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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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 Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Steven3,
Hi, 
| Steve wrote: | | Given this it's more likely that all Ps82 shows is that the judges/princes thought they were "gods", or acted as capriciously as (pagan) "gods". |
Not necessarily. That isn't the context of that scripture.
It doesn't say they think they are gods, but:
Ps 82:6 “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods,
And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.
Who is the one saying this? The context does show it is God himself, but Jesus makes it clearer.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?
The "he" that called them gods was the Father. To say they weren't what the Father called them is to nullify the scriptures.
John 10 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
34Jesus answered them, `In your own books it is written that God said, "You are gods."
John 10:35 (The Message)
If God called your ancestors 'gods'—and Scripture doesn't lie—why do you yell, 'Blasphemer! Blasphemer!'
Take care. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Steven3:
What's the disagreement on this thread again??
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Hello Steven,
The disagreement arises from John 1:1. The JW's have re-written the scripture calling 'the Word' a god. They claim this re-write is a matter of Greek interpretation rather than a manipulation of scripture designed to support thier own theological doctrines. This claim though is wrought with problems. The 'a god' "interpretation" does not fit scholastically, biblically, pilosophically, scientifically, nor spiritually. TBax and I have discussed several of these.
As it pertains to this subject...... In the process of our discussions TBax has denied the infinitude of God, and has professed a belief in multiple gods. As you have pointed out he attempts to support the latter professed belief (erroneously as you have pointed out) by interpretating the scriptures as indicating there are indeed multiple gods....thus supporting the JW re-write of John 1:1.
That's the disagreement in a nutshell, you seem to have already understood that, but I thought I would take the opporunity to restate it anyway.
Steven, your view makes a lot of sense especially when we consider that the word of God is understood precept upon precept. Thank You. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hi TBax | TBax wrote: | Steven3, | Steve wrote: | | Given this it's more likely that all Ps82 shows is that the judges/princes thought they were "gods", or acted as capriciously as (pagan) "gods". |
Not necessarily. That isn't the context of that scripture.It doesn't say they think they are gods, but: Ps 82:6 “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High. |
No, true, not necessarily. To come to where I'm at one would have to have a developed sense of irony. I personally detect irony in the original Psalm, and irony in Christ's quote of it, but you're right I would have a hard time proving it as a concrete fact.
[Pause for thought, and re-read the verses...]
Okay, I guess what's sending up the needle on the ironometer is the incongruity of v.6 vs v.7. God first says "You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you," then "nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince". It sounds (subjective, I know) to my ears as if they themselves thought they were gods and, the real One God, is pulling them down to earth smack.
Proving Christ was using it with the same irony in John would be pretty well impossible unless irony in the original Psalm was already allowed.
One other thing, I mentioned already, but may have been passed over -- something in favour of irony in Ps82 from a lexical perspective. It's now fairly widely acknowledged that the Victorian belief that judges actually were (or could be called "elohim", is a mistake -- even if it's a mistake difficult to rectify given Grand Rapids churning out unannotated copies of Brown Driver Briggs -- based on a misreading of Hebrew "before God" in the urim and thummim passages. Of course people are pretty attached to the judges=elohim idea. In my own (Christadelphian) church some people cling to it like limpets. But all the same it's probably bogus.
Isaiah 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there an elohim besides me? ( הֲיֵשׁ אֱלוֹהַּ מִבַּלְעָדַי ) There is no Rock; I know not any.”
I realise that opens a can of worms. But anyway, even without opening that can, Ps82 lacks any parallel verses where God says "these men are gods". And oncers are not good foundation verses.
God bless
S. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dust | Dust wrote: | | That's the disagreement in a nutshell, you seem to have already understood that, but I thought I would take the opporunity to restate it anyway. |
Well thanks it does help, since it clarified that "I have said ye are gods" was being used to interpret John 1:1.
| Quote: | | Steven, your view makes a lot of sense especially when we consider that the word of God is understood precept upon precept. Thank You. |
Thanks but I wouldn't rush to welcome my view. I'm more of a heretic than TBax in that I don't believe Christ was even there at the Gen1 "beginning"  .
I should probably step back a bit - seeing as this is largely a discussion between the Athanasian (Trinity) and Arian (JW) perspectives, and from my Socinian (Unitarian/Christadelphian) perspective it doesn't really matter greatly either way.
Personally I think the JW New World Translation rendering of John 1:1 is slightly too forced "the Word was a god", but then so are the Fijian and Maori versions of John 1:1 At the creation of the universe was Jesus, the Word, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God" (but then, fair enough, that's what most non-Maoris and non-Fijians see when they look at the KJV anyway  ). And I'm not as dismissive of JW NWT as most, since it does in a few verses render things faithfully that have been politically corrected in other versions. That would be for another thread.
