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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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 Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:31 am Post subject: Is God really three distinct persons? Sofyst vs. Apoc |
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Trinitarianism holds that God is three distinct persons, each of them being fully God.
Let me begin by asking sofyst how the three could logically be distinct while each being fully God: What distinguishes each person from the other if each possesses every attribute of God? |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| apoc wrote: | | Let me begin by asking sofyst how the three could logically be distinct while each being fully God: What distinguishes each person from the other if each possesses every attribute of God? |
I think we would first have to attempt to discover a working definition of 'person'. Which I am quite ready to discover, with your help of course.
I think as well that a parallel (shaky one though) can be drawn in understanding humanity. Every human possesses every attribute of humanity, yet there is distinctiveness between each human. That distinctiveness is of course that every human possesses different personality. Whatever it is that makes a human human, each human has this (let us call this fundamental thing 'humanity'). Every human has 'humanity'. Yet every human is distinguished between each other in that while still possessing 'humanity' each likewise possesses a distinct attribute different than all the rest that is called 'personality'.
I hope that helps, or at least sends us in a working direction... |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
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sofyst,
Humanity is not a being. Is God a being? As for God being three persons, you have agreed that this is the case. Why don't you come up with a working definition of 'person' for us?  |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: |
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Humanity may not be a 'being', as God is, but there is a parallel between 'humanity' and 'deity'. That is the comparison I was making. Just as you and I share the thing called 'humanity', God has that which is called 'deity'. God's 'deity' seperates Him from us in that we haven't 'deity' and He does (in the same way we have 'humanity' and He did not - prior to the incarnation that is of course).
So, we have humans sharing 'humanity' and God alone being the only one whom has 'deity'. Understood?
Now, within humanity there are multiple 'beings', yet within deity, there is but one 'being'. This is what seperates us from the polytheist or the pagans. We have then multiple beings sharing a common humanity, and a single being having alone deity.
We then need to discuss what exactly it means to have individual 'persons' within this humanity or deity. It must be noted that there is a difference between being and person, as is made evident by the Trinity. There is one being, one deity, multiple persons. It seems that 'person' and 'being' are not necessarily coterminous in deity as they are in humanity.
In attempting to give a working definition of 'person', I would tend to draw close similarities to consciousness. I have always thought that what differences us from the animals is in that we are rational consicous creatures, whereas they are not. The 'breath of God', or the 'image of God', I think, is the rationality or consciousness of man.
The difference in me and you, although we both share a commonality-humanity-is that my consciousness is different than your own. I think differently than you do and seperate than yourself.
I think this is where we need to focus our discussion on the differences in God. Jesus thought differently than the Father, and according to Scripture the different members of the God-head communicated with each other. Communication cannot occur between a one-conscious being and therefore two (at least) different rationales must be posited (as they are within Scripture).
p.s. I ask your forgiveness for any mispellings I have of the word 'conscious'. I have never been able to spell that word and think it a thorn within my flesh. It is a pain in the bum. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Now, within humanity there are multiple 'beings', yet within deity, there is but one 'being'. This is what seperates us from the polytheist or the pagans. We have then multiple beings sharing a common humanity, and a single being having alone deity. |
So then, what is the similarity between humanity and deity that you are arguing for?
Let us talk a bit about the three Persons of the Trinity and what distinguishes one from the other. They are all one in Being, as you assert, and they are each fully God, correct? What possible distinctions, then, can we make between the three? |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So then, what is the similarity between humanity and deity that you are arguing for? |
The similarities are quite evidently simple if one is not attempting to make more difficult the painfully simple. Within humanity there are multiple persons that share a commonality that is called 'humanity', and likewise within deity there are multiple persons that share a commonality that is called 'deity'. Quite simple actually...
| Quote: | | Let us talk a bit about the three Persons of the Trinity and what distinguishes one from the other. They are all one in Being, as you assert, and they are each fully God, correct? What possible distinctions, then, can we make between the three? |
One of the clearest distinctions is in the Biblical fact that the Son, Jesus, took upon flesh and died, whereas the Father and Spirit never did. Do you contest this fact? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Within humanity there are multiple persons that share a commonality that is called 'humanity', and likewise within deity there are multiple persons that share a commonality that is called 'deity'. Quite simple actually... |
And there the similarity ends, for humanity is not a being. This commonality is thus useless for your purposes.
Quote:
Let us talk a bit about the three Persons of the Trinity and what distinguishes one from the other. They are all one in Being, as you assert, and they are each fully God, correct? What possible distinctions, then, can we make between the three?
| Quote: | | One of the clearest distinctions is in the Biblical fact that the Son, Jesus, took upon flesh and died, whereas the Father and Spirit never did. Do you contest this fact? |
I do not contest this, although I do not see how this answers my question. If the Son is fully God with the Father and Spirit, then it is logically impossible for there to be any distincitions between them. |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And there the similarity ends, for humanity is not a being. This commonality is thus useless for your purposes. |
But again Apoc, humanity needn't be a 'being' for my argument to be valid, as I have no where argued that deity is being. Humanity is not a being, but A HUMAN is. Just as deity is not a being, but God is. I cannot truly see why you are getting confused here. You are making too much of the simple. Hopefully it is not intentional.
| Quote: | | I do not contest this, although I do not see how this answers my question. If the Son is fully God with the Father and Spirit, then it is logically impossible for there to be any distincitions between them. |
Anyone who knows anything about logic knows it is not wise to go throwing around the 'logically impossible' idea too frequently. Especially when it relates to Scripture.
