believe this moral relativism (after all that is what it always boils too) is a form of bondage... a bondage that is beholden to what others think... believe is morally right or acceptable. If not, then you are thought of as being closed minded, narrow, in bondage to a perspective out of sinc with society... |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with Trinity. Because an intelligent, educated woman says she wears something you dislike, because she wants to, you claim she is under oppression.
That is stupid. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I agree with Trinity. Because an intelligent, educated woman says she wears something you dislike, because she wants to, you claim she is under oppression.
That is stupid. |
So when Islamic women say that they wear veils because they want to and not because they're forced to, and that they're not oppressed, you simply take them at their word?
I heard a woman talk today about leaving Islam, and she was VERY messed up by the entire experience. In fact, it was so dramatic for her that she's now got post-traumatic stress disorder. (And yes, she was an educated woman.)
Islamic women might tell themselves that they're not oppressed, but I'm not buying it.
You can believe that they're not oppressed if you want, but if you do, then I just don't think that you're looking at the evidence. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Why not? Who am I to determine if someone is lying or not? Am I somehow magical and can read someone's mind to know if they truly want to wear a blanket on their face or not?
I think what you may be edging toward is their religious conviction. They WANT to wear veils because it is their religious belief that they must. They CHOOSE to adhere to their religious convictions. Just as I am sure they CHOOSE not to lie, or steal, or murder, or undulate naked on the classroom flloor. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | Have you ever considered the idea... ideal... that following Christ... being Christian... and accepting Him... is liberating... and not a form of bondage? If so... what makes you think anyone would want to live their lives any other way?
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I'm not talking about you, Trinity. I'm talking about the kids who go to Liberty University. I think it would be much healthier for them to get some different perspectives first, rather than just going straight from Bible study to Bible university.
If they went out and got some different perspectives first (the way the Mormons have to do it), and still decided to go to Liberty University afterwards, then I would drop all of my claims of oppression.
The same goes for Muslim women. If they were to take off their veils, go date some guys who actually respect women for a while, and then if they come back and put on their veils after that, then I can respect that. Otherwise they simply don't have the experiences necessary for making an informed choice of what is best for them. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| How about those science camp geeks that go right from Honors science classes and straight into the myopic world of the university? Wouldn't hurt them to go out and see the real world before getting indoctrinated further into their narrow-minded and sheltered worlds. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | How about those science camp geeks that go right from Honors science classes and straight into the myopic world of the university? Wouldn't hurt them to go out and see the real world before getting indoctrinated further into their narrow-minded and sheltered worlds. |
That's just it... Science isn't closed-minded. It is one of the most open-minded pursuits that humans have ever come up with, and it has been IMMENSELY successful at helping us discover new knowledge. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Riiiiiggghhhhhttttt......  |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Riiiiiggghhhhhttttt...... |
Do you agree that it has been immensely successful in explaining the natural world / universe to us? |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | That's just it... Science isn't closed-minded. It is one of the most open-minded pursuits that humans have ever come up with, and it has been IMMENSELY successful at helping us discover new knowledge. |
Perhaps you missed that quotation from Euginie Scott... the Director of the National Science Education something of the rather... the head hog if you will. She thinks we should now make students take a vow of sorts promising not to speak ill of Chucky Darwin before we confer them with PhDs. Does that sound very ‘open-minded’ to you?
This is just plain silly P... it in its purest form, I have no reason to doubt that the method of science is not an open-minded pursuit. However, today... it is not. You must be beholden to the sacred cow in order to get anywhere in the pursuit... period. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: |
In the defense of Liberty, you really have to set you're limits WIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE, which means accepting things that you or I individually wouldn't never sign-up to.
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I absolutely agree. But one thing that liberty is not compatible with is giving oppressors the liberty to do their oppressing.... |
hmmm..that's the rub of living in an open society...I think the basic premise is "You have the right to believe what you want, associate with whom you want, and speak about what you want. You do not have the right to physically harm others."
I would argue we've gone a long way from this basic premise and there are plenty of historical examples where one group subjected another group to physical harm, but I'll try not to digress. I will say that while there is a philosophical connection between requiring women to wear burkhas (or not wear shorts) and female mutilation, legally and socially, I think they must be separated. In order for you to maintain the broadest personal freedom, the government must set its limits low (physical protection i.e, safe from physical harm) and not high (intellectual protection, i.e, not exposing you to "damaging images or thoughts"). The role of the family extends from the low through the high...but then we end up with alot of different viewpoints and opinions...oh wait..that's right...sorta the kind of thing you'd want and expect in a free and open society 
So, if you made it a law that women CAN'T wear burkhas, or people can wear whatever they want (including *gasp* shorts), then someone else (if they gained power) could pass a law that said all Canadians must wear a red Maple Leaf if they're English descent and a blue Maple Leaf if they're of French descent....you see where I'm going?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
I think that people who choose to go to Liberty University are probably a lot like Muslim women in that they just don't know any better. They've been brainwashed into believing that something which is not good for them (having their liberty curtailed) actually is good for them. |
That's probably true...but is it appropriate to force them away from that? Living in the US, they'll be exposed to all kinds of things...and they'll make choices...some might choose a life of crime or drugs, others will choose a life of ministry...listen, lots of strippers went to Catholic School....you're making victims of people that still have a brain, an intellect, the ability to reason, and the power of choice.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
...if anyone teaches that any of the Marxist governments ever implemented were good, then that is an objectively false statement. But it's not 'as' false as teaching Young Earth Creationism. |
first, I thought facts were either True or False...I didn't realize their was a relative scale to Truth? Young Earth Creationism is either True or False. Evoluton is either True or False. Marxism as and effective socio-economic model is either True or False.