In fact John 1:1 should be another thread. This one is about Ps82 and Christ's use of it
S. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Steven3:
I don't believe Christ was even there at the Gen1 "beginning" |
Interesting, but I will not classifiy you as a heretic so soon. Would you believe that the Word/Logos was present in the beginning?
btw....TBax will disagree with your statement..."Ps82 lacks any parallel verses where God says these men are gods". In a classic example of twisting scripture he will cite the.....God making Moses a god to Pharaoh passage, erroneously taking this passage to indicate that Moses was made an actual god. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Dust | Dust wrote: | | Steven3 wrote: | | I don't believe Christ was even there at the Gen1 "beginning" |
Interesting, but I will not classifiy you as a heretic so soon. |
Be assured that I am, I don't believe in fallen angels being burnt forever nor dead people going up and down around without bodies either  | Quote: | | Would you believe that the Word/Logos was present in the beginning? |
Ah, depends which Logos and which Beginning?
Ps33:6 By the Word (Logos) of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the spirit of his mouth all their host.
Luk1:2 just as those who from the Beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word (Logos) have delivered them to us,
John 1:1 seems to wrap both creations together, but I'd read that for John the Logos and Beginning of Luke 1:2 precedes that of Ps33:6/Gen1:1.
| Quote: | | btw....TBax will disagree with your statement..."Ps82 lacks any parallel verses where God says these men are gods". In a classic example of twisting scripture he will cite the.....God making Moses a god to Pharaoh passage, erroneously taking this passage to indicate that Moses was made an actual god. |
Well if TBax does then it's not really twisting Exodus 7:1 is it, since in "And the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made you [like] God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet." The [like] isn't actually there in the Hebrew text. Personally I don't think Exodus 7:1 rules out God being ironic in calling corrupt magistrates "gods", but it isn't twisting the text, it's just not a very dynamic equivalent rendering
S |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 881
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Steven3:
Ah, depends which Logos and which Beginning? |
The Logos is the Logos no matter what beginning or what realm in which something of God might be revealed. You could, I suppose, talk about two different instances of Logos, but not two different Logos. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi Dust | Dust wrote: | | Steven3 wrote: | | Ah, depends which Logos and which Beginning? |
The Logos is the Logos no matter what beginning or what realm in which something of God might be revealed. You could, I suppose, talk about two different instances of Logos, but not two different Logos. |
Ultimately, yes, I do believe in only one Logos, because the idea/word/principle found flesh in Christ, was there in God's foreknowledge when He made the stars, birds and so on in order to beget Christ. But my one Logos is Galilee first, then Genesis - it's the exact mirror image of the one Logos doctrine of Athanasius found in coeternal preexistence.
So for terms of making it clear that Jesus was really conceived, began, started in 4BC - and is really son of his mother and Father -- I'd have to stress no, there are two different Logos -- to be true and clear.
Firstly anyone picking up a concordance would have to acknowledge that there are two Beginnings. (I can't see how anyone can deny that?). There's no sign in Psalm33:6 that the Logos there is Christ; it (not he) is described as the breath from God's mouth. Christ is not breath from God's mouth blowing on the waters in Gen1:2.
Likewise in John 1 there is some distinction between the John 1:1 Logos and the Logos made flesh introduced after John the Baptist in v.14 (illustrating that its the appearance of the 30year old Jesus, non the 9-months prior Jesus-foetus which is made flesh - I'm using "made flesh" in the Greek EGENETO sense of "was flesh", not "the prince was made into a frog").
Yes, John 1 is attempting to wrap the Ps33 Logos and Luke1:2 Logos together, as 1John1:1 does the same in a different way, nevertheless there are actually effectively two Logos. One in the old creation, one in the new.
Athanasian Trinitarians believe this as well, in effect. When the Genesis-Logos and God create Adam in their image ( ), the Genesis-Logos is a very different person from the from the Jesus-Logos, from the 9-months prior moment when God says to the Genesis-Logos, "Okay, in her you go, and I'm wiping your memory and making you temptable." No amount of verbal gymnastics and fudge is going to change the fact that the Genesis-Logos is, for Trinitarians, evidently a totally different creature than the Jesus-Logos who wore a flesh-suit for 33 years. (Genuinely sorry if that sounds flippant but it's difficult for me to totally subjugate discomfort at the Ovidian character of the whole story).
Only if the Jesus-Logos comes before the Genesis-Logos, does all the mystery about flesh-suit wearing, ear-entering, pretending to pray to himself, acting dead, etc. disappear into a very simple creed that little children can understand.
15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.
And that's all. No hidden sleight of hand going on behind the curtain.
God bless, and hope you're not offended too badly.
S |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:35 am Post subject: |
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Steven3,
Hi,
| Steven wrote: | | Isaiah 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there an elohim besides me? ( הֲיֵשׁ אֱלוֹהַּ מִבַּלְעָדַי ) There is no Rock; I know not any.” |
In Isaiah God was comparing himself with the gods the nations worshiped.