So I see us as having two different courses we can take. I can show you from the Scripture the full deity of Christ and of the Father, and likewise their separation. We then would either have to reject the Scripture as positing the 'logically impossible', or we would have to say that perhaps our finite minds in attempts to understand the 'logical' fail miserably and cannot see clearly. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But again Apoc, humanity needn't be a 'being' for my argument to be valid, as I have no where argued that deity is being. Humanity is not a being, but A HUMAN is. Just as deity is not a being, but God is. I cannot truly see why you are getting confused here. You are making too much of the simple. |
But, sofyst, your analogy does nothing by way of making logical sense out of the notion that God is one being yet three distinct persons who are each fully God. God consists in one being whereas humanity consists in many beings, therefore your analogy is useless for your purposes.
| Quote: | | Anyone who knows anything about logic knows it is not wise to go throwing around the 'logically impossible' idea too frequently. Especially when it relates to Scripture. |
Why do you say that? Do you think it is ok to read logically incongruent notions into Scripture?
| Quote: | | So I see us as having two different courses we can take. I can show you from the Scripture the full deity of Christ and of the Father, and likewise their separation. We then would either have to reject the Scripture as positing the 'logically impossible', or we would have to say that perhaps our finite minds in attempts to understand the 'logical' fail miserably and cannot see clearly. |
If you are going to assert something, it had better not be logically contradictory, wouldn't you agree? |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | But, sofyst, your analogy does nothing by way of making logical sense out of the notion that God is one being yet three distinct persons who are each fully God. God consists in one being whereas humanity consists in many beings, therefore your analogy is useless for your purposes.
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When considering the relationship between being and person (meaning whether multiple persons can share one being), I understand that the analogy is not helpful. But it was never posited for that purpose. It was however given to understand the idea between multiple persons sharing a unique 'attribute' or thing, whatever we call humanity or deity (perhaps a nature???).
| Quote: | | Why do you say that? Do you think it is ok to read logically incongruent notions into Scripture? |
No, it is never good to read things into Scripture that are illogical, but if Scripture posits something, and if at first glance we assume it to be illogical, we either have to accept that it is not illogical and we haven't infinite knowledge to understand why, or we have to accept that it is illogical and reject Scripture as an illogical source - something that should not be considered in reasoning.
| Quote: | | If you are going to assert something, it had better not be logically contradictory, wouldn't you agree? |
I agree completely. My stance is that it may appear to be logically contradictory (as the idea of a loving God that hates sin yet still loves those that are outside of Himself appears to be logically contradictory to me). But while it may appear to be logically contradictory, I recognize that I am finite and not yet (ever) in possession of perfect knowledge and reasoning. Therefore I cannot reject whole-heartedly something that appears to me, a finite human, to be logically contradictory. I can accept it with faith.
And to be technical, I am not asserting anything, I am merely recognizing the clear Biblical example of one single God, and yet three different persons that distinguish themselves from each other holding to this position of a singular God.
I think we may need to move our discussion into the Biblical or exegetical realm. Both you and I would agree that the Scriptures posit that there is but one God, therefore we needn't touch upon that subject. But I think we may need to discuss the deity of each of the persons in question. We need to discuss their differences, and determine whether Scripture distinguishes them as distinct individuals. Would you agree?[/quote] |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sofyst, this is not a matter of an idea appearing to be logically contradictory to our finite minds. If I tell you that God is omnipotent yet lacking in power, I am asserting a logical contradiction, no matter how you slice it. If I tell you that two different people are identical in every single trait of their personality, that too would be logically impossible. Or do you not believe that each Person of the Trinity shares all the same attributes? If not, how can you say that they are each fully God? |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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First, tell me why this would be logically impossible:
| Quote: | | If I tell you that two different people are identical in every single trait of their personality, that too would be logically impossible. |
Why can two different people not be identical in every single trait of their personality? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Because by definition a person is a totality of qualities/traits/attributes. |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| apocatastasis wrote: | | Because by definition a person is a totality of qualities/traits/attributes. |
Perhaps so, but by definition (whose definition you are using? I haven't a clue) if a person is a totality of qualities/traits/attributes how does this exclude the possibility of another person being the totality of qualities/traits/attributes likewise.
Going back to my humanity/deity idea. A human is by definition a person possessing the trait of humanness. But this doesn't mean that because a person must possess this trait to be considered human, that they alone can possess this trait without any other person possessing this trait.
Jesus can be a person possessing the totality of qualities/traits/attributes that make one deity, and so can the Father. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | if a person is a totality of qualities/traits/attributes how does this exclude the possibility of another person being the totality of qualities/traits/attributes likewise. |
Are you asking me why it is impossible for there to be two of the same person?
| Quote: | | A human is by definition a person possessing the trait of humanness. But this doesn't mean that because a person must possess this trait to be considered human, that they alone can possess this trait without any other person possessing this trait. |
I dig.
| Quote: | | Jesus can be a person possessing the totality of qualities/traits/attributes that make one deity, and so can the Father. |
Are you saying that they are identical, or will you argue that each Person of the trinity possesses traits that are extraneous to God? Think about this carefully now, old friend. |
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