Second, on marxism...you started out OK...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
For example, one could make the argument that in some communist countries, the governments cared about parks, and other social spaces and green spaces in their cities more than in the West. So communism wasn't worse in EVERY way, although it's pretty obvious that it was worse overall.
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but then you wavered You could make that argument, but it's a bad one. Parks are preferred over stable food supply? Adequate medical care? Public Education? Jobs? Communism hasn't actually been tried yet...anywhere...ever. The most advanced experiments are socialism, which still has a governing class (Animal Farms "some pigs are more equal than other pigs" statement comes up again)...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
One could also make the argument that the technology just wasn't there for implementing a centrally-planned economy, and that with modern computer networks, if they tried again, the results might be better. I doubt it, but it's not as obviously false as YEC doctrines... |
and then you lost the plot, which is a restatement of liberal left dogma that "Communism could work, if me and my friends were in charge because we're really smart, nice people that want to help others...." and avoids any real examination of how the world actually functions....
Here's a question for you...how would you like to be the guy that scrubs down the sewer system every day? In a computer-controlled-centrally planned economy that could happen...especially if we're really using communism where everyone does their part (ants in a colony)...that sound like something you'd like to do for 50 years? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| P wrote: | | I think that people who choose to go to Liberty University are probably a lot like Muslim women in that they just don't know any better. They've been brainwashed into believing that something which is not good for them (having their liberty curtailed) actually is good for them. |
So what you are basically saying is that people who do not think as you do, or believe what you believe - regardless of their intellect, their education, their autonomy, are brainwashed, closed-minded, and easily hoodwinked.
Very, very, open-minded of you P.... "If you don't accept what I like as truth then you are biased..."
oy vey |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
So, if you made it a law that women CAN'T wear burkhas, or people can wear whatever they want (including *gasp* shorts), then someone else (if they gained power) could pass a law that said all Canadians must wear a red Maple Leaf if they're English descent and a blue Maple Leaf if they're of French descent....you see where I'm going?
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I think you're misunderstanding my arguments. I am a BIG supporter of personal freedom. I don't think that the government should be able to keep you from wearing a burkha or from doing anything else you want, provided it isn't hurting anyone.
I am not saying that the government should do anything evil. All I'm saying is that the accreditation agencies should yank Liberty University's accreditation because it doesn't meet minimum standards. It's got a dinosaur fossil in the museum labeled as being 3000 years old! That's not ok! That's not up to minimum standards! That's what accreditation is for!
| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
I think that people who choose to go to Liberty University are probably a lot like Muslim women in that they just don't know any better. They've been brainwashed into believing that something which is not good for them (having their liberty curtailed) actually is good for them. |
That's probably true...but is it appropriate to force them away from that? |
Absolutely not. If someone wants to go to whatever university for whatever reason, then the government should have exactly no say in the matter. But accreditation is another issue. Liberty's accreditation should be yanked!
| Pondering wrote: |
first, I thought facts were either True or False...I didn't realize their was a relative scale to Truth? Young Earth Creationism is either True or False. Evoluton is either True or False. Marxism as and effective socio-economic model is either True or False.
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Not really. Simple topics can be framed as yes / no / true / false questions, but complicated topics can't. If you try to give a one word answer about pretty much any question concerning Marxism, then you're throwing an incredible amount of information away. Complicated questions should be discussed, and not oversimplified.
Ultimately you are right that Marxism sucks as an economic model, but do ALL possible implementations of it suck? That question isn't so clear, and shouldn't be answered with a single word. They probably do, but the topic is worth discussing.
| Pondering wrote: |
Here's a question for you...how would you like to be the guy that scrubs down the sewer system every day? In a computer-controlled-centrally planned economy that could happen...especially if we're really using communism where everyone does their part (ants in a colony)...that sound like something you'd like to do for 50 years? |
I'm getting the sense that you think I'm a communist or something and that I wasn't just playing devil's advocate...
I'm not a communist at all. I'm a firm believer in free-market capitalism, which is something that is in SERIOUS danger in America right now. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1285
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Fair 'nuff....
I was going more after the comments regarding "social conformity" rather than the accreditation issue...that's a separate issue and I'd tend to way in on your end of that argument...
and no, I don't think you're a Commie |
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