The Bible does properly call other mighty ones gods as well. It tells us Jehovah is the God of gods. And "elohim" is translated as angels in many Bibles in Psalm.
Deut 10: 17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods
King James: Ps 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
In direct reference to Ps 8:5-Heb 2:7 You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands.
Take care. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Hi TBax
What happened was this:
1. 3 of the "gods" verses in psalms were translated "angels" in the LXX. The context in each of the 3 cases shows why, the Alexandrian Jews were more sensitive to polytheistic language than the original Hebrew authors.
2. One of those "man lower than the gods" became "son of Man lower than angels", and was used by Judaist Christians to diminish Christ.
3. Consequently it was refuted in 2 Heb. "someone has said in a certain place".
4. Generations of later Christians said "Oh look the Psalm says "gods" and Heb2 says "angels", so "gods" can mean "angels".
5. And Brown Driver Briggs listed "angels" as a possible meaning for "gods". Not to mention Strongs and Youngs etc.
6. And now it's fact. A totally bogus fact, but one that people like and fits certain ways of thinking - doctrinal and linguistic - so is set in concrete. For ever.
7. Anyone arguing against it has as much chance as Canute.
I still believe what Isaiah said:
Isaiah 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there an elohim besides me? ( הֲיֵשׁ אֱלוֹהַּ מִבַּלְעָדַי ) There is no Rock; I know not any.”
But Isaiah and I are in a minority of two
S |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Steven3,
Hi,
How does your Bible read at Ps 8:5?
Who do you believe these "elohim" are?
Do you not believe Heb 2:7 is in direct reference to Ps 8:5?
Plus as mentioned Deut 10: 17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods . This tells me there are mighty ones that work in harmony with the Almighty one. These mighty ones are not to be worshiped, but are still called gods in the Bible.
| Steven wrote: | I still believe what Isaiah said:
Isaiah 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there an elohim besides me? ( הֲיֵשׁ אֱלוֹהַּ מִבַּלְעָדַי ) There is no Rock; I know not any.” |
As do I. Taken in context.
Later. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:11 am Post subject: |
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Hi TBax | TBax wrote: | | How does your Bible read at Ps 8:5? |
The ESV follows the Hebrew, "gods". | Quote: | | Who do you believe these "elohim" are? |
In Ps8:5? I don't know, but it says "gods", so I'm more impressed with commentators who take the text as it stands. The most cogent I've read relates it to celestial court imagery. But it is poetry after all. | Quote: | | Do you not believe Heb 2:7 is in direct reference to Ps 8:5? |
No, it's a reference to the LXX, all the OT quotes in Heb1&2 are LXX. | Quote: | | Plus as mentioned Deut 10: 17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods. This tells me there are mighty ones that work in harmony with the Almighty one. These mighty ones are not to be worshiped, but are still called gods in the Bible. |
That's one interpretation. The other is that it's a figure of speech to show how great God is, and all the gods are wood and stone.
| Quote: | | Steven wrote: | I still believe what Isaiah said:
Isaiah 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there an elohim besides me? ( הֲיֵשׁ אֱלוֹהַּ מִבַּלְעָדַי ) There is no Rock; I know not any.” |
As do I. Taken in context. |
I know. Believe me I have no intention or expectation of changing anyone's mind on this. The idea that there are other 'gods' apart from God is embedded deep into Trinitarian, JW, even Christadelphian thinking ~ many of my own Christadelphian brethren would think I was mad to even challenge this.
S |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Steven3,
Hi,
Do you believe Heb 2:7 is the inspired word of God? Or do you believe it has been corrupted?
Please explain LXX. I am thinking you are talking about a manuscript.
Later. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:31 am Post subject: |
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Hi TBax | TBax wrote: | | Do you believe Heb 2:7 is the inspired word of God? Or do you believe it has been corrupted? |
Yes of course it is inspired, even when quoting an uninspired version, and no the Heb2:7 Greek text as it stands in Nestle Aland is rock solid. | Quote: | | Please explain LXX. I am thinking you are talking about a manuscript. |
Ah, apologies, LXX is an abbreviation for the Greek OT, the Septuagint. All Heb1&2 quotes are from the Greek OT not the Hebrew OT. The Greek OT is a good translation, but its not inspired, and like the KJV can produce problems. Heb2:7 is dealing with one of those problems:
Ps 8 Hebrew = "man less than God (or the gods*)
Ps 8 Greek = "Son of Man less than angels"
Heb2 - addresses the problem in the Greek OT.
* it is impossible to tell if [i]elohim is singular or plural when it appears as predicate, without a verb or adjective.[/i]
God bless
S. |
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TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
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Steven3,
Hi,
If Heb 2:7 is indeed inspired of God then it is correct in applying "elohim" from Ps 8 to "angels" as Heb 2:7 shows. God's word is true and cannot be nullified.
Even if the writer penned it from the Septuagint, God didn't deny it.
Later. |
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