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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: |
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So when little Johnny throws a rock at Sally, and the teacher says to him, "How would you like it if someone threw rocks at you? Remember what the Golden Rule says.", the teacher is in fact violating the intent of scripture?
(For the time being, let's assume that the ACLU doesn't get involved. -Just a little joke.)
Or even better, any time someone TEACHES the Golden Rule to someone else, they are violating its intent? After all, you did say that the Golden Rule is purely internal, and you shouldn't externalize it. Telling others to obey it is about as external as you can get, which means that teaching it to others is not ok.
If I can't suggest to people that they obey the Golden Rule, then why can preachers do so?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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I wonder P123... do you actually READ anything I post?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I wonder P123... do you actually READ anything I post? |
Believe it or not, yes. You just have an incredibly stringent adherence to the literal interpretation of words. In my opinion discussion requires a bit of latitude.
You said that it is not ok to apply the Golden Rule externally, and that doing so is self righteous.
But preachers teach the Golden Rule to their flocks all the time, and when they do it, it is perfectly fine.
But for some reason, when I try to do the same, I get in trouble...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: |
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You are not recognizing the distinction between teaching something and applying something.
I can teach you about proper diet, but you apply such to yourself. You can teach someone else about proper diet but when you try to apply that to them you infringe on their rights, or what have you.
The golden rule is taught by those who teach so the student can then apply it to their lives.
Religion on the other hand, teaches and then attempts to externally apply such. As I said; your approach is akin to religion.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | You are not recognizing the distinction between teaching something and applying something.
I can teach you about proper diet, but you apply such to yourself. You can teach someone else about proper diet but when you try to apply that to them you infringe on their rights, or what have you.
The golden rule is taught by those who teach so the student can then apply it to their lives.
Religion on the other hand, teaches and then attempts to externally apply such. As I said; your approach is akin to religion. |
Ok, let's for the sake of argument say that I concede that I'm violating the spirit of the Golden Rule by asking my question about smoking near others. This is completely immaterial. This discussion isn't about me; it's about the smokers.
Let me ask you two questions:
1. If someone who doesn't like it when his neighbors play loud music himself plays loud music, is that a violation of the Golden Rule?
2. If someone who doesn't want others to expose him to carcinogens has no qualms about exposing them to carcinogens, is that a violation of the Golden Rule?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm thinking you are missing the point trinity originally made concerning the 'golden rule'.
The question isn't about if someone else was violating the golden rule, but one of your reaction to that person and whether or not that reaction violates the golden rule.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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The Golden Rule does not imply that one should suffer, to whatever degree, at the hands of every inconsiderate nitwit that comes down the pike. The idea, when carried out that way, would mean that I should stay off the road because of all the insane "Me first" mentalities out there.
I think JP could well apply the Golden Rule, Luke 6:41, and also Matthew 7:5 to himself in the Jehovah's Witness forum, and simply walk away from it.
Last edited by Pete on Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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Pete, please be considerate of discussions in process and place your comments regarding other threads in the threads they pertain to.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Practice what you preach, here and elsewhere. You brought it up. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I'm thinking you are missing the point trinity originally made concerning the 'golden rule'.
The question isn't about if someone else was violating the golden rule, but one of your reaction to that person and whether or not that reaction violates the golden rule. |
RevJP, I understand your position. But now I am specifically asking you two questions:
1. If someone who doesn't like it when his neighbors play loud music himself plays loud music, is that a violation of the Golden Rule?
2. If someone who doesn't want others to expose him to carcinogens has no qualms about exposing them to carcinogens, is that a violation of the Golden Rule?
Or are these 'illegal questions'?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 1. If someone who doesn't like it when his neighbors play loud music himself plays loud music, is that a violation of the Golden Rule? |
If it were me I would like to think I would respond in a manner which is consistent with how I would want to be treated.
| Quote: | | 2. If someone who doesn't want others to expose him to carcinogens has no qualms about exposing them to carcinogens, is that a violation of the Golden Rule? |
For myself, I would think that my doing to them that which I would not want to be done to me would be a 'violation' of the golden rule.
| Pete wrote: | | You brought it up. |
I'm sorry, after reviewing this thread I don't see where I brought up anything concerning another thread. Perhaps I missed it though, would you be kind enough to demonstrate where I have done so?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| JP, a Hint: Try page 6. You made reference to Luke 6:31. And when it comes to staying on topic, what does any of this have to do with creation and evolution? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | JP, a Hint: Try page 6. You made reference to Luke 6:31. And when it comes to staying on topic, what does any of this have to do with creation and evolution? |
Oh I see! On page six P123... began speaking about the 'golden rule' and after 11 posts regarding that idea I quoted Luke 6:41 and referenced the 'golden rule' which is Luke 6:31
Luk 6:31 And as you would like and desire that men would do to you, do exactly so to them.
So you are saying because I was addressing the topic under discussion in this particular thread I did the same thing you did and should practice what I preach?
You do realize the differences in play here don't you Pete? I was discussing an already established topic in a thread and you brought in a criticism from an entirely different thread from an entirely different forum.
I'm not sure I can follow the logical inconsistencies you are presenting Pete.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | 1. If someone who doesn't like it when his neighbors play loud music himself plays loud music, is that a violation of the Golden Rule? |
If it were me I would like to think I would respond in a manner which is consistent with how I would want to be treated.
| Quote: | | 2. If someone who doesn't want others to expose him to carcinogens has no qualms about exposing them to carcinogens, is that a violation of the Golden Rule? |
For myself, I would think that my doing to them that which I would not want to be done to me would be a 'violation' of the golden rule. |
Thank you for humoring my questions. That's really the only point I was trying to make. Apart from my willingness to externalize the Golden Rule as well as my willingness to judge, it sounds like you agree with my point.
I guess I could have saved a lot of time by just asking the question slightly differently:
If you were to smoke around people who don't like it, would that be a violation of the Golden Rule?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you were to smoke around people who don't like it, would that be a violation of the Golden Rule? |
Possibly.
If I were in a park and there was lots of space around and I was sitting on a bench designated as a smoking area then I would say their like or dislike would be none of my concern. Or, if I was not aware they didn't like it then again, how would I know?
I might have lost something in the relating of your story, but did you mention to the gentlemen that you did not appreciate his smoking in an area not designated for such?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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